How was your 2012 season?

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Mountain Man
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Re: How was your 2012 season?

Unread postby Mountain Man » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:38 am

I did a little research last night on photoperiodism in birds and it seems that photoperiodism is the driving force behind breeding activity in the north (and photoperiodism also controls migration timing in migratory birds and moulting in birds like turkeys) b/c the breeding still needs to occur within a certain window of time for success however I also found that weather (i.e temperatures) and food availability also affect breeding and can move it up a few weeks or delay it a few weeks if it's a later/cooler spring. With the earlier spring this year some breeding would have occurred earlier than normal. So based on what I found we were all right to some degree.


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UPbowhunter
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Re: How was your 2012 season?

Unread postby UPbowhunter » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:14 am

I dont buy it mountain. If the birds got the weather they dont need a window. They arnt waiting for a warm up like deer have too. Weather, hunting pressure, food supply, age structure, all things they use to justify their theorys not being exactly right. A few weeks either way is a month and a half! which is almost two moons, dosent really make much sense to me. I like to watch what is going on in the feilds. Some things are real simple and dont need explainin, to me.
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Spysar
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Re: How was your 2012 season?

Unread postby Spysar » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:21 am

I think turkeys breed a lot sooner than people think. If they are gobbling they are breeding. I've heard them as early as Feb. And I bet photoperiodism is what starts them gobbling. That being said, I believe hens have the ablitly to store sperm in their bodies for some time. So just because they're breeding dosen't nessesrily mean the hen is nesting that day. They probably do it when they feel comfortable doing it. I know there is some sort of rather large window in nesting times. I can tell that by how many different size poults I see at the end of summer. Deer have a shorter window to breed than turkeys, so they can ensure their young will be born at the correct time.

Now this thread is totally off topic...

My season wasn't that great. There were TONS of toms right by my house. In my yard even. But they got a free pass cause I was enjoying watching them and hearing them everyday. I hunted the public near my house. Got in an almost arguement with a guy in the woods. He tried to walk faster than me and walk around me. I was like, WTF! I had a confrontation with the dude. He told me that he was gonna hunt here no matter what I was doing, blah,blah, blah. I said do what you want, but I live here, and you'll never beat me here, and I'll always be around. And I have cams out, and my land is posted. And you sir, are (messed up)! Trying to cut someone off that was here first, and you SAW me here, and saw my bike parked on the trail, is ludacris! :twisted: Yeah, I was mad. Haven't seen him since. :?
A buck will see you three times, and hear you twice, but he's only gonna smell you once.
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Mountain Man
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Re: How was your 2012 season?

Unread postby Mountain Man » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:26 am

UPbowhunter wrote:I dont buy it mountain. If the birds got the weather they dont need a window. They arnt waiting for a warm up like deer have too. Weather, hunting pressure, food supply, age structure, all things they use to justify their theorys not being exactly right. A few weeks either way is a month and a half! which is almost two moons, dosent really make much sense to me. I like to watch what is going on in the feilds. Some things are real simple and dont need explainin, to me.


We did get off topic from Ack's original post but I have to defend my position.

UPbowhunter - I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree. I'm going by what I read in the scientific journals. Photoperiodism controls the time frame of when they are capable of breeding. The weather can influence when during that time frame actual breeding occurs. According to your theory, if it was unseasonably warm enough in December or January (months with the shortest amount of daylight), then you are saying turkeys could breed then but that can't happen because photoperiodism won't allow a wild turkey's body to be able to breed at that time of year in the wild in a northern state. It's reproductive system is not ready for breeding at that time of year.

On a similar note, breeding in captive birds can be controlled with photoperiodism too just like deer.

Here are scientific journal articles stating photoperiodism is the main control and that there are other factors that control breeding during that window of time caused by photoperiodism.

From the Journal of Biological Rhythms

http://www.jncasr.ac.in/chronobiology/VK3.pdf

Photoperiodic Control of Seasonality in Birds
1. Alistair Dawson
1. Centre for Ecology and Hydrology, Monks Wood, Abbots Ripton, Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire, PE28 2LS, UK
1. Verdun M. King
1. Department of Anatomy, University of Cambridge, Downing Site, Cambridge CB2 3DY, UK
1. George E. Bentley
1. Gregory F. Ball
1. Department of Psychology, Johns Hopkins University, 3400 N. Charles Street, Baltimore, MD 21218-2686, USA
Abstract
This review examines how birds use the annual cycle in photoperiod to ensure that seasonal events—breeding, molt, and song production—happen at the appropriate time of year. Differences in breeding strategies between birds and mammals reflect basic differences in biology. Avian breeding seasons tend to be of shorter duration and more asymmetric with respect to changes in photoperiod. Breeding seasons can occur at the same time each year (predictable) or at different times (opportunistic), depending on the food resource. In all cases, there is evidence for involvement of photoperiodic control, nonphotoperiodic control, and endogenous circannual rhythmicity. In predictable breeders (most nontropical species), photoperiod is the predominant proximate factor. Increasing photoperiods of spring stimulate secretion of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) and consequent gonadal maturation. However, breeding ends before the return of short photoperiods. This is the consequence of a second effect of long photoperiods—the induction of photorefractoriness. This dual role of long photoperiods is required to impart the asymmetry in breeding seasons. Typically, gonadal regression through photorefractoriness is associated with a massive decrease in hypothalamic GnRH, essentially a reversal to a pre-pubertal condition. Although breeding seasons are primarily determined by photoperiodic control of GnRH neurons, prolactin may be important in determining the exact timing of gonadal regression. In tropical and opportunistic breeders, endogenous circannual rhythmicity may be more important. In such species, the reproductive system remains in a state of “readiness to breed” for a large part of the year, with nonphotic cues acting as proximate cues to time breeding. Circannual rhythmicity may result from a temporal sequence of different physiological states rather than a molecular or cellular mechanism as in circadian rhythmicity. Avian homologues of mammalian clock genes Per2, Per3, Clock, bmal1, and MOP4have been cloned. At the molecular level, avian circadian clocks appear to function in a similar manner to those of mammals. Photoperiodic time measurement involves interaction between a circadian rhythm of photoinducibility and, unlike mammals, deep brain photoreceptors. The exact location of these remains unclear. Although the eyes and pineal generate a daily cycle in melatonin, this photoperiodic signal is not used to time seasonal breeding. Instead, photoperiodic responses appear to involve direct interaction between photoreceptors and GnRH neurons. Thyroid hormones are required in some way for this system to function. In addition to gonadal function, song production is also affected by photoperiod. Several of the nuclei involved in the song system show seasonal changes in volume, greater in spring than in the fall. The increase in volume is, in part, due to an increase in cell number as a result of neurogenesis. There is no seasonal change in the birth of neurons but rather in their survival. Testosterone and melatonin appear to work antagonistically in regulating volume.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2606722/

Control of the annual cycle in birds: endocrine constraints and plasticity in response to ecological variability

ABSTRACT
This paper reviews information from ecological and physiological studies to assess how extrinsic factors can modulate intrinsic physiological processes. The annual cycle of birds is made up of a sequence of life-history stages: breeding, moult and migration. Each stage has evolved to occur at the optimum time and to last for the whole duration of time available. Some species have predictable breeding seasons, others are more flexible and some breed opportunistically in response to unpredictable food availability. Photoperiod is the principal environmental cue used to time each stage, allowing birds to adapt their physiology in advance of predictable environmental changes. [/b] Physiological (neuroendocrine and endocrine) plasticity allows non-photoperiodic cues to modulate timing to enable individuals to cope with, and benefit from, short-term environmental variability. [b]Although the timing and duration of the period of full gonadal maturation is principally controlled by photoperiod, non-photoperiodic cues, such as temperature, rainfall or food availability, could potentially modulate the exact time of breeding either by fine-tuning the time of egg-laying within the period of full gonadal maturity or, more fundamentally, by modulating gonadal maturation and/or regression. The timing of gonadal regression affects the time of the start of moult, which in turn may affect the duration of the moult. There are many areas of uncertainty. Future integrated studies are required to assess the scope for flexibility in life-history strategies as this will have a critical bearing on whether birds can adapt sufficiently rapidly to anthropogenic environmental changes, in particular climate change.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677614/

Temperature has a causal effect on avian timing of reproduction

Abstract
Many bird species reproduce earlier in years with high spring temperatures, but little is known about the causal effect of temperature. Temperature may have a direct effect on timing of reproduction but the correlation may also be indirect, for instance via food phenology. As climate change has led to substantial shifts in timing, it is essential to understand this causal relationship to predict future impacts of climate change. We tested the direct effect of temperature on laying dates in great tits (Parus major) using climatized aviaries in a 6-year experiment. We mimicked the temperature patterns from two specific years in which our wild population laid either early (‘warm’ treatment) or late (‘cold’ treatment). Laying dates were affected by temperature directly. As the relevant temperature period started three weeks prior to the mean laying date, with a range of just 4°C between the warm and the cold treatments, and as the birds were fed ad libitum, it is likely that temperature acted as a cue rather than lifting an energetic constraint on the onset of egg production. We furthermore show a high correlation between the laying dates of individuals reproducing both in aviaries and in the wild, validating investigations of reproduction of wild birds in captivity. Our results demonstrate that temperature has a direct effect on timing of breeding, an important step towards assessing the implication of climate change on seasonal timing.
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Re: How was your 2012 season?

Unread postby UPbowhunter » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:57 am

Mountain you have to understand Im not disagreeing with you I just dont beleive the theory. So im disagreeing with the info you are presenting by some one else. I will ensure you that the captive breeding they are stateing is in a heated enviroment. It wont work if its cold. I beleive what I see, and Ive seen late feb breeding when it gets warm for a period. Granted Im sure those eggs/chicks didnt make it, but thats why they will go right back to breeding. They will breed out into july every year here. I just completely disagree with this theory for wild turkeys, from what ive seen.
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Re: How was your 2012 season?

Unread postby Mountain Man » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:48 am

UPbowhunter wrote:...So im disagreeing with the info you are presenting by some one else. I will ensure you that the captive breeding they are stateing is in a heated enviroment. It wont work if its cold. I beleive what I see, and Ive seen late feb breeding when it gets warm for a period. Granted Im sure those eggs/chicks didnt make it, but thats why they will go right back to breeding. They will breed out into july every year here. I just completely disagree with this theory for wild turkeys, from what ive seen.


The captive breeding probably is a heated environment but the fact remains the heat alone is not causing them to breed, it's photoperiodism and heat. I agree it won't work if it's cold in a captive or wild environment.

I don't know exactly when turkeys can start breeding as I'm sure there is a little variation but it seems possible the combination of photoperiodism and an early shot of warm weather could allow turkeys to breed by late Feb. I think that's within a reasonable time frame and the beginning of when photoperiodism kicks in for breeding and is still consistent with the scientific studies of wild birds.

I don't doubt what you saw. I think this whole turkey breeding window needs to be looked at from a step back and in generalities where both my photoperiodism argument and your weather argument do overlap and breeding time does vary each year during a time period that may extend from say Feb. to June or July.

I think what you saw is like deer where as soon as a buck sheds his velvet he is capable of breeding (for turkeys maybe they can start breeding in Feb.). The buck may find a freak doe that goes into estrous early, maybe even in September or by early Oct (which does happen), and he can breed her but if the fawn is born too early it may die. In your case, like you said, the turkeys can breed early in their breeding season but maybe when it's time to lay eggs the weather changes and gets too cold and the eggs don't survive and they end up breeding again.
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Re: How was your 2012 season?

Unread postby UPbowhunter » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:47 am

Im not sure but I would beleive a male turkey would breed anytime, it ALL HAS TO DO with the HENS. I guess what Im saying Moutain if they could breed anytime from Feb to July How much could photo have on it? Its all temp. There has to be set amount of Photo that triggers it, which would be allmost a set day each year, right? If thats the case then it really shouldnt peek much different each year, but most TURKEY HUNTERS will tell you every year if there is an early warm up breeding starts early, they SEE it because there out there by the birds. Again Im just sayin what I see, not what someone is telling me from a lab. So im not argueing with you cause you are just passin along someone elses theory. I am kind of like Dan when it comes to turkey I learned everything from just going after birds, My father never seen a turkey til I was allready hunting them.
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Re: How was your 2012 season?

Unread postby gjs4 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:20 pm

Fact- on days i heard nothing i had buddies within 10 miles buried in gobblers/gobbling

What i learned this year; A casual approach has paid off way more than trying hard for this guy
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Re: How was your 2012 season?

Unread postby DiamondEdge » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:34 pm

I had a good year :D
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