WI Minimum Antler Restriction Petition on Change.org

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Re: WI Minimum Antler Restriction Petition on Change.org

Unread postby dan » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:40 am

B Hunter wrote:
dan wrote:The much, much bigger problem is the doe slaughter. A lot of guys don't even realize whats really going on. For instance, I think I saw a couple posts saying "one buck rule" regardless of weapon... That and an antler point restriction would do nothing if they continue with the doe slaughter, and here is why: During Wisconsin's December "holiday hunt" 11% of the "does" shot are shed bucks, and almost 1/2 are button bucks. about 1/2 the deer killed are actually bucks... And... I got those figures from a Wisconsin WDNR Biologist.

A P R's might be nice at some point, but the overall bad management needs to be addressed 1st.


Dan,

What do you personally think the DNR’s motive is behind all these doe hunts? Ignorance/general bad management or do they have a specific goal they want to attain?

Old school numbers management rather than whats good for hunters and deer. They want a very low deer per square mile ratio, and dont look at things like age diversity and hunter numbers...


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Re: WI Minimum Antler Restriction Petition on Change.org

Unread postby greenhorndave » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:09 pm

dan wrote:
B Hunter wrote:
dan wrote:The much, much bigger problem is the doe slaughter. A lot of guys don't even realize whats really going on. For instance, I think I saw a couple posts saying "one buck rule" regardless of weapon... That and an antler point restriction would do nothing if they continue with the doe slaughter, and here is why: During Wisconsin's December "holiday hunt" 11% of the "does" shot are shed bucks, and almost 1/2 are button bucks. about 1/2 the deer killed are actually bucks... And... I got those figures from a Wisconsin WDNR Biologist.

A P R's might be nice at some point, but the overall bad management needs to be addressed 1st.


Dan,

What do you personally think the DNR’s motive is behind all these doe hunts? Ignorance/general bad management or do they have a specific goal they want to attain?

Old school numbers management rather than whats good for hunters and deer. They want a very low deer per square mile ratio, and dont look at things like age diversity and hunter numbers...


In other words, lazy data analytics.

(Sorry if I offended any DNR types)
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Re: WI Minimum Antler Restriction Petition on Change.org

Unread postby ghoasthunter » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:55 pm

dan wrote:Every place I have seen an antler restriction in use the hunting over all got better, and safer when people needed to know what they are shooting at.... Our management needs to address the low population and the un-needed doe seasons more than an antler restriction though.

i totally agree with you when my state increased the doe harvests our quality of hunting went way down every doe that is shot is 3 less deer the following year. does increase the population faster than any other thing. its a rule of numbers if the population is higher there will be more mature bucks. another thing ive seen since my state is low on does is the big mature does know how too survive when pressure and mother nature take place. the big old does lead the young doe fawns and button bucks too safty from hunters and weather. without them the young deer become dependent on bait and peoples landscaping too survive. the young bucks learn where too go and hide and survive. higher doe numbers make breeding seasons go longer and also input on keeping bucks holding there antlers longer. sure young fawns can survive without mom threw the winter but they will be a better healthier animal in the spring with alpha does leading the way when living gets tough. not too mention if that doe shows young button bucks the right food in the winter they will start antler growth faster and probably end up with a small basket rack or 3 points there first year anyway.
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Re: WI Minimum Antler Restriction Petition on Change.org

Unread postby dan » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:03 pm

ghoasthunter wrote:
dan wrote:Every place I have seen an antler restriction in use the hunting over all got better, and safer when people needed to know what they are shooting at.... Our management needs to address the low population and the un-needed doe seasons more than an antler restriction though.

i totally agree with you when my state increased the doe harvests our quality of hunting went way down every doe that is shot is 3 less deer the following year. does increase the population faster than any other thing. its a rule of numbers if the population is higher there will be more mature bucks. another thing ive seen since my state is low on does is the big mature does know how too survive when pressure and mother nature take place. the big old does lead the young doe fawns and button bucks too safty from hunters and weather. without them the young deer become dependent on bait and peoples landscaping too survive. the young bucks learn where too go and hide and survive. higher doe numbers make breeding seasons go longer and also input on keeping bucks holding there antlers longer. sure young fawns can survive without mom threw the winter but they will be a better healthier animal in the spring with alpha does leading the way when living gets tough. not too mention if that doe shows young button bucks the right food in the winter they will start antler growth faster and probably end up with a small basket rack or 3 points there first year anyway.

When I was a kid you had to apply as a group to get a doe tag and I think you had to have like 8 people in your group. Most hunters refused to shoot does. Gun license got you a buck tag. Bow license got you a choice. And still it took many, many, years to get the population up. Now they hand more doe tags out than buck tags.
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Re: WI Minimum Antler Restriction Petition on Change.org

Unread postby ghoasthunter » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:10 pm

stash59 wrote:APR's are stupid everyone. Number of points has """""nothing"""" to do with age. Someone mentioned that their state restricts, limits, what age class of bucks can be harvested by, the spread/beam lengths. This makes much more sense!!! I've seen 1.5YO's with 8+ points plenty of times. In some areas they were 30-45% of the total number of 1.5YO bucks killed/available to kill. Using the correct dimensions for spread/beam length will permit a higher percentage of bucks to be protected until they are 3.5YO. Which increases the odds that a buck will make it to 4.5+ dramatically.

Using points to restrict buck kills will actually make the gene pool for larger antlered bucks go downhill. All of the 1.5YO bucks with better genes are fair game and will get killed off. Yet a 5.5+YO 6 point would be illegal til the day he dies!!! So spread/beam lengths would make the herd healthier, because often the bucks with the best genes for larger antlers. Also have the better genes for larger bodies, etc.

Deciding whether a buck is legal is easier to determine with spread/beam lengths than counting points too. APR's are just plain a bad idea!!!!!!!!!

hear you go this type of 1.5 year old deer in my area carries the genetics too make this mature bucks rack characteristics if there were antler point restrictions this the gene will be targeted buy all hunters not every buck has the genetics too make a giant. why make the odds of this deer less likely too be passed on id rather someone shoot there spike or fork horn and be done. antler point restrictions will remove a lot of the genetics that every hunter dreams about.Image
Last edited by ghoasthunter on Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WI Minimum Antler Restriction Petition on Change.org

Unread postby ghoasthunter » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:20 pm

dan wrote:
ghoasthunter wrote:
dan wrote:Every place I have seen an antler restriction in use the hunting over all got better, and safer when people needed to know what they are shooting at.... Our management needs to address the low population and the un-needed doe seasons more than an antler restriction though.

i totally agree with you when my state increased the doe harvests our quality of hunting went way down every doe that is shot is 3 less deer the following year. does increase the population faster than any other thing. its a rule of numbers if the population is higher there will be more mature bucks. another thing ive seen since my state is low on does is the big mature does know how too survive when pressure and mother nature take place. the big old does lead the young doe fawns and button bucks too safty from hunters and weather. without them the young deer become dependent on bait and peoples landscaping too survive. the young bucks learn where too go and hide and survive. higher doe numbers make breeding seasons go longer and also input on keeping bucks holding there antlers longer. sure young fawns can survive without mom threw the winter but they will be a better healthier animal in the spring with alpha does leading the way when living gets tough. not too mention if that doe shows young button bucks the right food in the winter they will start antler growth faster and probably end up with a small basket rack or 3 points there first year anyway.

When I was a kid you had to apply as a group to get a doe tag and I think you had to have like 8 people in your group. Most hunters refused to shoot does. Gun license got you a buck tag. Bow license got you a choice. And still it took many, many, years to get the population up. Now they hand more doe tags out than buck tags.

tv is part too blame i dont know where everybody got the idea that shooting does is management. what works on huge private farms for management does not work on public grounds. another thing is how is killing all the deer on large tracts of public land help control deer numbers near roadways and high population areas. i really doubt the deer in the burbs will say hay there are no deer on the state forest lets move there now lol there needs too be separate management rules for public areas that dont effect humans day too day lives.
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Re: WI Minimum Antler Restriction Petition on Change.org

Unread postby ghoasthunter » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:42 pm

i say as hunters that care we all take our time and try too encourage all hunters too protect our precious resources. we have the control over our harvest not the state we live in. i know my areas are hurting on deer numbers so i make it a point too spread my harvests if i take a deer in one area i do so when i feel im not impacting the herd i take my meat deer in areas near roads where they are less likely too survive due too cars or shoot them where i feel im seeing healthy numbers. i try and micro manage my public spots as best i can. i talk too other hunters in the areas i hunt and tell them what i do. you be surprised how many hunters will agree with you and want too do the same. hunters uniting together will hold all the power over any bad management done buy any state.
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Re: WI Minimum Antler Restriction Petition on Change.org

Unread postby adudeuknow » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:58 pm

Antler restrictions have worked wonders in PA. I can understand people that don't like it but rarely do they look at the whole picture.
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Re: WI Minimum Antler Restriction Petition on Change.org

Unread postby Bowhunting Brian » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:11 am

adudeuknow wrote:Antler restrictions have worked wonders in PA. I can understand people that don't like it but rarely do they look at the whole picture.


Every state is different. Here in WI I don't think we need it. We have a lot of counties that produce monsters every year. It's only certain areas that are bad and I'd bet it's because too many hunters felt the need to fill all of their tags every year just because they could, not because they needed to. I wish public land would be managed differently than private.
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Re: WI Minimum Antler Restriction Petition on Change.org

Unread postby dan » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:16 am

Bowhunting Brian wrote:
adudeuknow wrote:Antler restrictions have worked wonders in PA. I can understand people that don't like it but rarely do they look at the whole picture.


Every state is different. Here in WI I don't think we need it. We have a lot of counties that produce monsters every year. It's only certain areas that are bad and I'd bet it's because too many hunters felt the need to fill all of their tags every year just because they could, not because they needed to. I wish public land would be managed differently than private.

That last sentence is really the key...
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Re: WI Minimum Antler Restriction Petition on Change.org

Unread postby cspot » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:01 pm

dan wrote:
Bowhunting Brian wrote:
adudeuknow wrote:Antler restrictions have worked wonders in PA. I can understand people that don't like it but rarely do they look at the whole picture.


Every state is different. Here in WI I don't think we need it. We have a lot of counties that produce monsters every year. It's only certain areas that are bad and I'd bet it's because too many hunters felt the need to fill all of their tags every year just because they could, not because they needed to. I wish public land would be managed differently than private.

That last sentence is really the key...


One thing that Ohio did this year with public land is limit it to 1 doe per person on public land. In addition after the regular gun season it is buck only on public land. We will see how the results will be in a couple of years, but it is nice to see a state try and manage public different than private.
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Re: WI Minimum Antler Restriction Petition on Change.org

Unread postby adudeuknow » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:27 pm

I live in what many consider the big buck mecca of PA and that is probably a true statement as I typically encounter 5 to 10 bucks a year through scouting and hunting that are 150inch class or bigger.

While I feel blessed to live in this area and know for a fact antler restrictions have worked wonderfully here, I too still wish there was more ways of killing does. I see 15 doe for every buck I see and I see a lot of bucks.

They issue so many doe tags for this area but the problem is access. Many of these areas are ripe with multimillion dollar housing plans and industrial parks. Most people that put in the work to gain access and hunt these areas aren't doing so to fill doe tags. They are targeting giant bucks.

I write all of that just to convey as others here have that situations differ from county to county but management from a state level is put in motion to address the entire state rather than individual areas.

Not sure if it's simply not possible to individualize regulations or just too difficult. I would imagine there are plenty of things in every state that see little benefit from statewide regulations rather than regulations with a more specific area of focus.
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Re: WI Minimum Antler Restriction Petition on Change.org

Unread postby Josh_S » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:40 pm

It has worked well in PA. Guys who sit on the same stump every year and never kill anything complain about it, but the quality of bucks here has improved immensely since implementation of antler restrictions.
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Re: WI Minimum Antler Restriction Petition on Change.org

Unread postby dan » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:36 am

adudeuknow wrote:I live in what many consider the big buck mecca of PA and that is probably a true statement as I typically encounter 5 to 10 bucks a year through scouting and hunting that are 150inch class or bigger.

While I feel blessed to live in this area and know for a fact antler restrictions have worked wonderfully here, I too still wish there was more ways of killing does. I see 15 doe for every buck I see and I see a lot of bucks.

They issue so many doe tags for this area but the problem is access. Many of these areas are ripe with multimillion dollar housing plans and industrial parks. Most people that put in the work to gain access and hunt these areas aren't doing so to fill doe tags. They are targeting giant bucks.

I write all of that just to convey as others here have that situations differ from county to county but management from a state level is put in motion to address the entire state rather than individual areas.

Not sure if it's simply not possible to individualize regulations or just too difficult. I would imagine there are plenty of things in every state that see little benefit from statewide regulations rather than regulations with a more specific area of focus.

Carful what you wish for... Lots of does means lots of bucks... I hunted a few times on Andraes Illinois lease and it was amazing to see 100 deer in one sit... DNR agencies and collage brainwashed biologists will tell you how that is so bad for the health and buck growth will be severely stunted, but fact of the matter was that many of the states largest bucks came off that property, and the properties surrounding it. Was it over populated? Yes. But very few places have "too many" deer if you ask me... We used to have a great population by my house on public and private. You could see several dozen P/Y and a few B/C bucks in just a couple hours of shining the public, and the hunting was fantastic. But that all changed when the population was lowered. Now its a very hard hunt on the public, for anything.
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Re: WI Minimum Antler Restriction Petition on Change.org

Unread postby Dewey » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:55 am

dan wrote:
adudeuknow wrote:I live in what many consider the big buck mecca of PA and that is probably a true statement as I typically encounter 5 to 10 bucks a year through scouting and hunting that are 150inch class or bigger.

While I feel blessed to live in this area and know for a fact antler restrictions have worked wonderfully here, I too still wish there was more ways of killing does. I see 15 doe for every buck I see and I see a lot of bucks.

They issue so many doe tags for this area but the problem is access. Many of these areas are ripe with multimillion dollar housing plans and industrial parks. Most people that put in the work to gain access and hunt these areas aren't doing so to fill doe tags. They are targeting giant bucks.

I write all of that just to convey as others here have that situations differ from county to county but management from a state level is put in motion to address the entire state rather than individual areas.

Not sure if it's simply not possible to individualize regulations or just too difficult. I would imagine there are plenty of things in every state that see little benefit from statewide regulations rather than regulations with a more specific area of focus.

Carful what you wish for... Lots of does means lots of bucks... I hunted a few times on Andraes Illinois lease and it was amazing to see 100 deer in one sit... DNR agencies and collage brainwashed biologists will tell you how that is so bad for the health and buck growth will be severely stunted, but fact of the matter was that many of the states largest bucks came off that property, and the properties surrounding it. Was it over populated? Yes. But very few places have "too many" deer if you ask me... We used to have a great population by my house on public and private. You could see several dozen P/Y and a few B/C bucks in just a couple hours of shining the public, and the hunting was fantastic. But that all changed when the population was lowered. Now its a very hard hunt on the public, for anything.

Boy does that sound familiar. I think back to the late 80's thru the 90's and amazed the number of quality bucks that were around. It's mind boggling when I think back to those times. This all ended after 2001 when the CWD scare started and the DNR started the antlerless slaughter. Killing off all the does and nub bucks has just completely destroyed the numbers of quality bucks. Kill off your buck producers and the numbers drop drastically. Simple math. Awhile back it was a struggle to even see a doe but that seems to be getting a little bit better since tags have been restricted but it was 10 years too late IMO. Every year it seems to be more and more of a struggle to get on quality bucks. I would love to see some type of antler restrictions. I think the timing is perfect for that right now. I think it's our best chance at recovering from the low buck numbers in many areas.


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