Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

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Re: Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Unread postby dan » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:19 am

tim wrote:Good stuff here. I notice your kills come in the evening mostly. I’m the opposite mine are All morning to late morning I believe until this year. I just killed my first mature buck on oct 14 at 350 in the afternoon. I just always get them in the morning and I don’t hunt less in the evening. I’m wondering how many of those evening kills are early season kills because you are mostly hunting evenings as opposed to later in the season when morning hunting heats up and you are already tagged out?

Mornings are great times to hunt during rut phases which is when most people hunt... You are right noticing that my percentage of kills in Nov. is only 3... And one of those is the morning kill. Part of it may be because of my job I simply hunt more evenings during rut. Andrae is more of a rut hunter, and he kills the majority of his biggest bucks at bedding areas in rut in the morning. At least from what I can remember from hunting with him.


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Re: Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Unread postby cspot » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:01 pm

dan wrote:
Mossyhorns wrote:
dan wrote:
Mossyhorns wrote:
dan wrote:
Missionshooter wrote:Dan,

Great post!!

I noticed none were shot late season. What are your thoughts on why that is.

This is so counter thinking to how most people hunt. Most guys take off 2 weeks in November thinking they'll kill their mature buck cruising for does or coming to his calling looking for a fight. I hear guys rattling on public every year. I see their scent wicks while out scouting. I had a 3 yr old buck bed 60 yards from my tree at 715am on November 7th this year and thought, "why the he'll is he bedded this early during the rut?!?! He should be chasing does or cruising till at least 9am... It's Nov 7th!!!!"

Do you recommend that us novices start looking for scrapes like you describe where staging areas meet? (Obviously they won't always be there) Within 100 yards from bedding?

I have called in a lot of nice bucks, mostly when I see them and they are not coming to me. But, one buck that comes to mind a couple years ago was a mature buck that was casually walking up wind of me, and obviously not coming to me. It was a 1st time sit... I grunted to him then looked down to turn the camera on, when I looked back up I could not see him. I waited 5 minutes and new he had to still be right there I would of surly seen him leave so I grunted one more time and he jumped up from the grass and bolted out of there... Same call I had tricked dozens of 2 or 3 year olds with... Those bed scrapes are not real easy to find, but when you do find one, there golden.


What do you mean by bed scrapes?

If you search, I know there are some posts on that topic... But what it is, is a scrape where the staging area over laps with a staging area of another bedding area. Bucks don't do anything "randomly" there is a reason for things lake scrapes and such. Scrapes usually mark something. In this case its put where two rival bucks meet. Its usually within 100 yards of each bedding area. And the scrape is used when ever bucks are actively using the beds. I shot one of my vary biggest bucks on such a scrape opening weekend in early September when most think scrapes are not out yet.

So basically you could maybe have one buck bedding on say a 80 acre parcel, it could ridges, swamps, whatever and then at the same time you could have another totally different buck covering another adjacent 80 acre parcel but at the same time both may get real close to each other on the edge of where there bedroom is because both are covering different sets of ground but the fringes of those grounds still get real close and they could be marking on the same set of sign.... or am I totally out of the park

Your "kinda" right... Usually this occurs when the bucks are bedding very close to each other. Like within 200 yards.



I have had a couple of spots that have had scrapes that I always called a community scrape. Not sure if that is the correct term, but I always called them that because most every deer (doe, small buck, big buck) that came thru there would check it even well out of season. May not work/check the ground, but the deer would at least check out the overhanging branches. These were close to bedding. Same thing or do you think something different going on there?
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Re: Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Unread postby dan » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:19 pm

cspot wrote:
dan wrote:
Mossyhorns wrote:
dan wrote:
Mossyhorns wrote:
dan wrote:
Missionshooter wrote:Dan,

Great post!!

I noticed none were shot late season. What are your thoughts on why that is.

This is so counter thinking to how most people hunt. Most guys take off 2 weeks in November thinking they'll kill their mature buck cruising for does or coming to his calling looking for a fight. I hear guys rattling on public every year. I see their scent wicks while out scouting. I had a 3 yr old buck bed 60 yards from my tree at 715am on November 7th this year and thought, "why the he'll is he bedded this early during the rut?!?! He should be chasing does or cruising till at least 9am... It's Nov 7th!!!!"

Do you recommend that us novices start looking for scrapes like you describe where staging areas meet? (Obviously they won't always be there) Within 100 yards from bedding?

I have called in a lot of nice bucks, mostly when I see them and they are not coming to me. But, one buck that comes to mind a couple years ago was a mature buck that was casually walking up wind of me, and obviously not coming to me. It was a 1st time sit... I grunted to him then looked down to turn the camera on, when I looked back up I could not see him. I waited 5 minutes and new he had to still be right there I would of surly seen him leave so I grunted one more time and he jumped up from the grass and bolted out of there... Same call I had tricked dozens of 2 or 3 year olds with... Those bed scrapes are not real easy to find, but when you do find one, there golden.


What do you mean by bed scrapes?

If you search, I know there are some posts on that topic... But what it is, is a scrape where the staging area over laps with a staging area of another bedding area. Bucks don't do anything "randomly" there is a reason for things lake scrapes and such. Scrapes usually mark something. In this case its put where two rival bucks meet. Its usually within 100 yards of each bedding area. And the scrape is used when ever bucks are actively using the beds. I shot one of my vary biggest bucks on such a scrape opening weekend in early September when most think scrapes are not out yet.

So basically you could maybe have one buck bedding on say a 80 acre parcel, it could ridges, swamps, whatever and then at the same time you could have another totally different buck covering another adjacent 80 acre parcel but at the same time both may get real close to each other on the edge of where there bedroom is because both are covering different sets of ground but the fringes of those grounds still get real close and they could be marking on the same set of sign.... or am I totally out of the park

Your "kinda" right... Usually this occurs when the bucks are bedding very close to each other. Like within 200 yards.



I have had a couple of spots that have had scrapes that I always called a community scrape. Not sure if that is the correct term, but I always called them that because most every deer (doe, small buck, big buck) that came thru there would check it even well out of season. May not work/check the ground, but the deer would at least check out the overhanging branches. These were close to bedding. Same thing or do you think something different going on there?

Could be, hard to tell from here.
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Re: Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Unread postby mheichelbech » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:46 pm

dan wrote:Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Lets take a closer look at my top 10 bow killed bucks (I did not include gun kills) and see what factors that lead up to the kill were consistent to what percent. What is interesting about these stats is the mature buck stats vary greatly from the stats of the "nice" middle age bucks I have taken (mature bucks used in this study are believed to be 4 years old or more) . This to me really shows the need to "hunt for mature bucks" in order to kill mature bucks consistently. Its like mature bucks are a whole different animal. Hunting for deer and expecting to kill a mature buck is like hunting rabbits hoping for pheasants.

Killed within 300 yards of bedding area - 10 (100%)

Killed within 100 yards of bedding area - 8 (80%)

Killed at a scrape where the intersection of two staging areas met - 4 (40%)

1st time ever sit - 4 (40%)

1st time that year (includes 1st ever sits) - 6 (60%)

2nd or 3rd sit - 2 (20%)

Shot in Sept, - 3 (30%)

Shot in Oct - 4 (40%)

Shot in Nov - 3 (30%)

Shot in the eve. - 9 (90%)

Shot in morning - 1 (10%)

calls used- 0

Scents used- 0

Was hunting the buck I shot - 8 (80%)

Hunted buck for 2 or more seasons - 3 (30%)

Within 200 yards of the road - 2 (20%)

Killed at a crop field or food plot - 0

I was a little surprised at the results of this too. It took me looking at each of the bucks and remembering where and how it was killed and writing down the answers... The reason I post this is for you to compare how these bucks got killed, and think about your approach, and to consider if your putting yourself in position for for nice bucks, or the giants...

I think at age 4 bucks really start to get smart. Especially on pressured properties. They learn to move short distances in safe areas in daylight, they learn where all the hunting spots are on the property, and how to avoid them. They pick bedding spots that watch you access or smell your approach. You either have to get real lucky, or make smart, well thought, precision moves.

When I look at the other deer I have shot below my top 10 (2 & 3 year olds mostly) You start to see the funnel stands pay off more that are hunted over and over, you see a lot more random kills of deer that just wandered past, you see deer shot over food, and you see a lot more rut kills.

Just like the bucks jump up in intelligence at a certain point, hunters can either get to the point of shooting "nice" 110 to 130 inch bucks every year and never excel, or they can start hunting a new and smarter animal and raise the bar. Now, don't take me wrong, there is nothing wrong with shooting 110 to 130 inch bucks, but if you want to occasionally take the occasional giant, you might want to hunt for giants.
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Re: Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Unread postby Dpierce72 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:41 pm

Were there 10 different bedding areas? Or some of the bucks killed from the same bedding area?
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Re: Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Unread postby dan » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:01 am

Dpierce72 wrote:Were there 10 different bedding areas? Or some of the bucks killed from the same bedding area?

Of my top 10 none were from the same bedding area. But when you go down a notch to the nice middle age bucks below my top 10 that changes dramatically and a lot of my nice bucks came from the same bedding areas. What's interesting is that often the 1st hunt in a spot generated a mature buck but after that buck the spot produces 2 or 3 year olds annually if only hunted once or twice a year. Kind of showing us that we need to hunt mature bucks differently
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Re: Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Unread postby dan » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:07 am

mheichelbech wrote:
dan wrote:Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Lets take a closer look at my top 10 bow killed bucks (I did not include gun kills) and see what factors that lead up to the kill were consistent to what percent. What is interesting about these stats is the mature buck stats vary greatly from the stats of the "nice" middle age bucks I have taken (mature bucks used in this study are believed to be 4 years old or more) . This to me really shows the need to "hunt for mature bucks" in order to kill mature bucks consistently. Its like mature bucks are a whole different animal. Hunting for deer and expecting to kill a mature buck is like hunting rabbits hoping for pheasants.

Killed within 300 yards of bedding area - 10 (100%)

Killed within 100 yards of bedding area - 8 (80%)

Killed at a scrape where the intersection of two staging areas met - 4 (40%)

1st time ever sit - 4 (40%)

1st time that year (includes 1st ever sits) - 6 (60%)

2nd or 3rd sit - 2 (20%)

Shot in Sept, - 3 (30%)

Shot in Oct - 4 (40%)

Shot in Nov - 3 (30%)

Shot in the eve. - 9 (90%)

Shot in morning - 1 (10%)

calls used- 0

Scents used- 0

Was hunting the buck I shot - 8 (80%)

Hunted buck for 2 or more seasons - 3 (30%)

Within 200 yards of the road - 2 (20%)

Killed at a crop field or food plot - 0

I was a little surprised at the results of this too. It took me looking at each of the bucks and remembering where and how it was killed and writing down the answers... The reason I post this is for you to compare how these bucks got killed, and think about your approach, and to consider if your putting yourself in position for for nice bucks, or the giants...

I think at age 4 bucks really start to get smart. Especially on pressured properties. They learn to move short distances in safe areas in daylight, they learn where all the hunting spots are on the property, and how to avoid them. They pick bedding spots that watch you access or smell your approach. You either have to get real lucky, or make smart, well thought, precision moves.

When I look at the other deer I have shot below my top 10 (2 & 3 year olds mostly) You start to see the funnel stands pay off more that are hunted over and over, you see a lot more random kills of deer that just wandered past, you see deer shot over food, and you see a lot more rut kills.

Just like the bucks jump up in intelligence at a certain point, hunters can either get to the point of shooting "nice" 110 to 130 inch bucks every year and never excel, or they can start hunting a new and smarter animal and raise the bar. Now, don't take me wrong, there is nothing wrong with shooting 110 to 130 inch bucks, but if you want to occasionally take the occasional giant, you might want to hunt for giants.

Every buck was different and had different challenges. Some like the obsession buck had a lot of observation hunts due to living in an open area that was difficult to get close to. Some I rely more on sign. But most of the bigger ones were hunted for a long period of time. Anywhere from 10 hunts to a couple years. Often its monitoring and waiting for the buck to reveal an opportunity, or studying maps and sign and searching for that vulnerable point in his routine
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Re: Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Unread postby Dpierce72 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:09 am

dan wrote:
Dpierce72 wrote:Were there 10 different bedding areas? Or some of the bucks killed from the same bedding area?

Of my top 10 none were from the same bedding area. But when you go down a notch to the nice middle age bucks below my top 10 that changes dramatically and a lot of my nice bucks came from the same bedding areas. What's interesting is that often the 1st hunt in a spot generated a mature buck but after that buck the spot produces 2 or 3 year olds annually if only hunted once or twice a year. Kind of showing us that we need to hunt mature bucks differently


Awesome! I knew I had heard you mention multiple bucks from the same beds, so thought I'd clarify if any of these were among those. VERY eye-opening stats...
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Re: Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Unread postby dan » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:15 am

Dpierce72 wrote:
dan wrote:
Dpierce72 wrote:Were there 10 different bedding areas? Or some of the bucks killed from the same bedding area?

Of my top 10 none were from the same bedding area. But when you go down a notch to the nice middle age bucks below my top 10 that changes dramatically and a lot of my nice bucks came from the same bedding areas. What's interesting is that often the 1st hunt in a spot generated a mature buck but after that buck the spot produces 2 or 3 year olds annually if only hunted once or twice a year. Kind of showing us that we need to hunt mature bucks differently


Awesome! I knew I had heard you mention multiple bucks from the same beds, so thought I'd clarify if any of these were among those. VERY eye-opening stats...

If I ever have the time I would like to break down those stats based on age class that would be real eye opening as to the difference in age class. It seems to me most people are hunting 2 year olds expecting mature bucks. Different tactics are needed to step up to the next age class. But a lot of guys get stuck in the 2 to 3 year old tactics.
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Re: Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Unread postby cspot » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:59 am

Maybe I missed this but I will ask.

Out of the 10 bucks, was there any that you had never laid eyes on before or seen in trail cam pics?
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Re: Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Unread postby dan » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:09 pm

cspot wrote:Maybe I missed this but I will ask.

Out of the 10 bucks, was there any that you had never laid eyes on before or seen in trail cam pics?

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Re: Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Unread postby mheichelbech » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:34 pm

One thing I wonder is what gave you confidence, other than past experience, that you were in the game and on the right track for these bucks? Although I’ve killed a few good ones, I still have trouble even seeing a shooter much less being able to pattern one!

I think every one I’ve killed were first time sits, 2 being at draw in properties, 3 during the rut and 3 where I had actually found sign and sat where I thought they’d come through (2 of these based on “Beast” strategy. So, basically over the course of 15 years of hunting, I’ve only killed 3 bucks that I knew about and intended to hunt. So on average I guess I’ve killed a mature buck about every 2 years however it has been more of like 2-4 in a row and then a drought.
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Re: Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Unread postby dan » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:50 pm

mheichelbech wrote:One thing I wonder is what gave you confidence, other than past experience, that you were in the game and on the right track for these bucks? Although I’ve killed a few good ones, I still have trouble even seeing a shooter much less being able to pattern one!

I think every one I’ve killed were first time sits, 2 being at draw in properties, 3 during the rut and 3 where I had actually found sign and sat where I thought they’d come through (2 of these based on “Beast” strategy. So, basically over the course of 15 years of hunting, I’ve only killed 3 bucks that I knew about and intended to hunt. So on average I guess I’ve killed a mature buck about every 2 years however it has been more of like 2-4 in a row and then a drought.

Confidence is a state of mind. Its hard to say why. A lot of it has to to with scouting, and reading the sign, and being pretty sure your on the right track. When I look at an area and I know the buck is within a certain area, its pretty reassuring to think I can just hop around and hunt this area down and I should get my crack. Once you cross off all the places no legit mature buck would go, the area you have left is pretty small and easy to work with. The more you learn about the buck and the woods he lives in, the more your confidence should go up. When you look at all the best hunters on this site, look at there posts, they really talk the same tactics as the rest of us with minor differences, the only real big difference is the state of mind. The belief you could stick them anywhere and they would get it done. Without that, you go into an area expecting to fail, and you do just as you expect.
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Re: Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Unread postby dan » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:45 pm

Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Lets take a closer look at my top 10 bow killed bucks (I did not include gun kills) and see what factors that lead up to the kill were consistent to what percent. What is interesting about these stats is the mature buck stats vary greatly from the stats of the "nice" middle age bucks I have taken (mature bucks used in this study are believed to be 4 years old or more) . This to me really shows the need to "hunt for mature bucks" in order to kill mature bucks consistently. Its like mature bucks are a whole different animal. Hunting for deer and expecting to kill a mature buck is like hunting rabbits hoping for pheasants.

Killed within 300 yards of bedding area - 10 (100%)

Killed within 100 yards of bedding area - 8 (80%)

Killed at a scrape where the intersection of two staging areas met - 4 (40%)

1st time ever sit - 4 (40%)

1st time that year (includes 1st ever sits) - 6 (60%)

2nd or 3rd sit - 2 (20%)

Shot in Sept, - 3 (30%)

Shot in Oct - 4 (40%)

Shot in Nov - 3 (30%)

Shot in the eve. - 9 (90%)

Shot in morning - 1 (10%)

calls used- 0

Scents used- 0

Was hunting the buck I shot - 8 (80%)

Hunted buck for 2 or more seasons - 3 (30%)

Within 200 yards of the road - 2 (20%)

Killed at a crop field or food plot - 0

I was a little surprised at the results of this too. It took me looking at each of the bucks and remembering where and how it was killed and writing down the answers... The reason I post this is for you to compare how these bucks got killed, and think about your approach, and to consider if your putting yourself in position for for nice bucks, or the giants...

I think at age 4 bucks really start to get smart. Especially on pressured properties. They learn to move short distances in safe areas in daylight, they learn where all the hunting spots are on the property, and how to avoid them. They pick bedding spots that watch you access or smell your approach. You either have to get real lucky, or make smart, well thought, precision moves.

When I look at the other deer I have shot below my top 10 (2 & 3 year olds mostly) You start to see the funnel stands pay off more that are hunted over and over, you see a lot more random kills of deer that just wandered past, you see deer shot over food, and you see a lot more rut kills.

Just like the bucks jump up in intelligence at a certain point, hunters can either get to the point of shooting "nice" 110 to 130 inch bucks every year and never excel, or they can start hunting a new and smarter animal and raise the bar. Now, don't take me wrong, there is nothing wrong with shooting 110 to 130 inch bucks, but if you want to occasionally take the occasional giant, you might want to hunt for giants.
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Re: Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Unread postby mheichelbech » Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:40 pm

dan wrote:Hunting rabbits, hoping for pheasants...

Lets take a closer look at my top 10 bow killed bucks (I did not include gun kills) and see what factors that lead up to the kill were consistent to what percent. What is interesting about these stats is the mature buck stats vary greatly from the stats of the "nice" middle age bucks I have taken (mature bucks used in this study are believed to be 4 years old or more) . This to me really shows the need to "hunt for mature bucks" in order to kill mature bucks consistently. Its like mature bucks are a whole different animal. Hunting for deer and expecting to kill a mature buck is like hunting rabbits hoping for pheasants.

Killed within 300 yards of bedding area - 10 (100%)

Killed within 100 yards of bedding area - 8 (80%)

Killed at a scrape where the intersection of two staging areas met - 4 (40%)

1st time ever sit - 4 (40%)

1st time that year (includes 1st ever sits) - 6 (60%)

2nd or 3rd sit - 2 (20%)

Shot in Sept, - 3 (30%)

Shot in Oct - 4 (40%)

Shot in Nov - 3 (30%)

Shot in the eve. - 9 (90%)

Shot in morning - 1 (10%)

calls used- 0

Scents used- 0

Was hunting the buck I shot - 8 (80%)

Hunted buck for 2 or more seasons - 3 (30%)

Within 200 yards of the road - 2 (20%)

Killed at a crop field or food plot - 0

I was a little surprised at the results of this too. It took me looking at each of the bucks and remembering where and how it was killed and writing down the answers... The reason I post this is for you to compare how these bucks got killed, and think about your approach, and to consider if your putting yourself in position for for nice bucks, or the giants...

I think at age 4 bucks really start to get smart. Especially on pressured properties. They learn to move short distances in safe areas in daylight, they learn where all the hunting spots are on the property, and how to avoid them. They pick bedding spots that watch you access or smell your approach. You either have to get real lucky, or make smart, well thought, precision moves.

When I look at the other deer I have shot below my top 10 (2 & 3 year olds mostly) You start to see the funnel stands pay off more that are hunted over and over, you see a lot more random kills of deer that just wandered past, you see deer shot over food, and you see a lot more rut kills.

Just like the bucks jump up in intelligence at a certain point, hunters can either get to the point of shooting "nice" 110 to 130 inch bucks every year and never excel, or they can start hunting a new and smarter animal and raise the bar. Now, don't take me wrong, there is nothing wrong with shooting 110 to 130 inch bucks, but if you want to occasionally take the occasional giant, you might want to hunt for giants.

Other than observing from a distance, how are you avoiding detection while still monitoring a buck’s movements and making sure he is the area?
"One of the chief attractions of the life of the wilderness is its rugged and stalwart democracy; there every man stands for what he actually is and can show himself to be." — Theodore Roosevelt, 1893


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