post rut doe a no go, an I looking at this wrong?

[Dewey]

Am I the only one who's head hurts from all of this!!!!!!!

Me too

Too really blow your mind.....what if the doe was carrying triplets? It's rare but I have seen it a number of times even far north after very mild winters. In this case you would be killing four deer with one shot. Doesn't matter when you kill does pre-rut or post-rut the end result is much less deer on the landscape in the future. Northern WI is prime example of what over harvest of does does to the herd. Sure predators take some but hunters along with the DNR giving out unlimited tags in the late 1990's-2005 did a great majority of the damage which has never recovered.

[Stanley]

Lot of confusion, on all our experiences, determining how things appear to us. Reasoning, that involves the formation of conclusions, from incomplete evidence is not what determines the eventual outcome. Just because we think something could happen, surely doesn't mean it will happen. The only thing I know for sure, is; I don't know anything for sure. News flash, I'm not alone, just more willing to admit it than some.

[magicman54494]

what if the sub par antlered buck that you culled just happened to have the genetics to survive CWD or some other disease?
I'll let God play God and I'll just shoot a deer if I want to. My head hurts as well after reading this.

[wolverinebuckman]

what if the sub par antlered buck that you culled just happened to have the genetics to survive CWD or some other disease?

It's kind of like my young black lab we rescued. He is a magnificent representation of what a lab should be physically. Strong, sleek, athletic... he's also got the mental capacity of most jocks. (Remember those guys in high school that could cream the opposing teams qb nearly every play...physically unstoppable. And then after the game they would do stuff like head but lockers?) I'm getting him clipped so he doesn't spread any of his dim wit genes, at the cost of physically superior puppies.

The "sub par" buck lacked the genetic common sense to not get shot mid morning in the middle of October. Perhaps one of his disease resilient brethren will have both genes.

[wolverinebuckman]

[wolverinebuckman]

[Wannabelikedan]

So no one participating in this thread is a deer biologist I take....... You ask for opinions if you’re looking at this situation “wrong”......almost all responses have weighed on the side of “wrong” yet you’re trying to convince everyone you’re not. Do us a favor and go listen to The Deer University podcasts. Those guys have more deer biology knowledge than anyone here I can almost guarantee. Almost worried their insight on the matter won’t be enough to satisfy you

[Swampbuck]

So no one participating in this thread is a deer biologist I take....... You ask for opinions if you’re looking at this situation “wrong”......almost all responses have weighed on the side of “wrong” yet you’re trying to convince everyone you’re not. Do us a favor and go listen to The Deer University podcasts. Those guys have more deer biology knowledge than anyone here I can almost guarantee. Almost worried their insight on the matter won’t be enough to satisfy you

Agreed, the horse has officially been kicked in the teeth, beaten to death and is beginning to rot. May he now lay in rest

[Stanley]

So no one participating in this thread is a deer biologist I take....... You ask for opinions if you’re looking at this situation “wrong”......almost all responses have weighed on the side of “wrong” yet you’re trying to convince everyone you’re not. Do us a favor and go listen to The Deer University podcasts. Those guys have more deer biology knowledge than anyone here I can almost guarantee. Almost worried their insight on the matter won’t be enough to satisfy you

There are no right or wrong answers when it comes down to hypothetical situations. I sure wouldn't hang my hat on what some white coats have to offer on the subject. I guarantee most of the hunters that responded have more time in the woods than the white coats do. They have seen more pregnant does than the white coats. I think if you had worded it better. You asked if you were looking at this wrong, first person "I" being you.

There is no crystal ball to tell us what buck bred what doe. So it comes down to speculation only. Not a good thing to measure anything by. Deer in a pen different story. That is where your deer biologist are getting their information. In the real world of hunting it is much different. I think the thread has run it's course with nothing else of value to add.

[wolverinebuckman]

So no one participating in this thread is a deer biologist I take....... You ask for opinions if you’re looking at this situation “wrong”......almost all responses have weighed on the side of “wrong” yet you’re trying to convince everyone you’re not. Do us a favor and go listen to The Deer University podcasts. Those guys have more deer biology knowledge than anyone here I can almost guarantee. Almost worried their insight on the matter won’t be enough to satisfy you

There are no right or wrong answers when it comes down to hypothetical situations. I sure wouldn't hang my hat on what some white coats have to offer on the subject. I guarantee most of the hunters that responded have more time in the woods than the white coats do. They have seen more pregnant does than the white coats. I think if you had worded it better. You asked if you were looking at this wrong, first person "I" being you.

There is no crystal ball to tell us what buck bred what doe. So it comes down to speculation only. Not a good thing to measure anything by. Deer in a pen different story. That is where your deer biologist are getting their information. In the real world of hunting it is much different. I think the thread has run it's course with nothing else of value to add.

Agreed. I have offered every example I could possibly think of to describe why I feel the way I feel. And I fault nobody for shooting does in the late season. Thank you for the mostly respectful debate and exchange of ideas.

[purebowhunting]

How about looking at the potential downside of shooting does in early season. Most seasons start either early October or in September when fawns are 4 to 5 months of age. I think we can all agree at the beginning of season fawns can survive on their own, but a buck with booner genetics losing its mother before 6 months of age now fending for itself through it's first fall and winter isn't going to be as healthy as one with it's mother especially a mature doe. How much does that set back this deer, does poor nutrition early in life effect antler growth for the first 3 years, 4 years, maybe throughout it's life? I think there are too many variables to worry about any of this, but if growing booners are your only goal shooting early isn't necessarially the easy answer. If you think about this from all angles you will talk yourself out of ever shooting does, then youll be forced to look at the lands carrying capacity and how the degraded habitat is not allowing bucks to grow it's maximum sized rack it's genetics could allow. You'll just keep chasing your tail in this discussion.

[Boogieman1]

Being from the land of high fences and where deer farming is the norm I have had easy access to ask questions and hit these folks up for intel that might help me in the wild. First off, not a whole heck of a lot, completely different animal pressure trumps all. But still got some food for thought by talking with them here are somethings I found interesting. Most of these farms are completely operating on commercialized food during days of harsh weather there intake more than doubles. This explains all the does and young deer in the field during cold weather, but makes me think what a isolated food source in heavy cover might be.. Another thing I enjoyed was them saying a lot of times u can tell nothing about a bucks full potential until he’s over 3.5, they have spike bucks who develop into booners given the time to develop. Also even in a controlled environment some bucks are born with a trait to be nocturnal and some prefer daylight movement no matter how old they get. Like I said how this translate to wild pressured deer is suspect but still interesting. My personal opinion is leave the concerns over the genetics to the deer farmers and shoot what makes u happy.

[wolverinebuckman]

How about looking at the potential downside of shooting does in early season. Most seasons start either early October or in September when fawns are 4 to 5 months of age. I think we can all agree at the beginning of season fawns can survive on their own, but a buck with booner genetics losing its mother before 6 months of age now fending for itself through it's first fall and winter isn't going to be as healthy as one with it's mother especially a mature doe. How much does that set back this deer, does poor nutrition early in life effect antler growth for the first 3 years, 4 years, maybe throughout it's life? I think there are too many variables to worry about any of this, but if growing booners are your only goal shooting early isn't necessarially the easy answer. If you think about this from all angles you will talk yourself out of ever shooting does, then youll be forced to look at the lands carrying capacity and how the degraded habitat is not allowing bucks to grow it's maximum sized rack it's genetics could allow. You'll just keep chasing your tail in this discussion.

My preference would be only to shoot a doe with no fawn in tow. Her fawn should be good to go by that point. I watched a doe and her young button buck on camera all season at my grandpa's. I left them both alone. Figured she would make for good buck bait, and maybe he would hang in the area and i could watch him grow.
As for the buck on his own at around 6 months, learning to fend for himself at such a young age could actually benefit him in reaching the mature ages that you're looking for with your booner buck. A buck walking around with it's mother all hunting season will have him in those easy to kill spots doe seem to congregate to. Just a thought.

[wolverinebuckman]

Being from the land of high fences and where deer farming is the norm I have had easy access to ask questions and hit these folks up for intel that might help me in the wild. First off, not a whole heck of a lot, completely different animal pressure trumps all. But still got some food for thought by talking with them here are somethings I found interesting. Most of these farms are completely operating on commercialized food during days of harsh weather there intake more than doubles. This explains all the does and young deer in the field during cold weather, but makes me think what a isolated food source in heavy cover might be.. Another thing I enjoyed was them saying a lot of times u can tell nothing about a bucks full potential until he’s over 3.5, they have spike bucks who develop into booners given the time to develop. Also even in a controlled environment some bucks are born with a trait to be nocturnal and some prefer daylight movement no matter how old they get. Like I said how this translate to wild pressured deer is suspect but still interesting. My personal opinion is leave the concerns over the genetics to the deer farmers and shoot what makes u happy.

Thanks for the info! I live in the land of if it's brown it's down. With 100's of 40 and 80 acre farms in se Michigan, dotted with little timber patches, as well as severely pressured state land, they don't get too many big ones around here. I've seen pictures of a few.
I would have loved to see what the young 9 I shot in October would have been in a couple of years, but if I didn't shoot him he'd probably have died 50' away on the next guys field.

[stash59]

Being from the land of high fences and where deer farming is the norm I have had easy access to ask questions and hit these folks up for intel that might help me in the wild. First off, not a whole heck of a lot, completely different animal pressure trumps all. But still got some food for thought by talking with them here are somethings I found interesting. Most of these farms are completely operating on commercialized food during days of harsh weather there intake more than doubles. This explains all the does and young deer in the field during cold weather, but makes me think what a isolated food source in heavy cover might be.. Another thing I enjoyed was them saying a lot of times u can tell nothing about a bucks full potential until he’s over 3.5, they have spike bucks who develop into booners given the time to develop. Also even in a controlled environment some bucks are born with a trait to be nocturnal and some prefer daylight movement no matter how old they get. Like I said how this translate to wild pressured deer is suspect but still interesting. My personal opinion is leave the concerns over the genetics to the deer farmers and shoot what makes u happy.

Thanks for the info! I live in the land of if it's brown it's down. With 100's of 40 and 80 acre farms in se Michigan, dotted with little timber patches, as well as severely pressured state land, they don't get too many big ones around here. I've seen pictures of a few.
I would have loved to see what the young 9 I shot in October would have been in a couple of years, but if I didn't shoot him he'd probably have died 50' away on the next guys field.

But in this case by you shooting him he definately "did" die. No chance at all of getting a chance to grow older. Maybe he would have got lucky and lived to grow a Booner rack if you hadn't.

Not condemning you for killing him. Just pointing out you can drive yourself crazy speculating on wild deer and the what if's. Buck, doe. fawn or unborn fetus. Your first post asked if you were thinking wrong on the original point. IMHO yes. Because of scientific studies, not so scientific studies and hunter's experiences, personal experiences. I've seen, been told or witnessed.

Later you more or less said it was just a personal preference. So why even ask anybody if it's wrong thinking. It doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks in that case. Do what makes you happy.