Spike buck question?

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Re: Spike buck question?

Unread postby Dthree » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:58 pm

In the part of NC that I hunt, they give you four antlered deer tags and most of the people hunting will shoot the first four bucks they see regardless of size. You ask why they are shooting spike horns and they reply you can't eat the horns but they proceed to cut nothing but the backstraps and hams off the deer and leave the rest. We have unlimited doe tags that they could kill all the does they wanted. But if you put a 125 pound doe and a 75 pound spike horn in front of them standing side by side, the spike horn will get shot 99% of the time.

People are stupid.

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Re: Spike buck question?

Unread postby sgspencer » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:03 am

Boogieman1 wrote:I've read all these studies and they just leave me scratching my head. Quite honestly think they are just trying to sell u the bill of goods they cooked up. They supposedly did a 10 year breeding study for my area and concluded a peak breeding date which isn't even remotely close to anything I have witnessed.

I have to agree with you. Even if the spike study was accurate it is a moot point since it would be difficult to change the genetics in a wild deer herd.
One thing the State did which has had a big impact on antlers is many of the counties that went to the 13 inch spread minimum rule. A lot of people did not like the state regulating what bucks they can harvest but at least here in East Texas we have seen a huge improvement in mature bucks.
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Re: Spike buck question?

Unread postby DEERSLAYER » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:14 pm

It's been a long time since I looked at anything to do with the the Kerr WMA study, but I do remember the scientists/biologists that conducted it later admitted that the study was flawed and therefore did not constitute a true "scientific study".

There used to be numerous examples of bucks growing to 140"+ (including over 200") that were spikes as yearlings. It was not uncommon. These bucks many times sired yearlings which also became trophy bucks. However, it is true that a significantly higher percentage of bucks that were fork horns or better became as big & often bigger racked bucks than the spike yearlings, but this was in controlled environments. In the wild spikes are usually caused by various things, with late birth and poor nutrition being the number one causes.

If I had known all these studies would disappear I would have copied and saved them, but I just assumed they would always be around. I mentioned this years ago to a guy I know that owns Mikes Magic deer lures and he told me the reason I can't find them anymore is because the high fenced trophy buck industry bought out the rights to these articles to hide them from the public because they wanted people to believe you had to pay to hunt genetically controlled environments to have a good chance at a truly huge buck. I'm not sure how much truth there is to what he said but it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I have put in a tremendous amount of time studying genetics. Especially in the early 1980's and I also noticed something the individual researchers didn't seem to pick up on. I noticed that if you introduced high quality nutrition and quality habitat (especially thermal cover) to a deer herd and kept populations at reasonable levels you could take a herd stunted by environmental conditions such as severe winters & poor thermal cover and you could see a dramatic improvement in both rack and body size in 4-6 generations. Usually 4-5.
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Re: Spike buck question?

Unread postby Whitetailaddict » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:34 am

Doesn't make any sense to me from a genetics stand point as you'll never be able to control that in a wild herd. If they are looking to keep numbers about the same then allowing multiple buck harvest may do that while killing does will reduce herd numbers more effectively. Not sure what their goals are
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Re: Spike buck question?

Unread postby Wlog » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:57 am

Culling bucks out of a herd based on antler size doesn't really make sense considering deer are also genetically linked to their mother. I have a cousin who is 6'4" and his Dad is 5'3".
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Re: Spike buck question?

Unread postby stash59 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:52 am

Yeah I've mentioned something like this before. Watch the big time college senior football players walk out onto the field with their parents. For senior day introductions. Most are way bigger than both of their folks. Same with alot of basketball players.

I lived and hunted an area. Where 60% of the years doe fawns were being breed and successfully raised their fawns to next deer season. Most were breed after January 1st. The fawns they raised were smaller than others because they were so much younger. Buck fawns from them were usually spikes their first antler carrying year. But if they made it to 3.5 YO. They met the average for body and antler sizes. For the area for 3.5 YO's.

Easy winters and plenty of quality food was the key to why these super young does had, and raised these fawns.

One gun season our group shot a few bucks opening day. They were all 1.5 YO's. The registration station had biologists tooth aging the deer. A couple of the bucks were aged at 1 year and 7 months. Another at 1 year 6 months. With a couple at 1 year and 5 months. All had 6 total points. But the older bucks antlers were bigger. With the younger bucks progressively smaller. When we weighed them the older bucks were also the heaviest ones, ect.
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Re: Spike buck question?

Unread postby Bonecrusher101 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:55 am

Tennhunter3 wrote:Several big game laws make absolutely no since. I think people who come up with some of the hunting laws have never been hunting.

Several areas ive hunted are 9 point or better which is insane since most mature bucks are 8 points. Dunno who came up with that one either.

I would be crying if i let a 140 inch 8 point walk because he is too small to shoot!

Some of the wmas with antler restrictions here in TN don't make sense to me either. Even the presidents island antlered quota hunt is a either a spike or 9 point or better. It takes 10 years to get drawn for that hunt. Why wouldn't I be proud of a 6 & 1/2 year old 140s 8 point buck if given the opportunity?

John Tully wma has that same antler restrictions also. I let a beauty white antlered stud 130's class 8 point walk under me one December afternoon at John Tully 2010 season. I promise you I counted to 8 like 40 times as he approached, trying to add another point somewhere! I lucked up and killed a 10 point later that season at Tully but I'd have rather had the big 8. The 10 point might have made 115 inches and was only a 2.5 year old.

And why any state would allow or promote spikes to be killed is beyond me. I'm not a herd manager or biologist, but I think youth hunters or even hunters under 21 should be the only ones allowed to kill spikes.
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