Great wiredtohunt podcast on deer research

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JoeRE
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Re: Great wiredtohunt podcast on deer research

Unread postby JoeRE » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:47 am

Yea I was thinking of Moondude's thread when listening to that part too. The 'dude is a friggen deer prophet in my book :lol:

Regarding very tight doe to buck ratios....1:1 doe to buck ratios (or even more bucks than does) is hard on bucks I agree. Its also not natural I think. It is an artificial environment that some landowners introduce just so they see as much rutting activity as possible - at the expense of buck health. When self described QDM people start pushing 1:1 ratios I know all they care about is hunting not deer health. They should call themselves QHM people haha, don't hide your priorities.

Although at birth buck and doe fawns are 50/50 mortality is higher for males because they do get wore out in the rut and winter kill then takes a larger number, so a "natural" adult doe to buck ratio, is higher than 1:1. I am certain I have read that several places but can't find a study on it right now. It makes sense.

Its probably not a lot higher, and I don't know exactly what it is, but my guess would be 1.2:1 or so. That doesn't sound like a big difference but it is - 20% more does than bucks is a lot more does to go around. When ratios get bad the other direction - maybe 3 or 4 adult does to every buck, maybe even more I am not sure on the exact number - that is the condition the podcast was talking about. It causes stress among does, particularly because it usually goes hand in hand with overpopulation. Hunters are only shooting bucks and doe populations balloon.

Stress the does and the antlers & bodies of those buck fawns suffer. That is a very eye-opening finding!


mainebowhunter
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Re: Great wiredtohunt podcast on deer research

Unread postby mainebowhunter » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:41 am

JoeRE wrote:Yea I was thinking of Moondude's thread when listening to that part too. The 'dude is a friggen deer prophet in my book :lol:

Regarding very tight doe to buck ratios....1:1 doe to buck ratios (or even more bucks than does) is hard on bucks I agree. Its also not natural I think. It is an artificial environment that some landowners introduce just so they see as much rutting activity as possible - at the expense of buck health. When self described QDM people start pushing 1:1 ratios I know all they care about is hunting not deer health. They should call themselves QHM people haha, don't hide your priorities.

Although at birth buck and doe fawns are 50/50 mortality is higher for males because they do get wore out in the rut and winter kill then takes a larger number, so a "natural" adult doe to buck ratio, is higher than 1:1. I am certain I have read that several places but can't find a study on it right now. It makes sense.

Its probably not a lot higher, and I don't know exactly what it is, but my guess would be 1.2:1 or so. That doesn't sound like a big difference but it is - 20% more does than bucks is a lot more does to go around. When ratios get bad the other direction - maybe 3 or 4 adult does to every buck, maybe even more I am not sure on the exact number - that is the condition the podcast was talking about. It causes stress among does, particularly because it usually goes hand in hand with overpopulation. Hunters are only shooting bucks and doe populations balloon.

Stress the does and the antlers & bodies of those buck fawns suffer. That is a very eye-opening finding!


I would 100% agree. That was very interesting. I think we all view these podcasts through the glasses of our state and where we hunt. Here in Maine pour nutrition and long winters really stress does, stressing the fawn. So that even when its born under stress, the buck antler size has been altered. So much of what we see MIGHT not just be related to genetics but more related to bad nutrition.

Maine also has a really unbalanced deer herd because the management here is ODM also...but its Quantity Deer Management, not quality. So unless you get a doe tag, no shooting does during rifle season. What gets killed are 1.5yr old bucks instead. So I hear guys talk about seeing does all season and never a buck following them. And since we have fewer deer, bucks run ragged and many cover great distances just trying to find doe groups.

What is also interesting is that hunters are pretty divided. Some believe we need MORE doe permits. Others believe our deer herd is too small to be shooting more does. The hardest problem is, like most states, there are so many micro climates of deer when you live this far north. Even 15-20 mile inland micro climates. You can have 2x-3x as much snow 30 miles north of me. BUT the state still manages the deer herd the same way. There is no way really to micro manage all of individual areas. Urban hunting locally has 7-10 dpsm. Off shore islands 12 miles away have 40-60 dpsm and both places are managed the same way. The offshore islands have poor nutrition and most 3.5yr old bucks are no bigger than 125-140#. But they have very little snow and no predators. The herd can see a 30% kill and still rebound the next season. Fawn recruitment is very high. Its interesting because the lack of body size could be more related to nutrition than just genetics.
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Re: Great wiredtohunt podcast on deer research

Unread postby tbunao » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:56 am

Wow! I don't think I've ever been so glued to a podcast!
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Re: Great wiredtohunt podcast on deer research

Unread postby mainebowhunter » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:04 am

Wow. 130-135" 3.5 yr could be a 150 or 160 at 5.5. My buddy killed a 148" main frame 8pt (145" with 3" sticker) that we believe was no more than 3.5. That buck at 5.5 would have great potential to be a booner.
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Re: Great wiredtohunt podcast on deer research

Unread postby venisonassassin » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:29 pm

Good stuff thanks for posting the link
JoeRE
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Re: Great wiredtohunt podcast on deer research

Unread postby JoeRE » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:12 am

mainebowhunter wrote:Wow. 130-135" 3.5 yr could be a 150 or 160 at 5.5. My buddy killed a 148" main frame 8pt (145" with 3" sticker) that we believe was no more than 3.5. That buck at 5.5 would have great potential to be a booner.


The biggest 2 year old I ever saw was one that had a small home range on a farm I hunted as a teenager. He was a typical 10 with forked brows, very distinctive. Would have grossed upper 130s/140 at 2, probably a world class deer. My brother passed him and he made it to 3 - still a typical 10 with split brows and grossing over 170. He disappeared in October that year pretty sure a poacher got him so will never know what he would have turned into but it probably would have been a 200+ inch...his momma must have been taking her vitamins :lol:

I found a 135 inch 10 point 2 year old dead last spring. That's the only other 2 year old I have seen like that I can think of. Sure I don't know exact age but am 99% sure in both these cases. World class genetics+nutrition+super healthy momma!

Average 2 year olds around here are 110-115 inches. Occasionally will see one close to P&Y, that is a special animal. Average 3 year old is 125-130....and this is the breadbasket of the whitetail world. When I see a 125 inch 3 year old I am pretty certain he will never break 150 his entire life.

There seems to be a split right around there, if they hit 130+ as a 3 year old those antlers keep packing on the inches the next couple years. If they don't, then they never will. Only a few exceptions. Not sure if anyone else notices this.
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Re: Great wiredtohunt podcast on deer research

Unread postby bones09 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:53 am

JoeRE wrote:Average 2 year olds around here are 110-115 inches. Occasionally will see one close to P&Y, that is a special animal. Average 3 year old is 125-130....and this is the breadbasket of the whitetail world. When I see a 125 inch 3 year old I am pretty certain he will never break 150 his entire life.

There seems to be a split right around there, if they hit 130+ as a 3 year old those antlers keep packing on the inches the next couple years. If they don't, then they never will. Only a few exceptions. Not sure if anyone else notices this.



I agree with this. I can't put a number on what they should score as a 3yo but it takes tine length to score well. 99% of the time you can see that potential when the buck is 3.
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Re: Great wiredtohunt podcast on deer research

Unread postby stash59 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:33 am

Gotta agree great PC. This and other discussions on the Beast have been changing my thoughts on average antler sizes for all age classes.

Good stuff on how doe stress during embryonic growth affects body and antler size.

Also made me think about a 5 or 6 YO buck with extra small headgear. They're as rare as a BC record buck. And in my eyes just as much of a trophy.
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Re: Great wiredtohunt podcast on deer research

Unread postby stash59 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:43 am

On doe stress while carrying in the womb. Also got me thinking about how this may get worse with each generation. If a doe fawn is born after a stressful time in the womb. Then is stressed the entire time until giving birth to her 1st fawn. This fawn should be even smaller. And on and on.
Happiness is a large gutpile!!!!!!!


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