Ethical Decisions - an internal struggle? Should it be?

[Dewey]

Sounds like we're thinking the same way Dave. I was typing my reply while you posted just now.

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[Swampbuck]

All valid points guys. I do wonder what will be next.... projectiles fired from a drone? laser guided arrows? Thermal imaging weapons? Somehow I think we all have our personal lines - probably shaped by when we started. However, I don't think it should be left up to each individual hunter and their conscience as I have seen some folks that really don't display much ethics and very little conscience. But that is my personal observation/call.

I fully agree with that. I think once things offer such an advantage like those things might they would/should be banned. And it's up to us to ensure that happens.

[ Post made via Android ]

[Dewey]

Remember internet hunting where you could shoot a live deer from your computer by remote controlled gun?

Sure glad that got banned very quickly.

Lot's of crazy things get axed pretty quick thankfully. Drones are another and most states ban them for hunting purposes.

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[stash59]

Yeah when its only about the kill and no longer the journey. It's gone too far!!!!!

[Jrichard]

Honestly in my opinion I use what ever I have to to get the job done. I bought a crossbow, compound bow, muzzle loader, shot gun, and 30-06. Now if you look at a muzzle loader. It shoots far n fast. So does a crossbow. But you can use a cross bow all year long, but you can only use a muzzle loader / shotgun for weeks out of the year (RI and CT). I dont have many experience with past hunting seasons and deer populations, but I do listen to every hunter that walks into the bait shop i got to all the time and they all say the same thing. (horizontal hunter and I have been talking about it as well.) People dont see it but I have shot my mathews dagger at a target that was set up 100 yards away and successful hit inside the red ring. I mean you need an open area shot, but a lot of people have food plots and all that stuff. So its pretty much a chip shot anywhere from 20 to 60 yards. I also know a ton of guys who smoke that hunt. They smoke all day, go out in the woods and get in a tree. Sometimes they smoke in the tree and still kill 8-10 deer a year. And they use nothing but a crossbow.

Let me put it this way. Open up Shotgun season from september 15 to January 31st and see where the deer population goes lol. Luckily in RI and most of CT baiting is illegal.

Hearing that hunters used to see multiple deer every sit on public land, and now you only 1 or 2 every 4 or 5 sits is kind of sickening. I hunt a farm in RI and honestly there are 20 or 30 deer in the area and I have a 50 50 shot at shooting a deer in a spot that was handed down to me from a friend and I still don't see many deer. I think Tag limits should really be much more strict and the rules should be changed a bit. But IDK enough of what used to be to be able to argue in depth on this topic. I am just sharing my experience.

As far as technology. I like it. Back in the day I am sure people used to say the same thing about tree stands as they do about phones, cameras, ect.

[Swampbuck]

Good points jrichard. I think problems are due more to liberal limits, and less hunting ground than technology.

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[cbigbear]

Technology general makes up for time or lack there of. If time were unlimited pretty sure most members could resort to techno free hunting. What a person deems ethical is likely tied closely to their location & free time. For example drones are outlawed in some western states & rightly so they offer a serious advantage due to open terrain, but you could fly a drone down here for mths & be lucky to spot one deer.

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[Jrichard]

^^ with that being said though, handicaps and such should be taken into consideration. If you're older and you cant pull back a bow or whatever it may be then it should be an exception.

Now I see why they just made crossbows legal in general. everyone was getting notes and getting them anyway. But I do think crossbows are bitter sweet.

I bought it in a desperation act to get my first deer. But now that I have the spots that I have found, I am confident I am not going to need it. So Ill either retire it or sell it.

[Kraftd]

Remember internet hunting where you could shoot a live deer from your computer by remote controlled gun?

Sure glad that got banned very quickly.

Lot's of crazy things get axed pretty quick thankfully. Drones are another and most states ban them for hunting purposes.

[ Post made via iPhone ]

By and large, I don't view this as an ethical discussion in many regards. In my opinion, any of the current "advantages" that are legal, don't make bowhunting easier than rifle hunting, which I personally have no ethical issue with, so it's not an issue of ethics. If rifle hunting is ethical, which I believe, then making archery hunting "easier" remains within clear ethical boundaries if done legally. That being said, I can completely understand wanting a greater challenge. I don't really do much rifle hunting anymore for that reason, and I know you're a traditional guy. I plan on going that route, but know that right now I don't have the time to dedicate to practice that I need to be ethical about it.

Now drones and some of the items in your last post, that starts to get into ethics to me. Even the cell cams make me a little squidgy. Great tool if used to as on the fly inventory, but set up over a bed and used to run out that night if the buck shows makes me a little uncomfortable.

[whitetailassasin]

I have noticed a shift in guys targeting specific deer more and more. It's always been that way, but it's seems to be more so now. Given that any of us that do that, we are passing deer, letting the grow older and more mature. With the use of cameras and even cell cameras it's aided in doing so, along with those of us that have families and work, still have that oppurtinity to do so. I would think that this is helping herd structure, thus maybe even making hunting more preserved for those that are coming in the future. The DNR need to focus on keeping bag limits at a respectable ratio so that way our wildlife thrives. To me hunting is by definition still what those of us using technology or advancements in technology are doing. You still have to put in the work to find the deer, bedding, etc, your just improving your odds of keeping tabs on or locating them, with cameras. Dave I know you shoot traditional, and I shoot compound, so I know there is a grey area in regards to those types of advancements. Where do you draw the line, 500 fps bows? or how about musket muzzleloaders vs inline muzzleloaders? Rifles to shoot guns? Tree stands, groundblinds? How about improvements to such things? Mods for example? For me it has to do with am I taking away from actually hunting an animal, am I hurting the ecosystem around it, and am I harming the animals I pursue by my use of whatever technology I feel I'm using? If I can answer those with yes I'm still hunting and no I'm not harming the wildlife and ecosystem around, then I feel my etchics are in check.

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[darenative]

When the thrill of the case is overshadowed by the ease of the hunt, you have crossed a boundary that probably shouldn't have been.

[JoeRE]

Dave I certainly know where you are coming from. I suspect these misgivings would be strongest among hunters who have been able to see the change over several decades. For newer hunters, what we have now is what they have always known. I am an oddball because I am not that old, but have a unique background where I started very simply by necessity. There was no money for gadgets.

The way I look at it, any single technological leap is pretty easy to justify. I also hate the idea of knee-jerk "bans" on most things. We already have great steaming heaps of useless governmental regulations. However my real concerns lie in the fact when all these technology aids are added together, what are we loosing in return. What is the solution? I will be brutally honest and say there probably is not one. History proves those of us that whine about progress just get steam rolled....

We can start with weapons, that has the most impact on success. This will never happen because it would cause an uproar, but I would be in favor of redistributing hunting seasons to more accurately reflect level of difficulty in using that weapon. There should be incentives such as longer seasons for TRUE primitive weapons such as traditional archery equipment and flintlock muzzleloaders. I have heard rumors of some states considering this but probably just rumors. Lets let traditional archers hunt all of September here in Iowa, and flintlock muzzleloaders more into January. That would be a nice incentive.

The modern in-line scoped muzzleloader, crossbow, or even compound bow are not "primitive" weapons. I know my muzzleloader, throwing a projectile at around 2,300 fps and capable of MOA accuracy is really just a single shot rifle. Same with my modern compound bow. Just getting into using a recurve and the level of additional skill required is very apparent. This sure would make my muzzleloader and bow seasons a lot more challenging but I would happily do it in exchange for more generous seasons. My god would the lynch mobs form over that though. Probably angered a bunch of people on here just by bringing it up, sorry

[woodswalker]

I don't have a problem with the technological advances in bows and arrows and ammunition or optics etc. What I do have a problem with is using gadgets and gizmos to take the place of woodsman skills. I don't and won't own a game camera, unless I buy one for security reasons to identify someone poking around where they shouldn't be. Most of my friends use game cameras and I do as well as they do without them by scouting and getting to really know the property I hunt. They are game camera's that you can check from the comfort of your living room on your computer and never even have to go into the woods to pull the pictures. there are other electronic gadgets such as small transmitters that can be attached to an arrow which sends signals to a receiver to locate deer which were hit. One thing I have found blatantly obvious is that the skill of tracking is rapidly disappearing from the hunting population. I can't tell you how many wounded deer I have successfully tracked for people who didn't know how to follow a blood trail, some of the blood trails were so obvious that I didn't even have to bend over to see them. I have run into people who didn't know how to tell which direction deer were moving by looking at the tracks. There was a time when hunters could identify tree species and shrub species which is invaluable in deer hunting, as well as other species, no more, other than it is an oak tree or a pine tree. Ask the what species of oak or conifer tree it is and many don't know. Enough of the soap box, I just really hate to see skills that used to be passed down from one generation to another disappear because technology takes the place of skill. To me, woodsmanship skills are part and parcel of hunting.

[jonsimoneau]

A wise man once said we must be careful not to overwhelm the deer with technology. I'm at the point where I wish the technology would just stay where it is now. I'm fine with most of it to a degree but it's gone far enough in my opinion.

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[mheichelbech]

I see ethical boundaries being crossed where some (or maybe many) appear to be moving away deer hunting and more into deer farming via heavily managed private parcels with deer essentially being fed like cattle and the real challenge is whether or not the targeted buck shows up on a given day while the hunter sits in what is essentially a scent proof house "aka" blind, and one of the most important choices the hunter makes is when to open the window for shooting. I happened to be watching an episode of a Drury show the other day and they tried to make this decision (when to open the window) to be some drama filled moment (filled with typical drama music). It was very disappointing and I think it paints a bad picture of hunting....all around really.
If you want to talk about different technologies crossing boundaries I think these scent and sound proof blinds that are really almost miniature houses should be included in the discussion. Not talking about pop up blinds...I'm talking about these $2-$3,000 "houses".
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