Let's Talk Playing The Wind

[dan]

A lot of the time I actually set up on a wind that is almost wrong knowing that the thermals are going to drop before the buck leaves the bedding area and gets to a position he could scent me.. Most of the time in early season they don't get far enough to kill till after thermal drop, and that's a pretty predictable occurrence. Every now and then a smaller buck or doe comes out early and blows the whistle though...

[DaveT1963]

This is an over-simplified drawing of what I was referring to about hunting a travel corridor and not a solo bed. Let's assume that scouting has determined the bucks use this elevation and bench to travel from west to east (doe bedding to doe bedding during pre-rut) in the morning. Old rub lines and trial cameras can clue you into the exact elevation and travel preference and in some cases when they are doing it. Let's further assume the red line illustrates a bench the bucks like to travel along. The blue arrow indicates the wind for the day and the smaller yellow arrow indicates thermal wind direction in the AM (once temps heat up and cause the thermals to kick in). The green is my morning approach.




The two orange stars are where I usually find most people trying to set up based on wind direction or thermals. The problem with this approach is that if the buck comes through prior to thermals (morning illustration) he will bust you in the north stand and thus the stand to the south would be better. However, if he comes in after thermals kick in, the south stand would get you busted. It is a never ending game trying to pick which will overpower the other at either stand and falling temps, cloud cover, wind shifts, etc., can all effect when and if thermals will kick in and/or override normal winds. The other option is at the head of the header where they cross but once again wind and thermals will change and can bust you. You could also set up on the opposite side (ravine header is the funnel) I personally prefer to set up before they get to the funnel as opposed to after the exit the funnel. My reasoning is that I feel funnels catch their attention and they will focus in on the funnel area - after they pass through they tend to meander with their attention and are more likely to pick you up drawing your bow, positioning, etc...)

So I would set up at the yellow star for a pre-rut stand. In this example a ravine will force the buck to head either into the wind and with the thermal to his back (assuming the thermal has kicked in). He will do this because of the steepness of the ravine where I have my stand and he will naturally head towards an easier crossing (more level ground higher up the header) Either way he will not pick up your scent until after a shot is presented. And in most cases you will have an additional thermal or wind effect caused by the creek/ravine that will further enhance your wind not getting to the bucks nose.

This is a very over-simplified drawing but illustrates using natural or created restrictions that for a moment alter the bucks preferred movement using the wind and shifting it to you favor. This same tactic/approach can be used in the late afternoon as a buck leaves his bedding. Instead of relying on the Thermal Tunnel, I prefer to find an ambush spot that the bucks are using during daylight and that forces them to go into a wind advantage travel pattern for me. This is one of the key concepts that Barry goes over in his Whitetail boot camps - using these specific situations to catch a buck, that for the most part uses the wind to travel, and yet temporarily forgoes the wind advantage due to ease of travel. In some cases the best approach may be from the top really depends on where you are hunting.

[ZSV]

I made up this hypothetical setup in some random area I zoomed in to to give an example of the closest I would want to play it with a forecast straight west wind. Blue circle would be my setup...if there was any north in the westerly wind at all I would not try it.

Thanks for posting the picture. I learn things better by seeing them.

I know it's not a real setup, but I have a question about your stand placement. Being below the trail, would you be high in a tree or would it work to be on the ground if the thermals were falling when the buck got out of his bed (like Dan talks about in a later post)?

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[DaveT1963]

BTW -I can not use this tactic in Texas - at least where I hunt, as we don't have steep ravines going up hills. So what can I use when I am hunting in Texas as opposed to Ohio where I can definitely use headers to my advantage? How can I create this type of situation in the flat Texas ground????????? Well one example is that I find some ravines that are pretty brush filled, or a blackberry thicket, etc., and I will cut a path through the thick brush and create the same effect as a header does.... it makes it easy for the deer to cross at that point and thus they will often forgo the wind advantage briefly for ease of travel. It works.

[csoult]

Thanks for posting the picture. I learn things better by seeing them.

I know it's not a real setup, but I have a question about your stand placement. Being below the trail, would you be high in a tree or would it work to be on the ground if the thermals were falling when the buck got out of his bed (like Dan talks about in a later post)?

[ Post made via iPhone ]

For me in this situation you will still need to be as high as possible. In the example he gives it seems as though the tree he will be in will be below the deer, and he shpould be good for wind/thermal regardless. But.... you would still not want to be in the direct line of sight with the deer.

[csoult]

This is an over-simplified drawing of what I was referring to about hunting a travel corridor and not a solo bed. Let's assume that scouting has determined the bucks use this elevation and bench to travel from west to east (doe bedding to doe bedding during pre-rut) in the morning. Old rub lines and trial cameras can clue you into the exact elevation and travel preference and in some cases when they are doing it. Let's further assume the red line illustrates a bench the bucks like to travel along. The blue arrow indicates the wind for the day and the smaller yellow arrow indicates thermal wind direction in the AM (once temps heat up and cause the thermals to kick in). The green is my morning approach.




The two orange stars are where I usually find most people trying to set up based on wind direction or thermals. The problem with this approach is that if the buck comes through prior to thermals (morning illustration) he will bust you in the north stand and thus the stand to the south would be better. However, if he comes in after thermals kick in, the south stand would get you busted. It is a never ending game trying to pick which will overpower the other at either stand and falling temps, cloud cover, wind shifts, etc., can all effect when and if thermals will kick in and/or override normal winds. The other option is at the head of the header where they cross but once again wind and thermals will change and can bust you. You could also set up on the opposite side (ravine header is the funnel) I personally prefer to set up before they get to the funnel as opposed to after the exit the funnel. My reasoning is that I feel funnels catch their attention and they will focus in on the funnel area - after they pass through they tend to meander with their attention and are more likely to pick you up drawing your bow, positioning, etc...)

So I would set up at the yellow star for a pre-rut stand. In this example a ravine will force the buck to head either into the wind and with the thermal to his back (assuming the thermal has kicked in). He will do this because of the steepness of the ravine where I have my stand and he will naturally head towards an easier crossing (more level ground higher up the header) Either way he will not pick up your scent until after a shot is presented. And in most cases you will have an additional thermal or wind effect caused by the creek/ravine that will further enhance your wind not getting to the bucks nose.

This is a very over-simplified drawing but illustrates using natural or created restrictions that for a moment alter the bucks preferred movement using the wind and shifting it to you favor. This same tactic/approach can be used in the late afternoon as a buck leaves his bedding. Instead of relying on the Thermal Tunnel, I prefer to find an ambush spot that the bucks are using during daylight and that forces them to go into a wind advantage travel pattern for me. This is one of the key concepts that Barry goes over in his Whitetail boot camps - using these specific situations to catch a buck, that for the most part uses the wind to travel, and yet temporarily forgoes the wind advantage due to ease of travel. In some cases the best approach may be from the top really depends on where you are hunting.

The buck I shot last year was at the head of a draw just as you described here, although it was during the rut. I scouted it specifically for a rut stand and it was my first time in the tree for the year. It was a great funnel but too far away (300 yds) from any beds to hunt early season.

[DaveT1963]

I made up this hypothetical setup in some random area I zoomed in to to give an example of the closest I would want to play it with a forecast straight west wind. Blue circle would be my setup...if there was any north in the westerly wind at all I would not try it.

Thanks for posting the picture. I learn things better by seeing them.

I know it's not a real setup, but I have a question about your stand placement. Being below the trail, would you be high in a tree or would it work to be on the ground if the thermals were falling when the buck got out of his bed (like Dan talks about in a later post)?

[ Post made via iPhone ]

From what I can tell JoeRE is being very precise with how he plays the wind and is not necessarily relying on thermals or winds to push his scent above the deer - he is relying on consistent wind moving his scent stream just off the buck's approach all the while giving the buck a false sense of security he has wind advantage. I may be wrong but that is what I see in his approach.

This is advanced stuff and to me it takes a very dedicated student of the woods and winds to pull it off consistently. But then again Joe RE doesn't strike me as an average hunter - his lifetime of learning is freely shared and valued. However, please don't think theses set ups are easily seen or manipulated, IMHO it takes years of paying attention to these things while scouting to pull it off consistently.... Joe had paid his dues to gain this ability - IMO

[JoeRE]

Thanks Dave, I have learned a thing or two but don't get me wrong I still booger things up and cuss out hill country winds at some point(s) every season. I am just getting to the point where I feel comfortable pushing the envelope, seeing what I can get away with.

Csouth explained that setup just like I would. Hunt high because I am down slope of the trail. I want to be above any updraft AND probably above eye level of the approaching buck. Otherwise he will nail me. If you knew you would have falling thermals for your whole hunt, yes you could pull off a ground setup below the travel route. One of the challenges of ground hunting is being at complete mercy of any switch in leeward slope updraft or downdraft.

The bigger the hills, the greater the thermal activity you can expect. Southerly slopes have more thermal activity than northerly ones. On top of that, the stronger the wind, the greater the vacuum effect on leeward slopes which is a completely separate activity. That is why I started talking about updraft and downdrafts above, not sure how else to describe it. Rising thermals will align with the vacuum effect pulling air up leeward slopes, but around sunup/sundown the thermals will be falling like Dan just mentioned - opposite of what the vacuum effect wants to do. THE STRONGER ONE WINS, and that can change by the minute.

When I see a hard sustained wind, the corresponding leeward slope vacuum updraft will override falling thermal activity most of the time believe it or not. The updraft is a result of the high speed air having lower pressure than more calm air "behind" the leeward slope, like I have mentioned before don't try to understand that just accept it as a rule of fluid mechanics. I remember a good example of this last fall hunting - November 12th by my hunting log. I was targeting some bedding that was on a low leeward bench, there was a screaming wind that day, gusts over 40 mph. I set up at least half way down that slope, on the ground no less, the noise and movement of the wind above me helped cover my approach. I had a buck come out of the bedding below me after sundown. Logically, falling thermals should have carried my scent down to him but the strong sustained wind kept an updraft in my face on that leeward slope the whole time. He never had a clue I was there, just wasn't the buck I was after. I still feel pretty darn good about guessing right on that hunt. That was a very unique situation but the success was the result of many past failures. Lighter winds often dies down right around sunset and wham you can have falling thermals take over, no vacuum updraft on leeward slopes.

I drew up a quick sketch of this situation. Its not the spot but is very similar, just was an east facing slope w/ a west wind instead of a north facing slope w/ a south wind. Keep in mind this is a very UNIQUE bedding situation due to hunting pressure up high mainly. Screaming winds up high didn't hurt either. Most of the time yes deer are bedding up high in hill country.



Anyway, about the 1st hypothetical example I posted. I would add that setup better be high enough with a decent breeze to carry my scent over the thermal tunnel/mixing zone because otherwise it probably will get carried down along the mixing zone toward the bedding. The flatter the terrain you are dealing with the more challenging pinpointing those spots can be in my experience. Big hills make things a lot more obvious.

I know all that is really getting into the gritty details, a good rule of thumb starting out is to hunt high, try to keep your scent stream above those mixing zones that deer love to travel along just like is preached in Dan's hill country DVD...and practice steep shots I still try to keep travel routes out of that 45 degree downwind section whenever possible, falling thermals (if the wind is light as it often is, little vacuum updraft) can draw your scent down even when hunting high.

I have to tap out on this conversation for the afternoon, work to do

[Kraftd]

I've personally done very little hill hunting, but these threads are just incredible. Most of my lectures in engineering school weren't this technical yet presented so well. The Beast is just and incredible resource!

I don't have much to add beyond that, though in non-hill situations, just off winds are also when I have my most predictable success on mature deer. It is generally what I look for most of the time. My experience has been that many times if the wind is bullet-proof for me with no risk, not much shows.

[Mathewshooter]

I've personally done very little hill hunting, but these threads are just incredible. Most of my lectures in engineering school weren't this technical yet presented so well. The Beast is just and incredible resource!

I don't have much to add beyond that, though in non-hill situations, just off winds are also when I have my most predictable success on mature deer. It is generally what I look for most of the time. My experience has been that many times if the wind is bullet-proof for me with no risk, not much shows.

I agree. I'm thinking about trying to find some hill country spots just to try some of this stuff out!

[ZSV]

Joe,
Thanks for the detailed explanation and bonus example! I've read, re-read, and will continue to re-read to soak it all in.

Dave,
I absolutely agree that you need to pay your dues (I haven't, less than 5 years of bow hunting experience) to gain knowledge like Joe or any other of you experienced Beast members have.

I apologize if I'm wrong, but I read your post to me like you thought i was trying to cut corners by asking Joe about his setup. I'm not...I know I have to put my time in and I'm putting in as much time as my family allows, but I'd be crazy not to ask any of you questions to help point me in the right direction. After all, isn't that why this forum is here?

Again, I apologize if I read your post the wrong way.....just forget I wrote that last paragraph.

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[DaveT1963]

Sorry if that is how it came across.... I was not directing it toward any one person. I was merely trying to point out that even seeing it on a drawing, to recognize and implement such precise stand placement is tricky and usually takes years of playing to pull it off. Heck I can't pull it off consistently and I've been at this for a while.

But once again, sorry if it came across that way.

Bottom line is that when JoeRE talks tactics I listen as I trust that he has put the time in to know what he is talking about. Duplicating it is a little harder then it may appear.

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[dan]

When I see a hard sustained wind, the corresponding leeward slope vacuum updraft will override falling thermal activity most of the time believe it or not. The updraft is a result of the high speed air having lower pressure than more calm air "behind" the leeward slope, like I have mentioned before don't try to understand that just accept it as a rule of fluid mechanics. I remember a good example of this last fall hunting - November 12th by my hunting log. I was targeting some bedding that was on a low leeward bench, there was a screaming wind that day, gusts over 40 mph. I set up at least half way down that slope, on the ground no less, the noise and movement of the wind above me helped cover my approach. I had a buck come out of the bedding below me after sundown. Logically, falling thermals should have carried my scent down to him but the strong sustained wind kept an updraft in my face on that leeward slope the whole time. He never had a clue I was there, just wasn't the buck I was after. I still feel pretty darn good about guessing right on that hunt. That was a very unique situation but the success was the result of many past failures. Lighter winds often dies down right around sunset and wham you can have falling thermals take over, no vacuum updraft on leeward slopes.

I drew up a quick sketch of this situation. Its not the spot but is very similar, just was an east facing slope w/ a west wind instead of a north facing slope w/ a south wind. Keep in mind this is a very UNIQUE bedding situation due to hunting pressure up high mainly. Screaming winds up high didn't hurt either. Most of the time yes deer are bedding up high in hill country.

Great post... It takers a pretty good wind to have the vacuum stay and over power the thermal, but it happens... I also see this a lot in flat farm land where wind over trees creates a vacuum with occasional gusts pulling your scent back into the woods

[ZSV]

Bottom line is that when JoeRE talks tactics I listen as I trust that he has put the time in to know what he is talking about. Duplicating it is a little harder then it may appear.

[ Post made via Android ]

Agreed! Like I said in the last post, just forget that last paragraph. :)
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

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[justdirtyfun]

Dan I have been in that set up on flat land. Even with my milkweed laying at the base of my tree(oops) when the deer blew I understood the backdraft. I was so close to the treeline edge it was creating a swirl opposite the main wind direction.

This past weekend in a hill area I might be able to exploit what Dave t is describing. At the top half of a steep slope is what I want to describe as a wall aiming up to virtually the top of the ridge. The deer want to be at the 1/3 down elevation but will be circling this wall feature and providing a nice ambush location.
If I hunt it early it might work for bedding going to nearby food and once rut kicks off it ends a very long leeward Ridge.

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