Is a rub more than just a rub?

[Wannabelikedan]

Bump.

Been really putting thought into rubs and their significance. Yes, I do believe they can tell a story. Yes, there is a reason behind each one they make yet there is still more to them than we realize or can reason.

There is some form of preference in what species of trees bucks will rub on. It varies region to region, buck to buck. There are many variables outside of just tree species to consider. I believe the biggest factor in species preference is the scent of the tree. Location is the biggest factor to why a rub is made IMO. I’ve also witnessed a lack of rubs in areas that geographically made sense based on sign but lacked preferable trees to rub on. In short, I see a direct correlation between the amount of rubs and the amount of available “rub-worthy” trees.

The other thing that really boggles me are annual rubs. They make sense geographically speaking but when there are many other “rub-worthy” trees available, what is it that attracts a buck to rub on a tree he rubbed a year ago? My theory of why lies in their nose. The one thing we can’t even begin to comprehend is scent. Deer are simply on another level with nearly 300 million smell receptors. I believe either scent lingers longer than we think or the trees are giving off a scent signature different than other trees that have not been rubbed on.

Curious what other’s thoughts are on rubs being this thread hasn’t seen a lot of attention as of late.

[Steelhead125]

I don't think bucks are smart enough to use a rub as a warning sign saying "stay away from here, there's a hunter set up here". That would require a really high level of reasoning thinking about the future, animals don't do that - you probably could teach that deer to read and write lol. I would say its more of a subconscious reaction to a perceived intruder even though the buck can smell it was a human and not another buck.

Agreed

I have never noticed this but man is that intersting. If I had to guess I would agree that it’s not a warning sign but more caused by some form of anxiety that there is an intruder in his area. It also probably takes a buck with certain personality characteristics to feel compelled to do it.

[ghoasthunter]

Bump.

Been really putting thought into rubs and their significance. Yes, I do believe they can tell a story. Yes, there is a reason behind each one they make yet there is still more to them than we realize or can reason.

There is some form of preference in what species of trees bucks will rub on. It varies region to region, buck to buck. There are many variables outside of just tree species to consider. I believe the biggest factor in species preference is the scent of the tree. Location is the biggest factor to why a rub is made IMO. I’ve also witnessed a lack of rubs in areas that geographically made sense based on sign but lacked preferable trees to rub on. In short, I see a direct correlation between the amount of rubs and the amount of available “rub-worthy” trees.

The other thing that really boggles me are annual rubs. They make sense geographically speaking but when there are many other “rub-worthy” trees available, what is it that attracts a buck to rub on a tree he rubbed a year ago? My theory of why lies in their nose. The one thing we can’t even begin to comprehend is scent. Deer are simply on another level with nearly 300 million smell receptors. I believe either scent lingers longer than we think or the trees are giving off a scent signature different than other trees that have not been rubbed on.

Curious what other’s thoughts are on rubs being this thread hasn’t seen a lot of attention as of late.

they absolutely are scent based ive ran cameras on rubs and gets lots of pictures of different buck rubs. close too the rut i find a black tar on rubs from mature bucks that black stuff is secreted from forehead glands bucks dont have that patch on there head for no reason that section of hair is like a sponge that holds glad scent. they use it too mark trees the rub itself is a flag. ive seen bucks even mark trees just with there forehead and never make a rub the scent will last weeks on them. bucks will rub different trees throughout the season too for east where i hunt i find alot of rubs on eastern iron wood trees in early season. but the bucks never rub them later on even when they are still bedding in same place. they may only teear them up once but they will mark them faintly all year with the glands. if you look at rubs you will see faint scratches on them from there antlers that are fresher than the rub itself some times. it is defiantly communication just like a scrape. there was a guy that posted trail cam pics of this not too long ago if hes reading this put a link up too what you posted.

[Hatchetman]

Interesting thread for sure.

IMO all rubs are not created equal.
I've watched a good number of bucks make rubs.
If you pay attention to the manner in which they make the rub ,the location, and the circumstance you know what I mean.

To me, the small 1.5's do a lot of rubbing with little to no intent on depositing gland scent/marking whatsoever. (" I'm gonna make a rub here but I really don't know why"??)

Then the 2.5's on up seem to make most rubs , with their personal scent deposit being the primary reason. When you watch a buck make these rubs they're easy to distinguish. The slower rub action along with the intermitten smelling and licking of the rub is a dead give away of the bucks intention.

Then there is the aggression/frustration type rub.
Even though there probably is some scent deposit on rubs in this category, I think it's inadvertant.
If you ever witnessed bucks make a rub when they encounter one another its a lot different. The pace is a lot quicker, and the smelling and licking of the rub doesn't happen. The purpose is a to show dominance and that's it. The tree species is not important and a lot of times isn't even a tree at all. Lot's of willow bushes take a beating here. I've even witnessed bucks thrashing in the marsh grass when nothing woody was close by, very cool to see when you're the cause of all the ruckus form your grunting and/or rattling sequence.
In the same category because of it's similarity, is a frustration rub. I've seen this take place when there was a short break in a buck/doe chase sequence when the doe is not being very accepting of the buck. I believe bucks make a lot of these type of rubs when they're dissapointed in the way their breeding season going. If the breeding is taking place by only a select few accepted bucks that leaves all the younger subpar bucks pretty frustrated.
As far as Dan's observance of bucks leaving rubs after he's made a set up in their area...
I definetly would think the bucks is just frustrated or PO'd someone has upset in his territory and now depending on the situation may have to relocate or change his movement plans.
Not a lot different then when you're banking on a certain spot to go in and kill a scouted out big buck and then finding out when you get in there the first time on that perfect wind someone else has a stand set up there...
No, we don't rub a tree but out of frustration, a few choice words are usually muttered under one's breath...

It's tough to understand all the emotions and intentions a buck has during the breeding season but I would guess agression/ frustration rubs make up 40% of the rubs most 2.5 and up bucks make in a season.
Just my 2

[ghoasthunter]

Interesting thread for sure.

IMO all rubs are not created equal.
I've watched a good number of bucks make rubs.
If you pay attention to the manner in which they make the rub ,the location, and the circumstance you know what I mean.

To me, the small 1.5's do a lot of rubbing with little to no intent on depositing gland scent/marking whatsoever. (" I'm gonna make a rub here but I really don't know why"??)

Then the 2.5's on up seem to make most rubs , with their personal scent deposit being the primary reason. When you watch a buck make these rubs they're easy to distinguish. The slower rub action along with the intermitten smelling and licking of the rub is a dead give away of the bucks intention.

Then there is the aggression/frustration type rub.
Even though there probably is some scent deposit on rubs in this category, I think it's inadvertant.
If you ever witnessed bucks make a rub when they encounter one another its a lot different. The pace is a lot quicker, and the smelling and licking of the rub doesn't happen. The purpose is a to show dominance and that's it. The tree species is not important and a lot of times isn't even a tree at all. Lot's of willow bushes take a beating here. I've even witnessed bucks thrashing in the marsh grass when nothing woody was close by, very cool to see when you're the cause of all the ruckus form your grunting and/or rattling sequence.
In the same category because of it's similarity, is a frustration rub. I've seen this take place when there was a short break in a buck/doe chase sequence when the doe is not being very accepting of the buck. I believe bucks make a lot of these type of rubs when they're dissapointed in the way their breeding season going. If the breeding is taking place by only a select few accepted bucks that leaves all the younger subpar bucks pretty frustrated.
As far as Dan's observance of bucks leaving rubs after he's made a set up in their area...
I definetly would think the bucks is just frustrated or PO'd someone has upset in his territory and now depending on the situation may have to relocate or change his movement plans.
Not a lot different then when you're banking on a certain spot to go in and kill a scouted out big buck and then finding out when you get in there the first time on that perfect wind someone else has a stand set up there...
No, we don't rub a tree but out of frustration, a few choice words are usually muttered under one's breath...

It's tough to understand all the emotions and intentions a buck has during the breeding season but I would guess agression/ frustration rubs make up 40% of the rubs most 2.5 and up bucks make in a season.
Just my 2

i think the frustration rubs might be emitting a pheromones or something along that line that will aid in kicking a doe into estrous makes sense too me because i find them often after the first breeding cycle runs threw. what surprises me is the amount of mature does that check rubs kind of like the buck dropping off a dozen roses for his intended girl to be. as she leaves her bedding every day she pauses and admirers his wonderful gift. at the same time younger bucks will see this and so darn i can compete with that. but then a buck of greater or equal dominance finds it. then its a im going too one up you and it turns into may the best man win competition. a lot of times i see big bucks thrash trees that a lesser buck cant. they will pick a pine cedar beach or oak tree full of thick limbs. they will tear it apart and show off how much stronger they are. one thing ive noticed about this is bucks in my area seldom have broken points and fighting scars. i think the bucks are bossing each other around threw displays of strength instead of fighting. kind of like a bunch of guys splitting wood when a couple single ladies stop buy.

[Wannabelikedan]

Interesting thread for sure.

IMO all rubs are not created equal.
I've watched a good number of bucks make rubs.
If you pay attention to the manner in which they make the rub ,the location, and the circumstance you know what I mean.

To me, the small 1.5's do a lot of rubbing with little to no intent on depositing gland scent/marking whatsoever. (" I'm gonna make a rub here but I really don't know why"??)

Then the 2.5's on up seem to make most rubs , with their personal scent deposit being the primary reason. When you watch a buck make these rubs they're easy to distinguish. The slower rub action along with the intermitten smelling and licking of the rub is a dead give away of the bucks intention.

Then there is the aggression/frustration type rub.
Even though there probably is some scent deposit on rubs in this category, I think it's inadvertant.
If you ever witnessed bucks make a rub when they encounter one another its a lot different. The pace is a lot quicker, and the smelling and licking of the rub doesn't happen. The purpose is a to show dominance and that's it. The tree species is not important and a lot of times isn't even a tree at all. Lot's of willow bushes take a beating here. I've even witnessed bucks thrashing in the marsh grass when nothing woody was close by, very cool to see when you're the cause of all the ruckus form your grunting and/or rattling sequence.
In the same category because of it's similarity, is a frustration rub. I've seen this take place when there was a short break in a buck/doe chase sequence when the doe is not being very accepting of the buck. I believe bucks make a lot of these type of rubs when they're dissapointed in the way their breeding season going. If the breeding is taking place by only a select few accepted bucks that leaves all the younger subpar bucks pretty frustrated.
As far as Dan's observance of bucks leaving rubs after he's made a set up in their area...
I definetly would think the bucks is just frustrated or PO'd someone has upset in his territory and now depending on the situation may have to relocate or change his movement plans.
Not a lot different then when you're banking on a certain spot to go in and kill a scouted out big buck and then finding out when you get in there the first time on that perfect wind someone else has a stand set up there...
No, we don't rub a tree but out of frustration, a few choice words are usually muttered under one's breath...

It's tough to understand all the emotions and intentions a buck has during the breeding season but I would guess agression/ frustration rubs make up 40% of the rubs most 2.5 and up bucks make in a season.
Just my 2

Really good input hatchet! Aggression rubs have shown me more random species of trees being rubbed on. Also less “precise” rubbing on those particular trees and more intent on ripping it to shreds.

I’ve noticed through my scouting this winter that when a cedar is present within or very near to the bedding that it is rubbed. Willows are second preference and naturally these areas typically don’t support cedar growth. The third choice are honey locust which rarely support willows in these areas and are second to a cedar if one is present. Conclusively, for my area the sappiest trees (cedars) show the highest preference for rubs. I believe when related to highly desired bedding tree preference has less value in claiming the bedding. But when a preferred species is present it gets rubbed on. I believe it all revolves around scent retention in the sap and/or wood. Whether any of this actually directly helps anyone kill big deer, it still holds value in understanding your prey’s tendencies and understanding what one is seeing in the field scouting.

[DaveT1963]

If you keep accurate journals from year to year rubs can really show you preferred travel routes and also timing of when they use them. Keep in mind rubs are only made when a buck is hard horned. This happens sometimes in Sept for most parts of the country. This also correlates to an increase in buck movement. So late Sept/early Oct rubs are for the most part tied to bed to food patterns where as rubs made after mid Oct are more in relation to doe bedding and doe travel. If you try to use a rub line created in Sept to arrow a buck in Nov - you are probably wasting your time and vice versa. A yearly journal will often reveal consistent travel patterns. Think about it, If buck bed in the same areas because they are the preferred bedding areas, then it is only logical that for the most part they will also use the same travel routes because they are the best/safest from that bedding to their destination. I find these remain very consistent from year to year unless their is a significant change to crop location, doe bedding or buck bedding.

Also, while you sometimes find rubs made in relation to buck bedding, IMO/E mature bucks are kind of hit or miss on rubbing around their bedding areas, some do, some don't. Of course if you find fresh rubs near buck bedding it is also good to note them and throw a sit at them. Rub height to me is the most consistent indicator of a mature buck, size of tree can be misleading in some cases.

It may take a few years, but if you will keep a good journal and annotate where and WHEN rub lines are opened up every year, keep track of food sources (especially crop rotations) and doe bedding areas - you will soon see a definite pattern in many cases.

[dan]

bump

[Mi..Doeslayer]

This makes a lot of sense, and lines up with more than one occasion for me....

[PoppaOtt84]

I'm glad you bumped this one Dan! I've put in quite a few miles this spring on my scouting missions, and every place I go its the same thing: lots of rubs by the parking lots or road, and rubs on the exits of bedding. Also rubs on the transitions of thick cover to open ground. I just couldn't help but notice that these rubs were marking "boundaries". I think they have it hard-wired in them over years of conditioning to mark boundaries to know where they are safe. But, I also realize there's many other ways that rubs are used mentioned in other posts.

If you put an underground electric fence in your yard, the dog will cross it the first time and get the crap shocked out of him. Most dogs only need that one shock, and they quickly associate those boundaries with danger... They don't understand how it works, but they know that area = danger. I think deer are classically conditioned the same way with human scent, being shot at, etc.

[Brad]

Dan, I wouldn't even pretend to know even a small fraction as much as you do about big bucks, but I saw something I believe is a little contrary to what you said back in 2013 (about rubs on small sapings), so I figured I'd mention it. Two Septembers ago I was hunting a spot that I had never been, and was sneaking in to a spot I planned to scout my way in. I was down in a ditch that was probably 8 feet high on both sides, and as I got to the area I wanted to start scouting, the bank was getting down to just over my head, a little less steep, and I noticed a deer trail going up the side. I decided to go up and take a peek and as soon as I did, I bumped a good buck. He jumped around the other side of some brush and stayed there for a while, unaware of my presence, and he eventually wandered off. Once he left i snuck up and peeked in to where he was bedded, and I noticed a small sapling no larger diameter than my index finger twisted completely off, and another fairly small and low rub ion a sapling about as big as my thumb. It looked like a pretty nice buck from what I could see, so I stuck around. I set up on the ground because I was afraid if he didn't go far he'd see me climb. An hour and a half later I needed a drink and set my stuff down... so soon after I hear galloping. He was coming straight at me full gallop, until about 7 yards from me and he came to a halt, staring directly into my soul... without bow in hand. He was a big, thick, mature buck with a thick and tall typical rack that was no less than 160". It was one of the most beautiful bucks I've been close to & one of the coolest encounters I've had my life. Of course I wish I had that opportunity back. But had i not seen the buck, the sign wouldn't have impressed you much.

[Findian]

Dan, I wouldn't even pretend to know even a small fraction as much as you do about big bucks, but I saw something I believe is a little contrary to what you said back in 2013 (about rubs on small sapings), so I figured I'd mention it. Two Septembers ago I was hunting a spot that I had never been, and was sneaking in to a spot I planned to scout my way in. I was down in a ditch that was probably 8 feet high on both sides, and as I got to the area I wanted to start scouting, the bank was getting down to just over my head, a little less steep, and I noticed a deer trail going up the side. I decided to go up and take a peek and as soon as I did, I bumped a good buck. He jumped around the other side of some brush and stayed there for a while, unaware of my presence, and he eventually wandered off. Once he left i snuck up and peeked in to where he was bedded, and I noticed a small sapling no larger diameter than my index finger twisted completely off, and another fairly small and low rub ion a sapling about as big as my thumb. It looked like a pretty nice buck from what I could see, so I stuck around. I set up on the ground because I was afraid if he didn't go far he'd see me climb. An hour and a half later I needed a drink and set my stuff down... so soon after I hear galloping. He was coming straight at me full gallop, until about 7 yards from me and he came to a halt, staring directly into my soul... without bow in hand. He was a big, thick, mature buck with a thick and tall typical rack that was no less than 160". It was one of the most beautiful bucks I've been close to & one of the coolest encounters I've had my life. Of course I wish I had that opportunity back. But had i not seen the buck, the sign wouldn't have impressed you much.

That funny you mention that I’ve been saying that some big bucks rub low. I’ve been really try to understand why some big bucks rub high and some rub low. I think that aggressive bucks rub higher up on tree and i relate that back to some of the bucks I’ve hunted. While more docile bucks rub lower.

But that don’t make sense down in heavy hunted pressure areas or they be shot from all the hunter rattling and calling.

But either way it’s funny hearing everyone around up here mimicking what Dan said years ago.

I honestly don’t know what to think a lot of the time other than you just need to observe the buck. It’s a lot easier for me because I don’t got very many old mature bucks around maybe one every two to three sq miles. I don’t 100 percent know if it’s younger bucks rubbing lower in the bedding and the big boys rub few and far between. Because a lot of the time I also get younger bucks in the same areas as the bigger bucks.

But I do got a trail cam video of a buck that was 6.5 years old 150 plus class that rubbed so low to the ground on a .75” sapling that most would have thought it was made from a younger buck. He used only one side of his antler to hit it low. That’s when I started to pay attention to small rubs.
I also noticed that tracks and dropping’s don’t always mean much either far as head gear goes. I’ve watched a lot of tracking videos of guys that track big tracks and they end up getting a big bodied average rack buck.

But as far as rubs go I’ve noticed that there is like three areas they like to rub at a bedding area rubs will be multi directional with usually a rub direction eventual heading to a feed area if your lucky there be a scrape line also. But a lot of the time the rubs are about 200 yards from the beds not always sometimes further some times right up in the beds also. Then I see rubs marking feed areas and boundaries there usually a lot of scrapes mixed in with these types of rubs. Then I also see random rubs, but when I look more into random rubs they seem to be near doe bedding areas.

I also see old rubs from many years go in the doe bedding areas. I think that the buck population was high back ten fifteen years ago the bucks used to bed there now they’re not bedding there the does took them over but the old rubs remain. I’ll usually find a few scrapes about 100 to 200 yards away from the doe bedding, But not so with buck bedding as much.

[KLEMZ]

Dan, I wouldn't even pretend to know even a small fraction as much as you do about big bucks, but I saw something I believe is a little contrary to what you said back in 2013 (about rubs on small sapings), so I figured I'd mention it. Two Septembers ago I was hunting a spot that I had never been, and was sneaking in to a spot I planned to scout my way in. I was down in a ditch that was probably 8 feet high on both sides, and as I got to the area I wanted to start scouting, the bank was getting down to just over my head, a little less steep, and I noticed a deer trail going up the side. I decided to go up and take a peek and as soon as I did, I bumped a good buck. He jumped around the other side of some brush and stayed there for a while, unaware of my presence, and he eventually wandered off. Once he left i snuck up and peeked in to where he was bedded, and I noticed a small sapling no larger diameter than my index finger twisted completely off, and another fairly small and low rub ion a sapling about as big as my thumb. It looked like a pretty nice buck from what I could see, so I stuck around. I set up on the ground because I was afraid if he didn't go far he'd see me climb. An hour and a half later I needed a drink and set my stuff down... so soon after I hear galloping. He was coming straight at me full gallop, until about 7 yards from me and he came to a halt, staring directly into my soul... without bow in hand. He was a big, thick, mature buck with a thick and tall typical rack that was no less than 160". It was one of the most beautiful bucks I've been close to & one of the coolest encounters I've had my life. Of course I wish I had that opportunity back. But had i not seen the buck, the sign wouldn't have impressed you much.

That funny you mention that I’ve been saying that some big bucks rub low. I’ve been really try to understand why some big bucks rub high and some rub low. I think that aggressive bucks rub higher up on tree and i relate that back to some of the bucks I’ve hunted. While more docile bucks rub lower.

But that don’t make sense down in heavy hunted pressure areas or they be shot from all the hunter rattling and calling.

But either way it’s funny hearing everyone around up here mimicking what Dan said years ago.

I honestly don’t know what to think a lot of the time other than you just need to observe the buck. It’s a lot easier for me because I don’t got very many old mature bucks around maybe one every two to three sq miles. I don’t 100 percent know if it’s younger bucks rubbing lower in the bedding and the big boys rub few and far between. Because a lot of the time I also get younger bucks in the same areas as the bigger bucks.

But I do got a trail cam video of a buck that was 6.5 years old 150 plus class that rubbed so low to the ground on a .75” sapling that most would have thought it was made from a younger buck. He used only one side of his antler to hit it low. That’s when I started to pay attention to small rubs.
I also noticed that tracks and dropping’s don’t always mean much either far as head gear goes. I’ve watched a lot of tracking videos of guys that track big tracks and they end up getting a big bodied average rack buck.

But as far as rubs go I’ve noticed that there is like three areas they like to rub at a bedding area rubs will be multi directional with usually a rub direction eventual heading to a feed area if your lucky there be a scrape line also. But a lot of the time the rubs are about 200 yards from the beds not always sometimes further some times right up in the beds also. Then I see rubs marking feed areas and boundaries there usually a lot of scrapes mixed in with these types of rubs. Then I also see random rubs, but when I look more into random rubs they seem to be near doe bedding areas.

I also see old rubs from many years go in the doe bedding areas. I think that the buck population was high back ten fifteen years ago the bucks used to bed there now they’re not bedding there the does took them over but the old rubs remain. I’ll usually find a few scrapes about 100 to 200 yards away from the doe bedding, But not so with buck bedding as much.

My take on rub height is that on a spindly tree with flex, the mature buck will rub lower than on a thicker, non bendy, tree in order to get the resistance pushing back that he wants. I don't trust a small diameter tree rub to tell me age class. Unless!...there is damage to neighboring trees 12" away, or unless...the small thumb sized sapling is ripped in half at belt high.

Give me a 3" or bigger tree to really be confident in the rub height theory.

Give me an area with old historic tall rubs (on non bendy trees) and a few light, fresh, tine ticks at eyeball level and I'll be thinking mature buck.

Singular sign is tough. I look for multiple bits of info (turd size, track size, bed location, scrape location etc.) to help my confidence in sign reading.

[PoppaOtt84]

Ive heard Magicman talk about that on his videos... that those small diameter "whippy" trees a buck has to rub it low regarsless of age. If they were to rub it high it would bend too much and/or break... cant get any leverage on it.

BUT, i definitely think overall a mature buck rub is higher on most trees like Dan says. Its the sheer size difference of the animal.

[Findian]

Dan, I wouldn't even pretend to know even a small fraction as much as you do about big bucks, but I saw something I believe is a little contrary to what you said back in 2013 (about rubs on small sapings), so I figured I'd mention it. Two Septembers ago I was hunting a spot that I had never been, and was sneaking in to a spot I planned to scout my way in. I was down in a ditch that was probably 8 feet high on both sides, and as I got to the area I wanted to start scouting, the bank was getting down to just over my head, a little less steep, and I noticed a deer trail going up the side. I decided to go up and take a peek and as soon as I did, I bumped a good buck. He jumped around the other side of some brush and stayed there for a while, unaware of my presence, and he eventually wandered off. Once he left i snuck up and peeked in to where he was bedded, and I noticed a small sapling no larger diameter than my index finger twisted completely off, and another fairly small and low rub ion a sapling about as big as my thumb. It looked like a pretty nice buck from what I could see, so I stuck around. I set up on the ground because I was afraid if he didn't go far he'd see me climb. An hour and a half later I needed a drink and set my stuff down... so soon after I hear galloping. He was coming straight at me full gallop, until about 7 yards from me and he came to a halt, staring directly into my soul... without bow in hand. He was a big, thick, mature buck with a thick and tall typical rack that was no less than 160". It was one of the most beautiful bucks I've been close to & one of the coolest encounters I've had my life. Of course I wish I had that opportunity back. But had i not seen the buck, the sign wouldn't have impressed you much.

That funny you mention that I’ve been saying that some big bucks rub low. I’ve been really try to understand why some big bucks rub high and some rub low. I think that aggressive bucks rub higher up on tree and i relate that back to some of the bucks I’ve hunted. While more docile bucks rub lower.

But that don’t make sense down in heavy hunted pressure areas or they be shot from all the hunter rattling and calling.

But either way it’s funny hearing everyone around up here mimicking what Dan said years ago.

I honestly don’t know what to think a lot of the time other than you just need to observe the buck. It’s a lot easier for me because I don’t got very many old mature bucks around maybe one every two to three sq miles. I don’t 100 percent know if it’s younger bucks rubbing lower in the bedding and the big boys rub few and far between. Because a lot of the time I also get younger bucks in the same areas as the bigger bucks.

But I do got a trail cam video of a buck that was 6.5 years old 150 plus class that rubbed so low to the ground on a .75” sapling that most would have thought it was made from a younger buck. He used only one side of his antler to hit it low. That’s when I started to pay attention to small rubs.
I also noticed that tracks and dropping’s don’t always mean much either far as head gear goes. I’ve watched a lot of tracking videos of guys that track big tracks and they end up getting a big bodied average rack buck.

But as far as rubs go I’ve noticed that there is like three areas they like to rub at a bedding area rubs will be multi directional with usually a rub direction eventual heading to a feed area if your lucky there be a scrape line also. But a lot of the time the rubs are about 200 yards from the beds not always sometimes further some times right up in the beds also. Then I see rubs marking feed areas and boundaries there usually a lot of scrapes mixed in with these types of rubs. Then I also see random rubs, but when I look more into random rubs they seem to be near doe bedding areas.

I also see old rubs from many years go in the doe bedding areas. I think that the buck population was high back ten fifteen years ago the bucks used to bed there now they’re not bedding there the does took them over but the old rubs remain. I’ll usually find a few scrapes about 100 to 200 yards away from the doe bedding, But not so with buck bedding as much.

My take on rub height is that on a spindly tree with flex, the mature buck will rub lower than on a thicker, non bendy, tree in order to get the resistance pushing back that he wants. I don't trust a small diameter tree rub to tell me age class. Unless!...there is damage to neighboring trees 12" away, or unless...the small thumb sized sapling is ripped in half at belt high.

Give me a 3" or bigger tree to really be confident in the rub height theory.

Give me an area with old historic tall rubs (on non bendy trees) and a few light, fresh, tine ticks at eyeball level and I'll be thinking mature buck.

Singular sign is tough. I look for multiple bits of info (turd size, track size, bed location, scrape location etc.) to help my confidence in sign reading.

That makes sense. I hunt mainly the swamp tag alder brush of the reservation. But I’ve noticed that out in the hardwood areas in bayfeild next to the oaks the rubs are taller on the tree but the bucks look the same on camera. Maybe it’s the acorn rage they get.