The "red zone"...
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Re: The "red zone"...
I agree with both bucky and Dan on my issue, first I should shoot more deer that I purposely set up on PERIOD, wether does or bucks, as Dan has said before killing will make us better at killing. To Dans point I believe that my problem is not the approach, set-up, or any of the above, it's a lack on my part of having more targets. I feel I may be too conservative with the targets I have because I am not giving myself enough targets, I will start the season with 5 or less targets per year, so when I see my targets I play it close to the chest, whereas if I had more targets due to more scouting I would be more willing to be more aggressive. I think more scouting may be my remedy..... What do you think?
This thread got my wheels turning and hunts past coming back......
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This thread got my wheels turning and hunts past coming back......
[ Post made via iPad ]
Last edited by DropTyne on Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DROPTYNE
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"Obsessed is a Word the Lazy Use to Describe the Dedicated"
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Re: The "red zone"...
Arrowbender wrote:Great topic.
I can't complain about my record in the "red". I have certainly had a few get away. Usually because of what Dewey has problems with; not presenting.
I am probably somewhere in between "waiting for a perfect shot" and forcing the shot. I think if you question most consistent mature buck killers they more than likely are closer to the shot forcer than the perfect shot waiter.
It's a two fold result: you are going to kill more deer and it gives you the experience to evaluate the situation better in the future. The cost of course is the risk of getting the occasional marginal hit.
I am not advocating taking low percentage shots. I am NOT.
Just saying that those that are willing to take risks are going to have more kills.
Probably very similar to QB's in the red zone. Those that throw a lot in the confines of inside the twenty are going to get pic'd sometimes!
Great post Arrow...
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Re: The "red zone"...
dan wrote:Edcyclopedia wrote:dan wrote:My set ups are usually pretty close to the buck and where he stages every time he uses a certain bedding area... Before the trails split.
What do you reccommend for clumbsy hunters (less stealthy).
Windy days or...?
Try harder... Walk slower...
I think if you have an issue sneaking that last hundred yards its probably due to a lack of confidence, or belief that the buck is really there. I think all of us go at un-natural speeds because of our fast paced work and play life... In the woods everything moves slow. Except people.
One of the hardest skills I ever learned. Just keep reminding yourself you are HUNTING not rushing.
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DROPTYNE
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Re: The "red zone"...
DropTyne wrote:dan wrote:Edcyclopedia wrote:dan wrote:My set ups are usually pretty close to the buck and where he stages every time he uses a certain bedding area... Before the trails split.
What do you reccommend for clumbsy hunters (less stealthy).
Windy days or...?
Try harder... Walk slower...
I think if you have an issue sneaking that last hundred yards its probably due to a lack of confidence, or belief that the buck is really there. I think all of us go at un-natural speeds because of our fast paced work and play life... In the woods everything moves slow. Except people.
One of the hardest skills I ever learned. Just keep reminding yourself you are HUNTING not rushing.
[ Post made via iPad ]
I like what Dan said awhile back about sitting down on a log about 100 yards from your tree for awhile, rest a little bit and then just focus on slowing down the rest of the way. I tried this and it works great. Many times we rush setting up tipping off a nearby buck of your location and the hunt is over before it starts.
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Re: The "red zone"...
I can't complain at all about my results with having a shooter buck in the red zone while bowhunting. Its amazing to me actually looking back, when a shooter buck enters bow range I generally get a shot, and when I get a shot I generally connect...some of it must be luck I know. I have hit and lost only one mature buck with a bow in 15 years, and I am proud of that. Missed only a couple too. Given most of what i hunt is farm country and it isn't nearly as hard to set up to ensure a big buck passes within bow range, once you find a location to set up at, as the terrain some of you guys hunt.
Strangely I struggle more with shooting does...it is clearly a concentration thing, but really, really bugs me. Some of my shots have been pretty bad in hindsight. Its not that I don't take harvesting a doe as seriously...that predator instinct that sharpens the senses and slows time down sometimes doesn't kick in though.
Compared to bowhunting mature bucks, I also struggle more with closing the deal on them with a gun. It sounds backwards I know, a gun is inherently easier to aim and shoot at a much longer range blah blah blah, but my problem with gun hunting is that I sometimes get too aggressive, and have made some bad shots as a result. To me it is a lot harder to kill a buck at long range/thick cover than pop a squirrel in the head at 50 yards with a .22...I hunt primarily with a muzzleloader. It is something I am working on.
Strangely I struggle more with shooting does...it is clearly a concentration thing, but really, really bugs me. Some of my shots have been pretty bad in hindsight. Its not that I don't take harvesting a doe as seriously...that predator instinct that sharpens the senses and slows time down sometimes doesn't kick in though.
Compared to bowhunting mature bucks, I also struggle more with closing the deal on them with a gun. It sounds backwards I know, a gun is inherently easier to aim and shoot at a much longer range blah blah blah, but my problem with gun hunting is that I sometimes get too aggressive, and have made some bad shots as a result. To me it is a lot harder to kill a buck at long range/thick cover than pop a squirrel in the head at 50 yards with a .22...I hunt primarily with a muzzleloader. It is something I am working on.
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Re: The "red zone"...
dan wrote:Edcyclopedia wrote:dan wrote:My set ups are usually pretty close to the buck and where he stages every time he uses a certain bedding area... Before the trails split.
What do you reccommend for clumbsy hunters (less stealthy).
Windy days or...?
Try harder... Walk slower...
I think if you have an issue sneaking that last hundred yards its probably due to a lack of confidence, or belief that the buck is really there. I think all of us go at un-natural speeds because of our fast paced work and play life... [glow=red]In the woods everything moves slow. Except people.[/glow]
awesome quote to remember.
The cave you fear hides the treasure you seek!!!
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Re: The "red zone"...
dan wrote: Try harder... Walk slower... I think if you have an issue sneaking that last hundred yards its probably due to a lack of confidence, or belief that the buck is really there. I think all of us go at un-natural speeds because of our fast paced work and play life... In the woods everything moves slow. Except people.
Love this advice. I wouldn't have gotten my buck this year or any on my wall without just slowing down. im not the most nimble. I take my time even setting up stand. No noises period.
I think what has made me sucessful when in the red zone is my year round practice and form.after multiple indoor and 3d leagues. I can make those little bit tougher shots. i practice my fixed blades at 50 and 60 and makes 10 to 30 cake walk. i restrict myself to 30yards 80 percent of time with with whitetail. their just plain to fast if they have any clue, that means no mouth stopping for sure past that. Shot angle if im higher you definetly want farther shot and set up for it that way.
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Re: The "red zone"...
Great post! I can totally relate to this, I struggle with this more than anything else. I will try and explain it but I need work. For me lets call the red zone 30 yards and in. Let me start out by saying I did see progress this year, big time. For starters I never pushed the envelope near enough, I was always set out too far and saw a lot of nice deer in that 50 to 75 yard range all to often. This year I went into the season with my goal to be getting more aggressive. If I got a deer great, if I blew it I knew I needed to back off a bit. I had 3 shots on bucks that I consider shooters, two were 2.5's and the other was a 150" 15 pointer that I choked on. I pushed the envelope and never pushed it too far, but I was out of position twice, and one or two tree's off on either direction and I would have been in great shape. On the first buck I shot at I was set up and he angled in facing right towards my tree, I had not anticipated this but I can see why he did it, there is a well used trails that a lot of bucks use that was leading right to my tree, I did not realize it until I was set up as I didn't see it from the ground, nor did I realise at the time that it was a preferred travel route for bucks to travel and stage in my area before heading down to food. That buck came right to me and saw me at 6 yards, I was not high enough, nor did I have good back cover, and I should have been set up so he wasn't looking right at me as he came in. I took a rushed shot as he started to take off and thank god I missed. That was the first 2.5 year old.
The second one I set up on during the rut in a doe bedding area, or just off it. It was super thick and nasty behind me and on two sides, open in front of me. I did not realise when I set up that there was a primary scrape 20 yards behind me. I picked a bad tree but it was one of two that a climber would get in semi decent, though trimming was required. I trimmed my way up being as quiet as possible. I left a branch that was at my level that angled to my right when I faced the tree because I didn't want to make more noise, I did not anticipate shooting behind me or darn near behind me. That tree branch was blocking my view of the scrape, and after a few hours the 15 point came in (I saw him and 3 other bucks that morning with a hot doe and they entered the woods 50 yards or so from where I set up) and eventually worked into the scrape and when I got my 20 yard shot into the thick brush (I had one small opening) the tree branch was partially in the way. I have the shot on tape with a bow mounted cam, and my suspicions were correct, you can see me draw, struggle to get the broad-head to clear the branch and me adjusting at full draw, and then when the buck came into my opening at 20 yards I shot too fast and went right over top of him. If that branch was not there I could have had at least 5 more seconds to think about the shot and settle down, instead I basically threw off the back leg and chalked up a huge miss on the second biggest buck I have ever shot at, and at a mere 20 yards. I got out of the stand and reposition on the same scrape 180 degree's and scored on a nice buck 15 minutes after getting set up, at 30 yards.
I also killed a doe this season too, but I saw some weakness on that hunt too but it pertained to trying to film the hunt and once again not concentrating on the shot enough.
I too notice that the deer that come in fast I tend to get, but you give me one that takes a minute or more to come in and I struggle, like I over think things or worry too much instead of using auto pilot mode.
So in recap the weakness I saw this year was stand positioning and not noticing very important things from the ground, and thus being slightly out of position when the shot comes. I need to work on this and thinking more about the set up before I leave the ground, and picking exactly where I expect a shot, back cover, correct height, etc.
I saw improvement on the getting close, I saw 5 shooter bucks (saw one twice) this year while hunting, I shot at 3 of them, the 5th one came in while I was climbing the tree which oddly enough was the same buck I missed first that pinned me down at 6 yards, he never does the same thing twice and caught me flat footed the same way both times, and within 30 yards of the spot where the miss was the first time. I pushed the envelope, I had every shooter buck except one inside of 40 yards and got shots from 4 of them, not ideal shots but makable shots. The furthest one was 65 yards on the neighbors land, yet he was bedded exactly where I figured he would be, he just needed to cross a creek, he was the only one out of range but also on wrong property. Now, here is how I improved. First I gave myself plenty of extra time to get into the woods and set the stand. My new rule is I enter the woods and if I want to sit 4 hours, I get there 6 hours before last light etc. This gives me all the time I need to go slow and be quiet, and it allows me to not work up a huge sweat. Two hours is very nice, and if I get set up in 30 minutes I have a 5.5 hour hunt instead of 4, even better. Second I was scouting with the stand on my back most of the time, I had suspicions on where the bucks were bedding (or does during the rut) and I would say to get x amount of yards away, and when I got there I said go 15-30 more yards. I honestly think by doing this I was shaving off those problematic 15 yards that were making 45 yard shots in the past now 20 to 30 yard shots.
I still struggle on the big bucks, I have shot at two bucks over 150" with a bow, I have choked on both of them. I used to choke on 2.5 year olds and could nail 1.5 year olds. I am getting better on those 2.5 year olds and I think in a year or two I will be ready to try my hand on the 3.5 year olds. I see myself getting better as the years go by, and I am seeing better deer, though in all fairness I am hunting a lot better land then I did in the past, but still I see progress in not making the mistakes I used to on other really good land. All of my set ups except one I set up on where I figured I could shoot a big buck, but I took shots at shooter bucks as they came in even if they were not necessarily a true monster. I learned that tip from Dan, set up with the intent to kill the big ones, and then readjust if you feel the need when deer come in, and I think thats why I saw the caliber of bucks I saw this year.
Now does a miss at 20 count as a fumble or an interception?
The second one I set up on during the rut in a doe bedding area, or just off it. It was super thick and nasty behind me and on two sides, open in front of me. I did not realise when I set up that there was a primary scrape 20 yards behind me. I picked a bad tree but it was one of two that a climber would get in semi decent, though trimming was required. I trimmed my way up being as quiet as possible. I left a branch that was at my level that angled to my right when I faced the tree because I didn't want to make more noise, I did not anticipate shooting behind me or darn near behind me. That tree branch was blocking my view of the scrape, and after a few hours the 15 point came in (I saw him and 3 other bucks that morning with a hot doe and they entered the woods 50 yards or so from where I set up) and eventually worked into the scrape and when I got my 20 yard shot into the thick brush (I had one small opening) the tree branch was partially in the way. I have the shot on tape with a bow mounted cam, and my suspicions were correct, you can see me draw, struggle to get the broad-head to clear the branch and me adjusting at full draw, and then when the buck came into my opening at 20 yards I shot too fast and went right over top of him. If that branch was not there I could have had at least 5 more seconds to think about the shot and settle down, instead I basically threw off the back leg and chalked up a huge miss on the second biggest buck I have ever shot at, and at a mere 20 yards. I got out of the stand and reposition on the same scrape 180 degree's and scored on a nice buck 15 minutes after getting set up, at 30 yards.
I also killed a doe this season too, but I saw some weakness on that hunt too but it pertained to trying to film the hunt and once again not concentrating on the shot enough.
I too notice that the deer that come in fast I tend to get, but you give me one that takes a minute or more to come in and I struggle, like I over think things or worry too much instead of using auto pilot mode.
So in recap the weakness I saw this year was stand positioning and not noticing very important things from the ground, and thus being slightly out of position when the shot comes. I need to work on this and thinking more about the set up before I leave the ground, and picking exactly where I expect a shot, back cover, correct height, etc.
I saw improvement on the getting close, I saw 5 shooter bucks (saw one twice) this year while hunting, I shot at 3 of them, the 5th one came in while I was climbing the tree which oddly enough was the same buck I missed first that pinned me down at 6 yards, he never does the same thing twice and caught me flat footed the same way both times, and within 30 yards of the spot where the miss was the first time. I pushed the envelope, I had every shooter buck except one inside of 40 yards and got shots from 4 of them, not ideal shots but makable shots. The furthest one was 65 yards on the neighbors land, yet he was bedded exactly where I figured he would be, he just needed to cross a creek, he was the only one out of range but also on wrong property. Now, here is how I improved. First I gave myself plenty of extra time to get into the woods and set the stand. My new rule is I enter the woods and if I want to sit 4 hours, I get there 6 hours before last light etc. This gives me all the time I need to go slow and be quiet, and it allows me to not work up a huge sweat. Two hours is very nice, and if I get set up in 30 minutes I have a 5.5 hour hunt instead of 4, even better. Second I was scouting with the stand on my back most of the time, I had suspicions on where the bucks were bedding (or does during the rut) and I would say to get x amount of yards away, and when I got there I said go 15-30 more yards. I honestly think by doing this I was shaving off those problematic 15 yards that were making 45 yard shots in the past now 20 to 30 yard shots.
I still struggle on the big bucks, I have shot at two bucks over 150" with a bow, I have choked on both of them. I used to choke on 2.5 year olds and could nail 1.5 year olds. I am getting better on those 2.5 year olds and I think in a year or two I will be ready to try my hand on the 3.5 year olds. I see myself getting better as the years go by, and I am seeing better deer, though in all fairness I am hunting a lot better land then I did in the past, but still I see progress in not making the mistakes I used to on other really good land. All of my set ups except one I set up on where I figured I could shoot a big buck, but I took shots at shooter bucks as they came in even if they were not necessarily a true monster. I learned that tip from Dan, set up with the intent to kill the big ones, and then readjust if you feel the need when deer come in, and I think thats why I saw the caliber of bucks I saw this year.
Now does a miss at 20 count as a fumble or an interception?
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Re: The "red zone"...
I struggle with calming my nerves when any deer is within shooting range. My mind just turns to mush it seems like. I had a nice buck broadside at about 50 yards during gun season and I just rushed it and shot right over his back. It was embarrassing, but it also forced me to realize that I need to get out and shoot all my weapons to make sure I am as good as I can be when I am shooting them. I think that is one thing that I have missed since I started spending a lot more time out scouting. Obviously I am putting in that time so I get a chance at a nice buck, but while doing that, I have kind of neglected putting my time in at the range to make sure when the opportunity comes that I make good on it.
It's funny though, I have always been one to wait for the perfect shot. My dad is not one of those people. He takes the first shot that he is offered. Proof is in the results that he has put down many more deer than I have in the years that i have been hunting. Again, not advocating for taking bad shots and he doesn't take bad shots, but I think there is some truth that the shot forcers knock down more deer than the perfect shot waiters.
It's funny though, I have always been one to wait for the perfect shot. My dad is not one of those people. He takes the first shot that he is offered. Proof is in the results that he has put down many more deer than I have in the years that i have been hunting. Again, not advocating for taking bad shots and he doesn't take bad shots, but I think there is some truth that the shot forcers knock down more deer than the perfect shot waiters.
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Re: The "red zone"...
DropTyne wrote:dan wrote:Edcyclopedia wrote:dan wrote:My set ups are usually pretty close to the buck and where he stages every time he uses a certain bedding area... Before the trails split.
What do you reccommend for clumbsy hunters (less stealthy).
Windy days or...?
Try harder... Walk slower...
I think if you have an issue sneaking that last hundred yards its probably due to a lack of confidence, or belief that the buck is really there. I think all of us go at un-natural speeds because of our fast paced work and play life... In the woods everything moves slow. Except people.
One of the hardest skills I ever learned. Just keep reminding yourself you are HUNTING not rushing.
[ Post made via iPad ]
So I must ask even though I have never been close to a mature deer but hope to one day.
How would you go about getting close if you could not walk, like in my case and have to use either a wheelchair of some type of electric scooter to get into the woods? Unfortunately I just cannot be as quit as most people. Would a mature deer or even young deer possibly not be “so worried” about sounds like that compared to footsteps or would any deer be on alert with any abnormal noise?
What about the noise from setting up a blind since I cannot get into a tree? Would you forgo the blind and just stay in the chair or scooter?
Please take these as honest questions since they are. Just looking for what experienced guys would suggest.
Also, I just quoted from DropTyne since his post contained the section for my question (with all the quotes he has in there).
James
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Re: The "red zone"...
I consider myself to be pretty efficient in the red zone.
My worst fail in the red zone was a mechanical issue/brain fart. I had been hunting a huge 8 point that would net 150's. When I finally had my chance at him (broadside at 20 yards), he was moving. I wanted to stop him for the shot with a mouth grunt. I hate doing this because it sometimes cause them to blow out of there. My mistake was that while I was at full draw, I moved my head away from my string/anchor point to grunt at him. He stopped instantly and pegged me. By the time I re-anchored and took the shot, he was already coiling to bolt. I saw my arrow fly an inch over his back. Man was I PO'd at myself.
Remedy: Practice grunt stopping noise while at full draw.
My worst fail in the red zone was a mechanical issue/brain fart. I had been hunting a huge 8 point that would net 150's. When I finally had my chance at him (broadside at 20 yards), he was moving. I wanted to stop him for the shot with a mouth grunt. I hate doing this because it sometimes cause them to blow out of there. My mistake was that while I was at full draw, I moved my head away from my string/anchor point to grunt at him. He stopped instantly and pegged me. By the time I re-anchored and took the shot, he was already coiling to bolt. I saw my arrow fly an inch over his back. Man was I PO'd at myself.
Remedy: Practice grunt stopping noise while at full draw.
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Re: The "red zone"...
I have a decent track record closing the deal in the red zone, even when I was a younger I could keep my cool and get the job done on a older buck. My biggest issue is getting to the red zone, I am starting to figure out this bigwoods public land stuff a little more every year but still a long way from mastering it. My bed hunting has come a long long way in the last 3 years, still lots of work to do but I am confident that my scouting and setups will pay off down the road.
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Re: The "red zone"...
I have had some failures in the red zone. I can't think of anyone that is half honest that hasn't. To be continuously successful in the clutch take a combination of things. Experience helps immensely. Preparedness, honed shooting skills, knowing you can make the shot (confidence), having an open shot (I personally think this is a big cause for failure). Not having a good open shot puts so much pressure on the hunter and can lead to panic failure. No open shot is failure waiting to happen. Able to hit moving animals instead of grunting at them. I have never stopped a buck to kill him. I also agree not being afraid to take a tough shot puts bucks on the wall. Having one pin instead of 7 will up your odds in the red zone. Some will argue, but realistically centering one pin happens much faster than rifting through 7 pins. Over dressed in cold weather can lead to failure in the red zone. Over bowed (especially in cold weather) can lead to failure in the red zone.
You can fool some of the bucks, all of the time, and fool all of the bucks, some of the time, however you certainly can't fool all of the bucks, all of the time.
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Re: The "red zone"...
Its a mix of interceptions and amazing touchdown grabs for me within the 20 yard mark. Seems like I either nail it perfect or miss. However I have Wounded several.
Looking back my problems have been:
1) I cant get calmed down before the shot....still have problems with this
2) Hurry the shot....resulted in a miss
3) Shot Angle
4) Uncertainty....this can really get you. Im referring to several things but mostly unsure if Im going to choose to kill him then decide to shoot very quickly.
5) Brush in the way....happened to me for the first time this year on a big buck. Knew it would happen eventually.
6) Deciding when to draw back my bow....sounds very basic but its been a struggle for me.
I know Im making myself sound like a "bad hunter"......Im just being honest with myself on things to work on.
Great post Dan Im already learning a few things from reading other posts.
Looking back my problems have been:
1) I cant get calmed down before the shot....still have problems with this
2) Hurry the shot....resulted in a miss
3) Shot Angle
4) Uncertainty....this can really get you. Im referring to several things but mostly unsure if Im going to choose to kill him then decide to shoot very quickly.
5) Brush in the way....happened to me for the first time this year on a big buck. Knew it would happen eventually.
6) Deciding when to draw back my bow....sounds very basic but its been a struggle for me.
I know Im making myself sound like a "bad hunter"......Im just being honest with myself on things to work on.
Great post Dan Im already learning a few things from reading other posts.
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Re: The "red zone"...
I picked a bad tree but it was one of two that a climber would get in semi decent, though trimming was required. I trimmed my way up being as quiet as possible.
I think a lot of people end up hunting for trees rather than deer with climbers. A lot of my success in the red zone comes from hunting the exact tree I need to be in rather than the closest straight limbless tree.
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