which came first, the chicken or the egg?

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magicman54494
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which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Unread postby magicman54494 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:51 pm

I wonder, do bucks get old because they have the personality (disposition) of not moving much during the day and being overly cautious or do they get that way because of age?

Each deer has it's own personality. Do the deer with the right personality survive to get old?
How big of a role does personality play?


Brad
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Re: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Unread postby Brad » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:02 pm

Thats a good question and I am sure I don't have the right answer. My belief is the deer that live to a ripe age did it by being elusive their entire life rather than learning it as they go. There is always the argument that the buck will gain knowledge from close calls and become harder to kill, but I am not sure if a deer thinks like that or not. I think a lot more has to do with what the doe taught the deer when she was raising them, if she lived in an area where there was little pressure the buck probably does some foolish stuff time to time. If there is decent hunting pressure in the area, I believe the doe teaches the fawns how to survive and those end up being the super wary bucks because they have never lived any other way.
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Re: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Unread postby bonemonger » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:51 pm

i read a study on this one time, two high fence areas, one no hunting, the other hunted. radio collars on the deer. at age 2 1/2 the bucks were 95 % nocturnal, 3 1/2 98 % nocturnal, 4 1/2 99% nocturnal. it was the same in both locations. it proved that hunting pressure was not the determing factor in their movements. i believe some bucks will move more than others but it is from their individual traits and not from pressure.
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Re: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Unread postby Brad » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:31 pm

bonemonger wrote:i read a study on this one time, two high fence areas, one no hunting, the other hunted. radio collars on the deer. at age 2 1/2 the bucks were 95 % nocturnal, 3 1/2 98 % nocturnal, 4 1/2 99% nocturnal. it was the same in both locations. it proved that hunting pressure was not the determing factor in their movements. i believe some bucks will move more than others but it is from their individual traits and not from pressure.



That is a really interesting study and just shows how hard it is to get on a mature buck during daylight hours, almost frightening really. I guess I better stick with the 2.5 year olds for now, they alone give me plenty of trouble!
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Re: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Unread postby Stanley » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:50 pm

Yes it makes a guy wonder. I think another very big factor is a buck will get lucky. I have taken many bucks over the years that have bird shot, broadheads, shot gun slugs .22 bullets embedded in them. There are no places to hide for some bucks when the orange army invades, they just run until they escape or are killed.
You can fool some of the bucks, all of the time, and fool all of the bucks, some of the time, however you certainly can't fool all of the bucks, all of the time.
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GRFox
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Re: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Unread postby GRFox » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:47 pm

I think that bucks in general are noctournal animals. Racoons are a good example. They are defined as a noctournal animal, however you do from time to time se them during the day, but rarely. You can always count on seing them wake up that last few minutes of light and start making they're way out of they're dens.

I think the same goes for older bucks. when they are younger and immature they might spend more time moving around during the day, but as they mature into the animal they truly are they become noctournal and just like a raccoon come out the last hour of light.

I am by not trying to compare inteligence or elusiveness of the two, but I feel like they are what they are, and that is "primarily" noctournal animals. Couple that with an incredible will to survive and unbelievable instict when it comes to preadators, and you have the animal we consider such a trophy to outsmart.

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spring creek
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Re: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Unread postby spring creek » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:01 pm

I have wondered if it was a learned behavior. I run a trail camera in one area. I have noticed that sometimes, I will get a picture of a nice buck that is traveling with a younger buck or 2. It seems that I end up never seeing the older buck in daylight and all the photos are at night. So, I wonder if the younger bucks are also learning this behavior by following the older buck...well..maybe not learning it but it becoming a habit.
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Re: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Unread postby BackWoodsHunter » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:01 am

I think the big ones bed in caves!

I have no good answer to this question. I think like people, their personalities are likely shaped through experience. I traded for some trail cameras with a guy who hunts in some remote spots on county land just a little ways from me in northern WI. The example pics he showed me off the cameras were all of truly mature deer (for our area) over bait piles in broad daylight. I think the lack of pressure they receive in these spots may make them a little less hesitant. They haven't been taught that being nocturnal is the only way to survive. In SE WI in the CWD units you won't see even small deer moving around much during daylight, not in hunting season anyways.

I think the way the deer responds to experiences dictates how long they make it. Some never learn and get popped young, others learn after a few close calls and hide out during daylight.
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Re: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Unread postby Bucky » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:45 am

From experience... watching bucks... some are more nocturnal than others even at a young age. The funny thing to watch is that bigger/older bucks will be visible to some degree right up until the velvet is shed. Then it is like a light switch was flipped and they rarely show up in daylight... learned behavior??? (velvet shed = close to hunting time in WI = time to stop moving during daylight)
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Re: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Unread postby Schultzy » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:23 am

Good question Todd. I've often wondered about the buck I hunted In 2009 and 2010. Was I just doing everything right In seeing him as many times as I did or was he just a dumb 5.5 year old buck?
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headgear
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Re: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Unread postby headgear » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:53 am

To simplify this a little, deer are like people. There are dumb ones and smart ones, lucky deer and some very unlucky deer, some aggressive and others scared. It all plays a roll in who survies and who doesn't. Oh and a 1000 other variables.
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Re: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Unread postby Autumn Ninja » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:28 pm

Deer are nocturnal by nature and the older they get, the worse it gets.

Heres a little food for thought...

I once had a buck on cam like clock work in day light. Every day he would show up about an hour, hour and a half before dark...all summer long I watched em...I knew I was gonna kill that buck. Then when season rolled around he went nocturnal....but not really :D ....he never changed at all. He still came out the same time he always did, but the days had gotten much shorter and it was getting dark 2-3 hours earlier.
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Re: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Unread postby BigHunt » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:33 pm

BackWoodsHunter wrote:I think the big ones bed in caves!


ahh so thats were they go ...i have a cave on the farm in western Wisconsin.... i will have to take a look :lol:

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BigHunt
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Re: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Unread postby BigHunt » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:34 pm

Autumn Ninja wrote:Deer are nocturnal by nature and the older they get, the worse it gets.

Heres a little food for thought...

I once had a buck on cam like clock work in day light. Every day he would show up about an hour, hour and a half before dark...all summer long I watched em...I knew I was gonna kill that buck. Then when season rolled around he went nocturnal....but not really :D ....he never changed at all. He still came out the same time he always did, but the days had gotten much shorter and it was getting dark 2-3 hours earlier.


good point ninja
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Re: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Unread postby Brad » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:44 pm

looks like sasquatch is living in that cave and he appears to like poweraid! I wouldn't scout that one, I would let him keep that cave all to himself.


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