Topographical terms and descriptions

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Blue Ridge
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Re: Topographical terms and descriptions

Unread postby Blue Ridge » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:21 am

I'm just now discovering this... may or may not be old news to you guys. But - Autumn Ninja aka Josh Driver - has made some appearances on Southern Outdoorsmen podcast - ep. 141, 149 and 174. He describes his thermal hub, high crows foot and social hubs in ep. 141. Specifically @ 42 min and 50min he starts his definitions. Enjoy. And good luck.. haha, I still don't believe I'm too clear on his "high crows foot" definition.


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Re: Topographical terms and descriptions

Unread postby Blue Ridge » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:32 am

Jsautosource wrote:Even without the pictures this thread is super informative and has helped me a lot. I hunt in western KY on public land and I’m really starting to put a lot of time into learning how to read topographical maps better In order to more effectively hunt mature bucks. Also picking up a lot of good info from you guys on here. I would love to see some more maps and examples if any of you all have the time.
I’ve attached a picture below and marked what I believe would be a thermal hub. I could be totally wrong though. Just trying to figure it all out.



I would call that more of a social hub... think center hub of a wheel and the ridges are the spokes going out from the hub. So that spot you marked could possibly be a community spot as deer come off those multiple ridges to the center ridge / hub. I'm not an expert on thermals but depending on how the thermals rise they could rise up through those multiple draws and pass through near the center hub and a buck could easily check each of those tops of draws in a short distance kind of creating a thermal hub. The only issue I see with that though is the thermals could simply rise STRAIGHT UP and not creep up at an angle towards the center hub. So it depends on how the thermals rise. my thoughts.
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Re: Topographical terms and descriptions

Unread postby Trout » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:26 am

I've got one of my cell cams in a high crows foot and only getting pics when thermals are falling. I was thinking these upper crows feet would be the place to be on a rising thermal, so I have been kind of scratching my head why the thermals would pool on an upper crows foot when they are falling? Shouldn't they be pooling down into the valleys on a falling thermal and lower crows feet would be the place to be?
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Re: Topographical terms and descriptions

Unread postby PK_ » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:34 am

Trout wrote:I've got one of my cell cams in a high crows foot and only getting pics when thermals are falling. I was thinking these upper crows feet would be the place to be on a rising thermal, so I have been kind of scratching my head why the thermals would pool on an upper crows foot when they are falling? Shouldn't they be pooling down into the valleys on a falling thermal and lower crows feet would be the place to be?


Think of the draws as streams of water on a dropping thermal. They will pool up in the high crows feet before falling to lower elevations. If you want daytime pics put your cam up at the top of the crows feet not in the center. (If that crows foot has bedding around it).

This is what I see is so many people misunderstand the significance and use of the high crows feet. They think it’s the same as a bowl or a hub or they don’t understand the thermal/wind activity they create. The significance of the high crows foot is that it is a thermal hub/dump/pool for falling thermals AT THE ELEVATION where the bucks naturally wants to bed. Meaning he can bed right in the top of the crows foot or on the sides of it(multiple points for multiple wind directions as well as swirling daytime winds for most directions) and when the thermals drop he gets up, barely loses any elevation and is able to scent check a huge area. From a safety/efficiency standpoint it is a perfect storm and that is why mature bucks relate to them. They are generally untouchable under most conditions.
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Re: Topographical terms and descriptions

Unread postby Trout » Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:04 am

PK_ wrote:
Trout wrote:I've got one of my cell cams in a high crows foot and only getting pics when thermals are falling. I was thinking these upper crows feet would be the place to be on a rising thermal, so I have been kind of scratching my head why the thermals would pool on an upper crows foot when they are falling? Shouldn't they be pooling down into the valleys on a falling thermal and lower crows feet would be the place to be?


Think of the draws as streams of water on a dropping thermal. They will pool up in the high crows feet before falling to lower elevations. If you want daytime pics put your cam up at the top of the crows feet not in the center. (If that crows foot has bedding around it).

This is what I see is so many people misunderstand the significance and use of the high crows feet. They think it’s the same as a bowl or a hub or they don’t understand the thermal/wind activity they create. The significance of the high crows foot is that it is a thermal hub/dump/pool for falling thermals AT THE ELEVATION where the bucks naturally wants to bed. Meaning he can bed right in the top of the crows foot or on the sides of it(multiple points for multiple wind directions as well as swirling daytime winds for most directions) and when the thermals drop he gets up, barely loses any elevation and is able to scent check a huge area. From a safety/efficiency standpoint it is a perfect storm and that is why mature bucks relate to them. They are generally untouchable under most conditions.


Thank you for taking the time to explain that. I want to make sure I understand what's going on...so you have an upper crows foot where multiple ridges converge. During the day, the thermals are rising and pooling in that hub. The thermals in the hub are coming from multiple directions and this causes swirling, kind of churning everything up. As evening approaches, air temps drop, the ground starts to cool and the thermals start falling from the hub into the draws. Just before they drop into the draws, bucks scent check the hub and not only smell the hub, but everything the earlier rising thermal brought up into the hub from the surrounding area. Am I understanding that correctly?

For this particular hub I've been monitoring for a few seasons, I've never seen sign of deer bedding on top of the hub or even in close proximity to the hub. Its not wide open, but I dont think there is enough cover there to make a deer feel secure. I have found buck beds and buck sign on the ridges that run downwind of the prevailing wind direction from the hub where there is more security cover. These are the ridges with the best cover that connect to the hub. I would guesstimate the nearest beds I've found to the hub are about 40' lower in elevation and 75-100yds away. This particular hub is kind of in a sweet spot as its on the inside corner of a 3 year old clear cut. I'm kind of using it as a laboratory to learn more about upper crows feet and how deer in my area use them so I can apply it to other upper hubs in the area. Thanks again for taking the time to help!
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Re: Topographical terms and descriptions

Unread postby Tennhunter3 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:25 am

Awesome thread.

Isn't their 2 types of hubs a crows foot up high.
And a lower hub where points dump into .

I've been calling them hubs I could be wrong .
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Re: Topographical terms and descriptions

Unread postby Trout » Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:45 am

Tennhunter3 wrote:Awesome thread.

Isn't their 2 types of hubs a crows foot up high.
And a lower hub where points dump into .

I've been calling them hubs I could be wrong .


Yeah, thats correct. You wouldn't be the only one who gets them confused.

Here is a lower hub. Black lines are ridges, blue circle is the hub. I run into a lot of scrape activity near these.
Screenshot_20210801-123727_CalTopo.jpg


Here is an upper hub. Black lines are ridges, blue circle is the hub.
Screenshot_20210801-124237_CalTopo.jpg
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Re: Topographical terms and descriptions

Unread postby PK_ » Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:58 am

Trout wrote:
PK_ wrote:
Trout wrote:I've got one of my cell cams in a high crows foot and only getting pics when thermals are falling. I was thinking these upper crows feet would be the place to be on a rising thermal, so I have been kind of scratching my head why the thermals would pool on an upper crows foot when they are falling? Shouldn't they be pooling down into the valleys on a falling thermal and lower crows feet would be the place to be?


Think of the draws as streams of water on a dropping thermal. They will pool up in the high crows feet before falling to lower elevations. If you want daytime pics put your cam up at the top of the crows feet not in the center. (If that crows foot has bedding around it).

This is what I see is so many people misunderstand the significance and use of the high crows feet. They think it’s the same as a bowl or a hub or they don’t understand the thermal/wind activity they create. The significance of the high crows foot is that it is a thermal hub/dump/pool for falling thermals AT THE ELEVATION where the bucks naturally wants to bed. Meaning he can bed right in the top of the crows foot or on the sides of it(multiple points for multiple wind directions as well as swirling daytime winds for most directions) and when the thermals drop he gets up, barely loses any elevation and is able to scent check a huge area. From a safety/efficiency standpoint it is a perfect storm and that is why mature bucks relate to them. They are generally untouchable under most conditions.


Thank you for taking the time to explain that. I want to make sure I understand what's going on...so you have an upper crows foot where multiple ridges converge. During the day, the thermals are rising and pooling in that hub. The thermals in the hub are coming from multiple directions and this causes swirling, kind of churning everything up. As evening approaches, air temps drop, the ground starts to cool and the thermals start falling from the hub into the draws. Just before they drop into the draws, bucks scent check the hub and not only smell the hub, but everything the earlier rising thermal brought up into the hub from the surrounding area. Am I understanding that correctly?

For this particular hub I've been monitoring for a few seasons, I've never seen sign of deer bedding on top of the hub or even in close proximity to the hub. Its not wide open, but I dont think there is enough cover there to make a deer feel secure. I have found buck beds and buck sign on the ridges that run downwind of the prevailing wind direction from the hub where there is more security cover. These are the ridges with the best cover that connect to the hub. I would guesstimate the nearest beds I've found to the hub are about 40' lower in elevation and 75-100yds away. This particular hub is kind of in a sweet spot as its on the inside corner of a 3 year old clear cut. I'm kind of using it as a laboratory to learn more about upper crows feet and how deer in my area use them so I can apply it to other upper hubs in the area. Thanks again for taking the time to help!


No problem. I love talking about this stuff.

No not quite. The daytime thermals do not pool and do not follow topography to the degree that falling thermals do. The only role the daytime (up) thermals play is that they contribute to the daytime mixing of winds from different directions within that hub(assuming it’s leeward). But most of the swirling wind is caused by the daytime wind coming over the ridge and hitting those points/draws that are oriented in different directions.

The situation you describe is very common and much easier to hunt than a buck bedding right in the crows foot. The high crows foot is just being used as a staging area to scent check that cut before they enter it or before they pass by it when the thermals are dropping, similar to a low spot in a field…

I described a spot very similar in one of the podcasts I did except it was not a true crows foot it was just two draws forming a ‘Y’ shape up high. Bucks hit the center of that ‘Y’ to check two doe bedding areas at once. The fact that it was adjacent to buck bedding is what made it lethal.

Imagine how much ground that buck can scent check in that hub with a falling thermal. Now imagine how much ground that buck would have to physically cover in order to ground check and find each individual deer in the same amount of area without those falling thermals all pooling in that spot.

Now you can see how a mature buck will keep tabs on everything going on within his home range with minimal energy expenditure by keying in on these thermal hubs with dropping thermals. I believe the efficiency aspect has as much to do with mature bucks being geared toward nocturnal behavior as safety does in some situations…
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Re: Topographical terms and descriptions

Unread postby PK_ » Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:05 am

Trout wrote:
Tennhunter3 wrote:Awesome thread.

Isn't their 2 types of hubs a crows foot up high.
And a lower hub where points dump into .

I've been calling them hubs I could be wrong .


Yeah, thats correct. You wouldn't be the only one who gets them confused.

Here is a lower hub. Black lines are ridges, blue circle is the hub. I run into a lot of scrape activity near these.
Screenshot_20210801-123727_CalTopo.jpg

Here is an upper hub. Black lines are ridges, blue circle is the hub.
Screenshot_20210801-124237_CalTopo.jpg


That second one is usually referred to as a converging hub. There is really no wind or thermals at play. That is simply a hub of deer movement patterns.

Edit: when I say no wind or thermals I mean that’s not what makes it a hub. But they certainly come into play in how/when/where to hunt it.
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Re: Topographical terms and descriptions

Unread postby PK_ » Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:10 am

Ok this is very rough and not everything is marked it’s just to give an idea. The high crows feet in this map aren’t perfect, these hills aren’t very big so it’s hard but hopefully it is enough to illustrate…

Yellow. Some of the general anticipated daytime buck rut cruising.
Green. Converging hub.
Black. Saddle.
Red. High crows feet and falling thermals.
Blue. Dot is roughly the social hub, lines are falling thermal directions.

Image
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Re: Topographical terms and descriptions

Unread postby Trout » Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:12 am

PK_ wrote:
Trout wrote:
Tennhunter3 wrote:Awesome thread.

Isn't their 2 types of hubs a crows foot up high.
And a lower hub where points dump into .

I've been calling them hubs I could be wrong .


Yeah, thats correct. You wouldn't be the only one who gets them confused.

Here is a lower hub. Black lines are ridges, blue circle is the hub. I run into a lot of scrape activity near these.
Screenshot_20210801-123727_CalTopo.jpg

Here is an upper hub. Black lines are ridges, blue circle is the hub.
Screenshot_20210801-124237_CalTopo.jpg


That second one is usually referred to as a converging hub. There is really no wind or thermals at play. That is simply a hub of deer movement patterns.

Edit: when I say no wind or thermals I mean that’s not what makes it a hub. But they certainly come into play in how/when/where to hunt it.


Ok, now I have all sort of questions :lol:

How does the example I used differ from the example ninja uses below? For both your example and ninjas example, the upper crows foot is at the top. How can a falling thermal pool in the top, in my mind, the falling thermal would flow downhill over down the ridges and into the draws, almost like if you turned a faucet on up there, the water would take the path of least resistance downhill, it wouldn't stay up high unless something was blocking it.

Autumn Ninja wrote:Though the two (convex) hubs are big players in this map, the high crows foot is the key "the thermal HUB".

A bit about the "thermal hub"...After explaning how a high crows foot works (thermals, bedding, connection)....Deerslayer (here on the beast) called me back a couple days later and said...you should call it a "thermal hub"....So he will always get some credit in my eyes.

Anyway...a high crows foot, or "thermal hub" is where the thermals fall...when the wind calms and the air cools down in the evening and the thermals start to fall, thay pool/fall down into these high crows feet. In green>>

Image
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Re: Topographical terms and descriptions

Unread postby Blue Ridge » Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:05 am

Trout - focus on PK’s red dots as the falling thermal pool of the high crows foot. The red lines in the draws are like the crows toes, and the red dot would be the crows “heel” if you will. So there would be a gathering at the red dots before entering the main thermal stream (blue lines) traveling down the mountain.
Ninja didn’t outline the actual crows “toes”; at the center of his green circle would be like PK’s red dots.
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Re: Topographical terms and descriptions

Unread postby Blue Ridge » Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:12 am

The black lines in your second (bottom) pic, the blue lines in ninjas pic and the yellow lines in PK’s are all showing examples of converging hubs on ridge tops, due to travel routes.
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Re: Topographical terms and descriptions

Unread postby Trout » Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:41 am

Blue Ridge wrote:Trout - focus on PK’s red dots as the falling thermal pool of the high crows foot. The red lines in the draws are like the crows toes, and the red dot would be the crows “heel” if you will. So there would be a gathering at the red dots before entering the main thermal stream (blue lines) traveling down the mountain.
Ninja didn’t outline the actual crows “toes”; at the center of his green circle would be like PK’s red dots.


Thank you, I see how I've been misunderstanding upper crows feet now. You learn something new every day. I've been thinking of converging hubs as upper crows feet. Where rising thermals are funneled to from multiple directions- like they were opposite if a lower crows foot.
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Re: Topographical terms and descriptions

Unread postby Tennhunter3 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:05 pm

I always thought upper hubs were for rising thermals where sun hits the forest floor.

Lower hubs are for falling thermals before dark when in the shade or cool temperatures.

I find alot of scrapes on upper hubs but they are only placed their for the falling thermal bucks smelling the very top for does.

Seems pointless to hunt a upper hub at least in my areas.
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