52 Wolves in First Day

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Dewey
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Re: 52 Wolves in First Day

Unread postby Dewey » Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:37 pm

ThePreBanMan wrote:
stash59 wrote:Yeah and I believe everything Joe Biden is saying too. Of course they're gonna say moose were on the decline before wolf introduction. You really think they're gonna cop to something like that. I know guys that hunted moose outside the park in units that bordered it. Moose sightings dropped drastically within 4-5 years after the wolf introductions. But I'm sure that was just a coincedence. The NPS and the USF&W service haven't got any agendas to push. RIGHT!!! They lied at the original meetings held with the locals in the Greater Yellowstone area. And are still lieing to them. That's wrong. And I'm a guy that feels wolves have their place. But why should Wisconsinites have to put up with over 5 times the number of wolves originally agreed upon by everyone. Just to appease a bunch of misinformed easterners. Besides wolves are no where near the extinction level. When you look at them globally.

I know I'm no scientist. But I know what severe erosion looks like. And I never saw it on my visits to Yellowstone.



Okay, now you're accusing scientists of willingly deceiving people. If you're going to make statements like that then you need facts and evidence to back it up. Those same scientists use tools like aerial surveys with FLIR equipment to measure populations... I'm not sure "moose sighting" by hunters rises to the same standard of accuracy when it comes to measurements of a population. They could just be lousy hunters... Or the animals could have moved to land they don't have access to or any other number of factors.

If you've got hard evidence they're lying... Then let's see it... Otherwise, I would suggest sticking to the actual measurable and verifiable facts when making your point. Calling anyone a liar, and offering zero evidence to support the accusation is not a good look man....

I’m still trying to figure out what the Yellowstone ecosystem has to do with a wolf hunt in Wisconsin?

:confusion-confused:

Lets stick to the topic. Unless you have actual firsthand experience in WI with the wolf packs I can’t grasp how you can act like an authority on the subject. Not being sarcastic just being a realist. At some point you have to gracefully bow out of a conversation realizing your in over your head and just listen to the experiences of people who actually live with this stuff every single day of their lives.

I think you should take VilasCo up on his offer and see things firsthand. Nothing better than real world experience to quickly put things in perspective.

The science is there. We need a wolf hunt to manage the numbers.


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Re: 52 Wolves in First Day

Unread postby greenhorndave » Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:26 pm

And speaking of Vilas County, the place and not the dude, that was a great bigwoods deer county. Some people I knew talked about it with near reverence.

Then the wolves came.

Never heard that talk again.
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Re: 52 Wolves in First Day

Unread postby Dewey » Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:32 pm

greenhorndave wrote:And speaking of Vilas County, the place and not the dude, that was a great bigwoods deer county. Some people I knew talked about it with near reverence.

Then the wolves came.

Never heard that talk again.

That’s exactly why I stopped hunting up there after almost 25 years. In the 90’s-early 2000’s it was awesome then quickly went downhill. Not all caused by wolves of course but they were the final nail in the coffin. At some point you just have to call it and move on to greener pastures. Wolves moved into areas in the last 5 years we never saw them before. Deer disappeared about the same time. I quit bowhunting up there about 10 years ago and gun season two years ago.

I love it up there but lately it’s only a fishing destination for me multiple times a year. Now that some wolves have been removed from the landscape I may venture up hunting again. I love the challenge up there when there still was a decent chance. Hope that comes back.
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Re: 52 Wolves in First Day

Unread postby Tim H » Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:29 am

Dewey wrote:
greenhorndave wrote:And speaking of Vilas County, the place and not the dude, that was a great bigwoods deer county. Some people I knew talked about it with near reverence.

Then the wolves came.

Never heard that talk again.

That’s exactly why I stopped hunting up there after almost 25 years. In the 90’s-early 2000’s it was awesome then quickly went downhill. Not all caused by wolves of course but they were the final nail in the coffin. At some point you just have to call it and move on to greener pastures. Wolves moved into areas in the last 5 years we never saw them before. Deer disappeared about the same time. I quit bowhunting up there about 10 years ago and gun season two years ago.

I love it up there but lately it’s only a fishing destination for me multiple times a year. Now that some wolves have been removed from the landscape I may venture up hunting again. I love the challenge up there when there still was a decent chance. Hope that comes back.


I am transitioning from a bigwoods hunter to a lot of other southern WI locations simply because the lack of deer up north. Hunting in Oneida and Lincoln counties for a couple decades and first hand witnessing the deer herd go from decent to scarce, I can testify that the wolf packs have had a significant impact on the deer herds where I hunt. I do think the wolves have their place in nature but must be managed like any other predator we have if we want a fighting chance to get back to a decent deer herd.
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Re: 52 Wolves in First Day

Unread postby stash59 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:44 am

ThePreBanMan wrote:
stash59 wrote:Yeah and I believe everything Joe Biden is saying too. Of course they're gonna say moose were on the decline before wolf introduction. You really think they're gonna cop to something like that. I know guys that hunted moose outside the park in units that bordered it. Moose sightings dropped drastically within 4-5 years after the wolf introductions. But I'm sure that was just a coincedence. The NPS and the USF&W service haven't got any agendas to push. RIGHT!!! They lied at the original meetings held with the locals in the Greater Yellowstone area. And are still lieing to them. That's wrong. And I'm a guy that feels wolves have their place. But why should Wisconsinites have to put up with over 5 times the number of wolves originally agreed upon by everyone. Just to appease a bunch of misinformed easterners. Besides wolves are no where near the extinction level. When you look at them globally.

I know I'm no scientist. But I know what severe erosion looks like. And I never saw it on my visits to Yellowstone.



Okay, now you're accusing scientists of willingly deceiving people. If you're going to make statements like that then you need facts and evidence to back it up. Those same scientists use tools like aerial surveys with FLIR equipment to measure populations... I'm not sure "moose sighting" by hunters rises to the same standard of accuracy when it comes to measurements of a population. They could just be lousy hunters... Or the animals could have moved to land they don't have access to or any other number of factors.

If you've got hard evidence they're lying... Then let's see it... Otherwise, I would suggest sticking to the actual measurable and verifiable facts when making your point. Calling anyone a liar, and offering zero evidence to support the accusation is not a good look man....


Yuup and every scientist and doctor is being totally honest with us about Covid right now. If your FLIR aerial surveys are so accurate for a moose count. Then why can't they give us accurate/actual numbers for wolves. Plus where has all of this money come from to pay for flying time. To totally cover millions of acres land. In extremely rugged terrain. Over several years. To find out the moose slowly declined. And not quickly because of rules. As far as hunters being lousy at finding moose. We're not just talking the few people I knew personally. Who by the way actually filled every tag they had. Prior the rapid decline in moose. It was pretty much every hunter that hunted these areas. Even those not seeking moose. That talked about the rapid decline in moose sightings.

Believing everything science claims. Can be dangerous. Even that video stated how huge of an economic impact. Introducing wolves back into the ecosystem had for Yellowstone. So as always. There in lies the problem. Like always. Money talks. Money causes honest people to become dishonest. How many scientist would be out of a job. If wolves were never reintroduced in areas. Or properly managed at the lands carrying capacity for them!
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Re: 52 Wolves in First Day

Unread postby ThePreBanMan » Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:57 pm

stash59 wrote:
ThePreBanMan wrote:
stash59 wrote:Yeah and I believe everything Joe Biden is saying too. Of course they're gonna say moose were on the decline before wolf introduction. You really think they're gonna cop to something like that. I know guys that hunted moose outside the park in units that bordered it. Moose sightings dropped drastically within 4-5 years after the wolf introductions. But I'm sure that was just a coincedence. The NPS and the USF&W service haven't got any agendas to push. RIGHT!!! They lied at the original meetings held with the locals in the Greater Yellowstone area. And are still lieing to them. That's wrong. And I'm a guy that feels wolves have their place. But why should Wisconsinites have to put up with over 5 times the number of wolves originally agreed upon by everyone. Just to appease a bunch of misinformed easterners. Besides wolves are no where near the extinction level. When you look at them globally.

I know I'm no scientist. But I know what severe erosion looks like. And I never saw it on my visits to Yellowstone.



Okay, now you're accusing scientists of willingly deceiving people. If you're going to make statements like that then you need facts and evidence to back it up. Those same scientists use tools like aerial surveys with FLIR equipment to measure populations... I'm not sure "moose sighting" by hunters rises to the same standard of accuracy when it comes to measurements of a population. They could just be lousy hunters... Or the animals could have moved to land they don't have access to or any other number of factors.

If you've got hard evidence they're lying... Then let's see it... Otherwise, I would suggest sticking to the actual measurable and verifiable facts when making your point. Calling anyone a liar, and offering zero evidence to support the accusation is not a good look man....


Yuup and every scientist and doctor is being totally honest with us about Covid right now. If your FLIR aerial surveys are so accurate for a moose count. Then why can't they give us accurate/actual numbers for wolves. Plus where has all of this money come from to pay for flying time. To totally cover millions of acres land. In extremely rugged terrain. Over several years. To find out the moose slowly declined. And not quickly because of rules. As far as hunters being lousy at finding moose. We're not just talking the few people I knew personally. Who by the way actually filled every tag they had. Prior the rapid decline in moose. It was pretty much every hunter that hunted these areas. Even those not seeking moose. That talked about the rapid decline in moose sightings.

Believing everything science claims. Can be dangerous. Even that video stated how huge of an economic impact. Introducing wolves back into the ecosystem had for Yellowstone. So as always. There in lies the problem. Like always. Money talks. Money causes honest people to become dishonest. How many scientist would be out of a job. If wolves were never reintroduced in areas. Or properly managed at the lands carrying capacity for them!



Each state has unique challenges and custom-matched methods to determines its herd size. Aerial survey is simply 1 tool in the toolbox. If you wanted to know exactly how they do it, that information is public knowledge. You can file a freedom of information act request and get the exact process along with the results from any given year. You can see where they did aerial surveys, where they extrapolated averages based on observation, radio collar, or whatever other methods they employ...

Also, I discussed wolves being reintroduced into Yellowstone having an environmental impact... I never made an argument for an economic impact. Not sure where you're getting that from, but since you mention it, people do travel there to see the wolves...

Your point about the decline in moose continues to miss the mark. As stated and factually supported with data from the national park service provided in a prior post, they were in decline long before the wolves were back and the population has actually been steady since the wolves returned. If anything the data would suggest wolves have helped moose by culling their direct competition for the same food - elk.

As for scientists and COVID, I revert to my prior post.... some people are all too willing to dismiss scientific research when it doesn't fit their political narrative, but they'll be the first in line for its benefits when they get sick, or their wife or children do... Are doctors infallible - no - and it's absurd to hold them to that standard.
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Re: 52 Wolves in First Day

Unread postby ThePreBanMan » Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:09 pm

Dewey wrote:
ThePreBanMan wrote:
stash59 wrote:I’m still trying to figure out what the Yellowstone ecosystem has to do with a wolf hunt in Wisconsin?

:confusion-confused:

Lets stick to the topic. Unless you have actual firsthand experience in WI with the wolf packs I can’t grasp how you can act like an authority on the subject. Not being sarcastic just being a realist. At some point you have to gracefully bow out of a conversation realizing your in over your head and just listen to the experiences of people who actually live with this stuff every single day of their lives.

I think you should take VilasCo up on his offer and see things firsthand. Nothing better than real world experience to quickly put things in perspective.

The science is there. We need a wolf hunt to manage the numbers.


I made the point because wolves aren't the pure evil satanic beast some make them seem. They have a role to play in nature's balance. Yellowstone demonstrates this which is why I brought it up.

Do you have first-hand experience treating or researching COVID? I'm curious because you certainly seem to have some strong opinions on that topic and speak as if you have as much authority as the health care professionals fighting to manage it. Perhaps you should take your own advice and realize that you're over your head and bow out of such conversations. I think what you did right there is called - hypocrisy. I'm not trying to be a jerk either. But I'm entitled to an opinion just as much as you are. Endangered species are a national problem and a national conversation.

I'm not going to fly across the country to go for a walk in the woods. But I will defer to what wildlife biologists have to say on the topic and will trust in the scientific process far more than the observations of the average Joe who let their biases and experiences cloud their judgment.
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Re: 52 Wolves in First Day

Unread postby Dewey » Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:48 pm

ThePreBanMan wrote:
Dewey wrote:
ThePreBanMan wrote:
stash59 wrote:I’m still trying to figure out what the Yellowstone ecosystem has to do with a wolf hunt in Wisconsin?

:confusion-confused:

Lets stick to the topic. Unless you have actual firsthand experience in WI with the wolf packs I can’t grasp how you can act like an authority on the subject. Not being sarcastic just being a realist. At some point you have to gracefully bow out of a conversation realizing your in over your head and just listen to the experiences of people who actually live with this stuff every single day of their lives.

I think you should take VilasCo up on his offer and see things firsthand. Nothing better than real world experience to quickly put things in perspective.

The science is there. We need a wolf hunt to manage the numbers.


I made the point because wolves aren't the pure evil satanic beast some make them seem. They have a role to play in nature's balance. Yellowstone demonstrates this which is why I brought it up.

Do you have first-hand experience treating or researching COVID? I'm curious because you certainly seem to have some strong opinions on that topic and speak as if you have as much authority as the health care professionals fighting to manage it. Perhaps you should take your own advice and realize that you're over your head and bow out of such conversations. I think what you did right there is called - hypocrisy.

I'm not going to fly across the country to go for a walk in the woods. But I will defer to what wildlife biologists have to say on the topic and will trust in the scientific process far more than the observations of the average Joe who let their biases and experiences cloud their judgment.

I have zero problem removing myself from a topic I know nothing about. I do it all the time. One thing I will never do is jump in and claim to be an expert on any subject. I’m far from it and will never pretend to be an authority on anything and then try to tell other people they’re wrong because I know better. That’s just not me.

As far as Covid discussions every single one of us has experience with this in one way or another. Of course we all have strong opinions. We all have lived it every single day of our lives for almost a year now. Call me a hypocrite if you want for speaking up on that topic. If that makes me a bad person so be it. I think we all earned a right to freely speak out on Covid.

When I replied to your original post I stuck to the facts to hopefully educate you as to what reality actually is here in WI. It was pretty obvious you were full of misconceptions and bad information. Understandable since you don’t live here but also frustrating on our end because it seemed like you were making the wolf hunt out to be a bad thing without actually knowing the full story.

Let’s quit clogging this thread up with this back and forth. If you want to discuss personality clashes off the forums by PM I’m more than happy to do that. Otherwise lets just stick to the facts on wolves.
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Re: 52 Wolves in First Day

Unread postby purebowhunting » Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:09 pm

In the area I live the wolf pack per the DNR was a pack of 3, during the 2 day hunt a group with hounds hunters killed 8 and they know there are 6 more remaining. Their survey methods seem flawed in this example. The believe wolves are near extinction is laughable, Canada, Alaska, and Russia have thriving populations along with many states now in the lower 48. When a species recovers in an area and there is a goal number agreed upon to start managing with bullets and that number is reached the process of keeping the population number in check should be celebrated not fought. We see it in Wisconsin in our Elk herd and now Wolf population, wolves are way over population goals and need to be drastically reduced.
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Re: 52 Wolves in First Day

Unread postby Uncle Lou » Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:01 pm

I salute game management. Is there politics involved, of course. Will the wolf be extinct at the end, of course not. Glad to see some reduction in an unchecked apex predator that has severely reduced game numbers. Good job Wisconsin, can't wait for another season in MI.

I had the great pleasure to have a wolf tag for the UP in 2013. Posted my story here. It has been too long, can't wait to get up there again for that before they cross the bridge. God help our fragile and longstanding elk herd if the wolf crosses the bridge in any significant numbers.
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Re: 52 Wolves in First Day

Unread postby john1984 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:15 pm

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Re: 52 Wolves in First Day

Unread postby Dewey » Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:20 pm

john1984 wrote:https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/content/articles/deer-news/more-deer-killed-by-wolves-than-by-hunters-in-2019

Good article John. I especially like the timeline. Really gives perspective to what we have been dealing with for so many years. It’s been an uphill battle no doubt.
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Re: 52 Wolves in First Day

Unread postby Tim H » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:13 am

john1984 wrote:https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/content/articles/deer-news/more-deer-killed-by-wolves-than-by-hunters-in-2019


Thanks for sharing John!
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Re: 52 Wolves in First Day

Unread postby Findian » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:00 am

I find it funny how they estimated the number packs and then say there are four wolves to a pack. That’s the must stupid thing I’ve seen.

I got trail cam and personal observations of 7-12 wolves per pack up where I hunt.

Also the local biologists told me that the potato river pack had like 16 wolves at one time. I also informed her about the new wolf pack that I seen starting up over at another area that was void of wolfs since I started hunting there. The next year I had a trail cam pic of seven wolfs running that area two year later couldn’t find many deer in that area.

At some point we will have to choose between deer meat or wolves and I don't eat wolves so the wolves have to be managed.

I hate when you have people that tell you what’s up and they don’t even go out in the woods. They are the true misinformed people, that don’t rely on wild game to feed a family through the winter. every year I hunt gets harder and
harder to want to kill deer up here.

Every year I think that the deer had an easy winter only to find that the deer are les plentiful.

It has came to the point that buying beef and pork is a cheaper alternative than shooting deer.

Every outdoorsman that hunts up in northern Wisconsin truly understands how bad the deer population is but the dnr says that the deer are doing so good. Then they say that the wolf’s are hardly do anything.
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Re: 52 Wolves in First Day

Unread postby Lockdown » Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:04 am

PreBanMan, I’m not going to dig for the article, but years ago I read about a study the MN DNR did regarding moose mortality. They have a war against white tails in this state and I’ll never understand why. Their claim was that the increasing whitetail population and the brain worm they carry was a significant factor for the declining moose population.

I distinctly remember the #1 factor for moose mortality was wolf predation on calves.

I have a friend who hunts up north and he said he sees more wolf tracks than deer tracks.


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