bait debate

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Re: bait debate

Unread postby PLB » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:36 pm

kenn1320 wrote:
Unfortunately our politicians ignore the law passed by the people of Michigan to manage the heard by "sound scientific management principles" just like our federal government ignores the constitution when inconvenient.


And here is where the loop hole is DS. Our DNR as well as well recognized individuals of deer management all said keep the ban in place. It was the NRC that didn't listen to them and lifted the ban. We all cry foul, that's not what proposal G says(decisions based on science). Then the loop hole is "social science". So while they made us think all decisions would be based on science, it kinda is, but not what we all thought. Baiting is big money in this state, and frankly I think they found out how ineffective they are at telling people they cant do something.

Same in Wisconsin too!


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Re: bait debate

Unread postby DEERSLAYER » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:48 pm

dan wrote:... I know for sure that our DNR here in Wisconsin does not do whats best for the deer or the hunters but really makes biased decisions based on the Governors biased agendas. We are all hoping that changes with Walker in place...

That brings use back to one of the culprits I mentioned.... politics.


dan wrote:... The main problem in Michigan seems to be that hunters can shoot 2 bucks...

I hear this a lot and it makes sense at first, but in reality it makes no difference in the area's there are a lack of mature bucks. You have to remember that we are not your average two buck state. Our second buck must have at least four points on a side. In these area's it's rare to come across someone that gets to fill a second tag because you can't kill what isn't there. Those bucks are shot when they get their first set of antlers.

I have hunted since well before they changed from the one buck limit and I seen no difference in the number of mature bucks being taken when they increased the limit. You could have a hundred buck limit and it would have little impact if all bucks after your first one had to be at least 170". It just depends on how you go about it. However, I did see a HUGE difference as baiting gained in popularity. The more baiting got popular the fewer mature bucks there where. At first a lot of 2.5-3.5 year old bucks were shot over bait along with an occasional older buck, but then the number would drop down dramatically and eventually fizzle out. This happened in area after area. The big rubs and tracks would disappear too.

People baiting in your area can be a huge benifit IF there is a mature buck around though.

There is one other thing though that I seen change with the popularity of baiting that I really don't like and that is tree stand theft. When baiting got popular it sky rocketed!
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Re: bait debate

Unread postby kenn1320 » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:26 am

I hear this a lot and it makes sense at first, but in reality it makes no difference in the area's there are a lack of mature bucks. You have to remember that we are not your average two buck state. Our second buck must have at least four points on a side. In these area's it's rare to come across someone that gets to fill a second tag because you can't kill what isn't there. Those bucks are shot when they get their first set of antlers.


DS, is correct that the stats show very few actually fill both tags. I find those stats hard to believe however, as I could tag out every year on 1.5yr old bucks easily, with the second one meeting the 4pnt restriction. Our 2 tag system is in my opinion the worst thing we could have, given our states moddo (Did you get your buck this year?). Guys shoot the first buck they see (surely a 1.5yr old in most cases) and then they claim they will hunt for that trophy. Well with that mind set, we lost that 1.5yr old, so we have that many less 2.5yr olds next year. Give a guy 2 arrows and tell him to make a 100yd shot to win the prize and his first arrow is out of his bow and on its way to a sure miss. Watch his "last" arrow and he is concentrating intensely, cause he knows he only has "one shot now". I know many of the guys I talk with during the season will take that 1.5yr old buck with their restricted tag, "cause it fulfills the requirements). That way they can still shoot another 1.5yr old, just in case. Yes the poachers will still be prevalent in our state, not much we can do about that unfortunately. However if we could get a majority of law abiding hunters to follow the one buck rule, things could truly change.
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Re: bait debate

Unread postby DEERSLAYER » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:25 am

kenn1320 wrote:
I hear this a lot and it makes sense at first, but in reality it makes no difference in the area's there are a lack of mature bucks. You have to remember that we are not your average two buck state. Our second buck must have at least four points on a side. In these area's it's rare to come across someone that gets to fill a second tag because you can't kill what isn't there. Those bucks are shot when they get their first set of antlers.


DS, is correct that the stats show very few actually fill both tags. I find those stats hard to believe however, as I could tag out every year on 1.5yr old bucks easily, with the second one meeting the 4pnt restriction...

Ken, I was not referring to your area. According to the state record books, people I know and from what I have personally seen your part the state does not have a lack of mature bucks. I do not mean to be disrespectful of your hunting skills (it may just be where you have permission to hunt), but from what I have personally seen your part of the state has A LOT of mature bucks. I had no problem routinely coming across four fingered tracks crossing back roads and people that talked about book bucks they had seen, someone had taken or what they themselves had taken. I was amazed at the night and day difference. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is a big buck behind every tree, but they are there.

I agree about the four point rule in your part of the state. It should be something like a six point to a side rule OR a 15" spread. Meaning if a buck has six points on a side you can shoot him regardless of spread and if a buck has a 15" spread you can shoot him regarless of point count.

Going to a one buck limit will only cost the state money that is greatly needed. There are other way's to address our problems with out losing money and in fact when properly done would increase revenue due to a higher quality deer heard and hunting experience.
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Re: bait debate

Unread postby kenn1320 » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:08 am

What area are you speaking of DS, Howell? Howell is not where I hunt, with exception to my neighbors pine farm of 10 acres. While I have hunted all over the state, my family has been focused on hunting the thumb area. DNR studies reveal that 95% of all bucks are shot yearly in that area. However now that QDM is catching on, that is all changing. One of the largest bucks shot in 2010 came out of the thumb area. It does come down to what property you have to hunt in many cases. Many years I have hunted all season and never seen a shooter on private land. Then I go to Ohio for 4 days and see lots of shooters on public land.

As for the state loosing money, they could charge $30 for the single buck tag. That would still put them below average for our region. Since most do not get that second buck, whats the difference? They are paying $30 for a combo and getting 1 buck anyway. I know, I have heard guys cry they will not hunt if Michigan raises the license fee. Gee last time I took my family of 4 out to dinner, or to the movies it cost me $30 for ONE NIGHTS ENTERTAINMENT. For guys to say $30 is to much to pay for 3 months of access to the outdoors is foolish. Heck a 3 pack of rage broad heads is $40 and people cant justify paying more then $15 for a license? I wont even mention how much many pay to throw bait on the ground.

As for antler rules, we shouldn't need them, but unfortunately we may have to implement them to see big change. Im so glad we have TV and the youth hunt. Our future generations have an entirely different outlook on this. Heck I saw a dead spike last week and showed my kids. I said bummer to my son, that could have been your buck(fingers crossed they remove the min age limit this year). He said yeah, but why would I want to shoot that little buck? He wants a big one he says, and he is 8yrs old. I explained to him that I have been hunting how many years and never got one. I said there is nothing wrong with shooting a buck like that, we all have to start somewhere. I said shoot a few and then you can get picky. My wife was the same way when I took her out. We had a 6pnt walk right by us and I motioned for her to take the shot, but she didn't. I whispered over to her, why didn't you shoot? She said it was a small one. IF it wasnt for TV, neither of them would have a clue whats big or small. Heck they might think I was a big buck hunter if all they knew was the basket racks I have. lol
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Re: bait debate

Unread postby DEERSLAYER » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:46 pm

kenn1320 wrote:What area are you speaking of DS, Howell? Howell is not where I hunt, with exception to my neighbors pine farm of 10 acres. While I have hunted all over the state, my family has been focused on hunting the thumb area. DNR studies reveal that 95% of all bucks are shot yearly in that area. However now that QDM is catching on, that is all changing. One of the largest bucks shot in 2010 came out of the thumb area. It does come down to what property you have to hunt in many cases. Many years I have hunted all season and never seen a shooter on private land. Then I go to Ohio for 4 days and see lots of shooters on public land. ...

I don't know anything about the studies you seen, but the numbers I have seen reported over the past 10-15 years have ranged from 61% to 76% yearling buck kill depending on the specific area down there. I wish they would make it easier to find that information so I could try to find something recent without putting in a ton of time. I know a few people that hunt the thumb and see some very nice bucks. They don't get them very often, but they see them. The Memphis area is about as far East as I have been. When I look at the state record book the thumb has a lot less entries than some of the better counties like Washtenaw and Jackson, but each one still produces as many or more than all five of the counties I hunt combined. I guess that doesn't say much for where I hunt. :lol: Hopefully I can get mobile and start hunting better counties. Right now if I don't have a place to stay I don't hunt there and that needs to change. I need to be mobile yet affordable.

As for Ohio.... ya, it smokes Michigan! Then again, so dose indiana, illinois, Wisconsin, Kentucky and well..... pretty much everybody. :roll:

I plan to hunt Ohio this year. I will be going cold turkey, no prior scouting so I'm not counting on a kill, but I'll give it my best shot. We do have some awesome hunting here, but it seems impossible to get permission.

kenn1320 wrote:...As for the state loosing money, they could charge $30 for the single buck tag. That would still put them below average for our region. Since most do not get that second buck, whats the difference? They are paying $30 for a combo and getting 1 buck anyway. I know, I have heard guys cry they will not hunt if Michigan raises the license fee. Gee last time I took my family of 4 out to dinner, or to the movies it cost me $30 for ONE NIGHTS ENTERTAINMENT. For guys to say $30 is to much to pay for 3 months of access to the outdoors is foolish. Heck a 3 pack of rage broad heads is $40 and people cant justify paying more then $15 for a license? I wont even mention how much many pay to throw bait on the ground...

Just think of the ridicules outcry and political up evil when they try to up the price even $1! Now try to take away a buck tag and more than double the price. I just don't see in happening in Michigan. I completely agree with you about licence costs. I get frustrated about all the complaining of a license costing to much when the DNR wants to raise the price for desperately needed money. Given the states past track record I can understand them not trusting the state to spend it where they say, but to throw a giant fit over a $1? That is just unbelievable. The state is afraid to raise fees even a dollar let alone $16 so I don't think this would be realistic. Even if the chance of a mature buck is very small people really like having that second tag so they can still hunt for that once in a life time buck and as long as we have the proper antler restrictions on that second tag I don't see a reason to change that. Remember that whether we have one tag or our current system that first tag only has a 3" antler restriction on it. There dose need to be adjustments made to the restrictions on the second tag for area's like zone 3.

kenn1320 wrote:...As for antler rules, we shouldn't need them, but unfortunately we may have to implement them to see big change. Im so glad we have TV and the youth hunt. Our future generations have an entirely different outlook on this. Heck I saw a dead spike last week and showed my kids. I said bummer to my son, that could have been your buck(fingers crossed they remove the min age limit this year). He said yeah, but why would I want to shoot that little buck? He wants a big one he says, and he is 8yrs old. I explained to him that I have been hunting how many years and never got one. I said there is nothing wrong with shooting a buck like that, we all have to start somewhere. I said shoot a few and then you can get picky. My wife was the same way when I took her out. We had a 6pnt walk right by us and I motioned for her to take the shot, but she didn't. I whispered over to her, why didn't you shoot? She said it was a small one. IF it wasnt for TV, neither of them would have a clue whats big or small. Heck they might think I was a big buck hunter if all they knew was the basket racks I have. lol

I wish we didn't need AR's but we really do. The DNR promotes voluntary participation, but that hasn't worked and isn't practicle where most people hunt here. That's cool what your son said. If I take a newbie out and they want to pass a yearling I tell them they can't kill what isn't there so go ahead and shoot anything legal (I don't have enough big buck spots so I rarely take newbies to one). I let them know I would prefer they don't shoot a button buck if they can help it, but I assure them that if they do I will be just as happy for them.
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