THP Broadhead Podcasts

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raisins
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby raisins » Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:53 am

mauser06 wrote:I see kinetic energy tossed around a lot when we get into these discussions. That is an important number. But Momentum is where it's at when it comes to arrows.

A 350gr arrow at 320fps gives:
79.57ft/lbs of KE
.497 slugs of momentum


A 750gr arrow at 230fps
88.08ft/lbs of KE
.766 slugs of momentum



Speed plays a big role in kinetic energy. KE= 1/2(mass)x(velocity)^2

Momentum= mass x velocity.


Momentum is essentially an objects ability to carry it's energy.



Example. A baseball going 85mph and a pickup truck going 85mph...

What will be easier to stop? The baseball because the pick-up has more momentum.

Say the baseball is 1 pound....it has:
17 kg·m/s momentum
327 J KE

Pickup at 3500 pounds:
60325 kg·m/s momentum
1146130 J KE


A bow that will shoot a 350 grain arrow at 320 FPS would not even break 200 FPS with a 750 grain arrow if you use the standard assumption of 1 FPS per 3 grains of weight. I see that you are doing a thought experiment, but I'd use more realistic numbers.


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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Ranger Matthews » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:49 am

EllieTheChubb wrote:
Ranger Matthews wrote:I have been shooting a heavy arrow with a single bevel head for the last 6 years. During that time I have recovered several deer that I don’t think I would have recovered with my previous set up. I now pay no attention to the front shoulder blade/leg. Quartering too angles are of little concern because you don’t have to aim behind the leg and risk missing the lungs. The only problem is finding practice targets that the arrows don’t pass through and wreck the fletchings!



Could you elaborate on these recoveries?

Also how heavy is your arrow? Over the 650gr "bone breaking" threshold RF/Ashby describes?


My arrows are around 550 grains. Black Eagle deep impact and the Broad head is a 150 grain Helix with an insert so Its around the equivalent of a 200 grain head. A heavy single bevel head offers two distinct advantages. Quartering too shots and marginal hits. You can never have too much penetration.

I have shot several deer quartering too in situations were if I waited for a better shot angle I would never have gotten a shot. In those situations I have shot completely through shoulder blades and leg bones. On one particular deer I completely broke off the top part of the leg were it goes into the shoulder blade. After years of staying away from that shot angle I almost prefer it. These shoots are 15-20 yards and the arrow is hitting bone and continuing through both lungs. The broad head is completely undamaged and all you do is sharpen up and back in the quiver.

One of my biggest deer I completely messed up the shot and hit it way back from a severe shot angle. That arrow penetrated the hind quarters and exited half the arrow near the deers genitals. One of the most important factors in tracking is a low exit and after a long track with only small amounts of blood I was able to find that deer.

If you always make good shots a mechanical head is probably better. A heavy arrow is an insurance policy for when you screw up. It’s the difference between getting hit with a stick or a lead pipe.
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cspot
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby cspot » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:18 am

Oh the great debate. Lol. My opinion is any sharp Broadhead of quality construction when passed thru both lungs will kill a deer with monotonous regularity. Therefore I look for a combination that shoots accurately. I have always preferred an arrow weight that was somewhat in the middle. I never liked light arrows as you get more noise and vibration.

One thing that seldom gets talked about is shot angle. Seems to be a fad that you have to get nose bleed high anymore to kill a deer (with as few sticks as possible). This can make the kill zone smaller and more difficult to get both lungs.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby hokiehunter373 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:27 am

Ranger Matthews wrote:
EllieTheChubb wrote:
Ranger Matthews wrote:I have been shooting a heavy arrow with a single bevel head for the last 6 years. During that time I have recovered several deer that I don’t think I would have recovered with my previous set up. I now pay no attention to the front shoulder blade/leg. Quartering too angles are of little concern because you don’t have to aim behind the leg and risk missing the lungs. The only problem is finding practice targets that the arrows don’t pass through and wreck the fletchings!



Could you elaborate on these recoveries?

Also how heavy is your arrow? Over the 650gr "bone breaking" threshold RF/Ashby describes?


My arrows are around 550 grains. Black Eagle deep impact and the Broad head is a 150 grain Helix with an insert so Its around the equivalent of a 200 grain head. A heavy single bevel head offers two distinct advantages. Quartering too shots and marginal hits. You can never have too much penetration.

I have shot several deer quartering too in situations were if I waited for a better shot angle I would never have gotten a shot. In those situations I have shot completely through shoulder blades and leg bones. On one particular deer I completely broke off the top part of the leg were it goes into the shoulder blade. After years of staying away from that shot angle I almost prefer it. These shoots are 15-20 yards and the arrow is hitting bone and continuing through both lungs. The broad head is completely undamaged and all you do is sharpen up and back in the quiver.

One of my biggest deer I completely messed up the shot and hit it way back from a severe shot angle. That arrow penetrated the hind quarters and exited half the arrow near the deers genitals. One of the most important factors in tracking is a low exit and after a long track with only small amounts of blood I was able to find that deer.

If you always make good shots a mechanical head is probably better. A heavy arrow is an insurance policy for when you screw up. It’s the difference between getting hit with a stick or a lead pipe.


Sorry if I missed it but what's your draw length and weight
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hokiehunter373
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby hokiehunter373 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:27 am

Ranger Matthews wrote:
EllieTheChubb wrote:
Ranger Matthews wrote:I have been shooting a heavy arrow with a single bevel head for the last 6 years. During that time I have recovered several deer that I don’t think I would have recovered with my previous set up. I now pay no attention to the front shoulder blade/leg. Quartering too angles are of little concern because you don’t have to aim behind the leg and risk missing the lungs. The only problem is finding practice targets that the arrows don’t pass through and wreck the fletchings!



Could you elaborate on these recoveries?

Also how heavy is your arrow? Over the 650gr "bone breaking" threshold RF/Ashby describes?


My arrows are around 550 grains. Black Eagle deep impact and the Broad head is a 150 grain Helix with an insert so Its around the equivalent of a 200 grain head. A heavy single bevel head offers two distinct advantages. Quartering too shots and marginal hits. You can never have too much penetration.

I have shot several deer quartering too in situations were if I waited for a better shot angle I would never have gotten a shot. In those situations I have shot completely through shoulder blades and leg bones. On one particular deer I completely broke off the top part of the leg were it goes into the shoulder blade. After years of staying away from that shot angle I almost prefer it. These shoots are 15-20 yards and the arrow is hitting bone and continuing through both lungs. The broad head is completely undamaged and all you do is sharpen up and back in the quiver.

One of my biggest deer I completely messed up the shot and hit it way back from a severe shot angle. That arrow penetrated the hind quarters and exited half the arrow near the deers genitals. One of the most important factors in tracking is a low exit and after a long track with only small amounts of blood I was able to find that deer.

If you always make good shots a mechanical head is probably better. A heavy arrow is an insurance policy for when you screw up. It’s the difference between getting hit with a stick or a lead pipe.


Sorry if I missed it but what's your draw length and weight
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby EllieTheChubb » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:31 pm

https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/ashby-reports


If anyones interested in some dry reading
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Ranger Matthews » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:34 am

DD79E9FF-3302-4D73-ABA4-CD09462F0C64.jpeg
hokiehunter373 wrote:
Ranger Matthews wrote:
EllieTheChubb wrote:
Ranger Matthews wrote:I have been shooting a heavy arrow with a single bevel head for the last 6 years. During that time I have recovered several deer that I don’t think I would have recovered with my previous set up. I now pay no attention to the front shoulder blade/leg. Quartering too angles are of little concern because you don’t have to aim behind the leg and risk missing the lungs. The only problem is finding practice targets that the arrows don’t pass through and wreck the fletchings!



Could you elaborate on these recoveries?

Also how heavy is your arrow? Over the 650gr "bone breaking" threshold RF/Ashby describes?


My arrows are around 550 grains. Black Eagle deep impact and the Broad head is a 150 grain Helix with an insert so Its around the equivalent of a 200 grain head. A heavy single bevel head offers two distinct advantages. Quartering too shots and marginal hits. You can never have too much penetration.

I have shot several deer quartering too in situations were if I waited for a better shot angle I would never have gotten a shot. In those situations I have shot completely through shoulder blades and leg bones. On one particular deer I completely broke off the top part of the leg were it goes into the shoulder blade. After years of staying away from that shot angle I almost prefer it. These shoots are 15-20 yards and the arrow is hitting bone and continuing through both lungs. The broad head is completely undamaged and all you do is sharpen up and back in the quiver.

One of my biggest deer I completely messed up the shot and hit it way back from a severe shot angle. That arrow penetrated the hind quarters and exited half the arrow near the deers genitals. One of the most important factors in tracking is a low exit and after a long track with only small amounts of blood I was able to find that deer.

If you always make good shots a mechanical head is probably better. A heavy arrow is an insurance policy for when you screw up. It’s the difference between getting hit with a stick or a lead pipe.


Sorry if I missed it but what's your draw length and weight


My draw is 30” 70 lbs. The picture is the front shoulder of a doe my brother shot. He shoots the same arrow and single bevel Helix Broadhead as me at 29” draw 65 lbs. Arrow completely split the front leg bone and penetrated both lungs with a complete pass through.
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cw2gsp
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby cw2gsp » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:24 am

Great discussion guys. I'd rather have this convo than a Sitka vs Kuiu debate.

Couple thoughts. Aaron said this in one of his reply's but its important to call out. Just because your getting pass-thru's with a lighter set up doesn't mean success. Rib deflection is something people dont pay a lot of attention to. You should be breaking a rib on each side without deflection. Hope I'm wording that correctly. Basically you want a true arrow flight straight through the deer. Lighter set ups are more prone to that deflection inside the deer even though they get a pass-thru.

All that said I'm a biiiiig if it aint broke dont fix it guy so if you have a light set up or mechanical s with no problems why switch? Stay confident and keep killing. But if you are having problems its on you to try to correct that.

Aaron I do think there's an elephant in the room when talking about single bevels that I wish more guys would talk about and that's blood trails. I'm not an expert but man I've just never see or heard of a great blood trail with SB. I get it, id rather see them drop with no blood trail than follow a red road for 200 yards but its worth informing people of that disadvantage.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby mauser06 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:58 pm

A big reason I think guys don't get good blood with single bevels is because they aren't sharpened completely. Ranch fairy actually talks about it in one of his videos.

I've started using diamond lapping film to get a truly polished edge. It's easy to get an edge that feels sharp and even shaving sharp. It's another level to get them to a mirror polish. If the edge isn't truly sharp, there's more of a chance it pushes blood vessels and artery's and such out of the way opposed to severing them.


You also have a smaller hole that's harder to get blood out of. Nature of the beast.


Image


That's an exit hole from a 125gr Bishop Scientific Method. Not really impressive. Can't get an exit hole any lower lol.

I tried tracking the blood to find my arrow. I didn't look super hard but definitely wasn't a blood bath. Didn't matter. He trotted 40yds and ran in a circle and fell over. Don't really need a blood trail when that happens.

Like the ranch fairy has said, that buck didn't seem to know what happened despite an arrow going down through his back and blowing out his chest.
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ThePreBanMan
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby ThePreBanMan » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:35 pm

I've listened to a couple of Nock On Podcasts where John Dudley talks down high FOC setups pretty hard. He basically said when he aims at an animal he wants his 30, 40 and 50 yard pins to all be in the vitals so he doesn't have to worry about guessing range. He said his setup was around 13% FOC and he was shooting a lighter arrow with a mechanical (Rage TryPan). He says that helps him kill more animals.. :think: That hitting bone/shoulder represents only about 10% of the animal's mass and he wants a big blade for the other 90%... Especially if he hits too far back... He doesn't care about exit wounds. Although he didn't seem to mention how that 10% he mentioned is covering the vitals we're aiming for.... But I digress.... :? I think it's a little more than 10% as well, but I don't know actual numbers. Not sure the point is important anyway.

Then in a later point of the same conversation, he was talking about how he shot an Antilope (not a tough animal) and how his arrow basically stopped in its tracks when he hit the front quarter. Meanwhile, his guest talked about how he shot a bull moose with an arrow weighing north of 550 grains, clocking in at 20% FOC w/ a single bevel head and it broke the near side scapula, practically cutting it's leg off, traveled through the chest cavity/vitals, and broke the opposing side shoulder...

Yet - at the end of the conversation, he was still talking down heavy arrows and high FoC. The podcast ended and I had one thought... John - you may be one of the world's best target archers... but this ain't target practice we're talking about here...
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby mauser06 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:33 pm

Couldn't imagine NOT caring about an exit hole with an arrow. A bullet, dumping ALL it's energy inside of an animal can be a good thing. Broadheads kill by cutting. Not by trauma like a bullet. For an arrow to cut, it must penetrate.

It's crazy how many of the "TV bowhunters" arrows fail to penetrate a little ole deer.

I agree, John can certainly shoot and has some good videos on shooting.


I'm actually surprised target archers haven't gotten after higher FOC yet.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Trout » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:51 pm

Yeah, sharpness is huge with any broadhead. That's one of the nice things about modern replaceable blade heads- with the technology that's out there now, maybe a tenth of a percent of average Joe's can get a resharpenable broadhead back to factory sharp. Sharpening knives and broadheads has to be one of the most overlooked and underrated skills in the woods. I've got huge respect for anyone who has mastered it.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Twenty Up » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:58 pm

Heavy, high foc arrows penetrate very well, but fixed two blades will never leave a good blood trail. Animal hide moves dynamically, fur helps blood coagulate even further..

Pictured is a 1 1/4” Slick Trick Grizz 2 hole through a does brisket

D22C283D-617E-4317-838C-93AF49006775.png

18A53B9F-C4C2-45A0-AC89-03F40E2EE364.png

668A4F09-0D64-448D-B0CA-FA35891A6B8D.png
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