THP Broadhead Podcasts

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crankn101
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby crankn101 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:30 am

You see people shooting way high or way low all of the time and a lot of the times they are the same ones preaching to shoot heavy arrows. Its just kind of ironic to me.

FYI I have been shooting 500ish grain arrows for 10 seasons now.


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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby PredatoronthePrairie » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:05 am

Learned my lesson 3 years ago.
About cost me a nice mulie.

Will never be going back to mechanicals.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby crankn101 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:17 am

For the mechanical haters do what you want, but you should check out the thread on ArcheryTalk in the western section. Some of the best elk KILLERS on there are switching to Rage Trypans with great results, even light poundage set ups going through elk shoulders.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby The_Real_Jmill » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:23 am

A lot of varying factors. Heavy arrow and higher FOC lead to increased penetration on bone, while mechanicals shine with increased wound channels and hemorrhaging.

Depends on the desired game animal, I've used a 500gr. or so arrow with mechanicals for whitetail for 10 years and have never had an issue with penetration or expansion of the broadhead itself (except for shoulder shots). With that said the mechanicals have aided in the success rates of finding marginally hit deer in the paunch in comparison to those I've lost on a shoulder shot.

The heavy/fixed camp likes to bash but there is a study in Maryland focusing on the recover rates between fixed and mechanical broadheads and the mechanicals actually came out on top in that study.

Each is effective as long as the equipment is properly setup and a good shot is made.


Link to the broadhead study

http://www.seafwa.org/26Pedersen_et_al_163-166.pdf
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Twenty Up
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Twenty Up » Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:44 am

The_Real_Jmill wrote:A lot of varying factors. Heavy arrow and higher FOC lead to increased penetration on bone, while mechanicals shine with increased wound channels and hemorrhaging.

Depends on the desired game animal, I've used a 500gr. or so arrow with mechanicals for whitetail for 10 years and have never had an issue with penetration or expansion of the broadhead itself (except for shoulder shots). With that said the mechanicals have aided in the success rates of finding marginally hit deer in the paunch in comparison to those I've lost on a shoulder shot.

The heavy/fixed camp likes to bash but there is a study in Maryland focusing on the recover rates between fixed and mechanical broadheads and the mechanicals actually came out on top in that study.

Each is effective as long as the equipment is properly setup and a good shot is made.


Link to the broadhead study

http://www.seafwa.org/26Pedersen_et_al_163-166.pdf


Amen.

That broadhead study switched me back to Grim Reapers. I think today’s modern mechanicals will increase the success rates even more.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby mauser06 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:56 am

Austin, why wouldn't you expect basically a field point to penetrate well? It doesn't have blades causing resistance. As you saw, shearing off blades is ideal opposed to them turning into a bent up twisted dull mangled mess that happens a lot too. That's when penetration is curbed. In your situation, you had basically no resistance. Your blades sheared off leaving you a metal pointed arrow. That's gunna penetrate like crazy. But it'll make a little hole.


A broadhead that snaps on a rib is absolutely laughable and has no place in the woods IMO. Definitely not going in my quiver.


I'm glad it worked out for you and you were able to make the recovery!

Had the shot not been through the chest, I'd imagine a field point sized hole in the liver or guts would have made for a real challenge.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby raisins » Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:15 pm

There is a trade off, but for me the faster arrow wins the trade off when hunting whitetails. Also, I find a fast arrow just more fun to shoot.

If you shoot a well tuned, powerful bow with 60 lbs or more draw weight and a 28" or longer draw length, then light arrows with the right broadhead will blow through a whitetail about every time unless you hit spine, humerus, or the spine/socket of the shoulder blade.

I shoot a 338 fps IBO bow with 63 lbs draw weight (60 lbs limbs bottomed out) and a 29.5" draw length with a 375 grain arrow with a 1 3/8" expandable Grim Reaper broadhead. With my setup, I get around 300 fps.

A well tuned bow with a 375 grain arrow will out penetrate a much heavier arrow that is fishtailing.

In the past 4 years with that particular bow, I've killed 8 deer with it and never had an arrow consider staying in the animal and have recovered every animal within 100 yards.

The arrow blows through so fast that I've considered going to lighted nocks so I can more easily see where I've hit the thing.

The bow is not loud and I've experimented with a 500 grain arrow and had friends and family listen for differences, and no one can detect one (I switch the order of arrows and ask them to pick loudest while standing to the side).

So, I just don't get the current trend of much heavier arrows, with high FOC, and single bevel broadheads when shooting whitetails. Elk, sure.

With a 300 fps arrow, I can set my moveable pin to 25 yards and hit within a few inches from 0 to 30 yards. That is a huge advantage. If I am set up where my farthest shot is 30 yards (even in WV this is common), then I can put away the range finder and hardly even consider distance.

A larger broadhead with more blades is more likely to help on most bad hits because most bad hits are to the liver, stomach, or intestines and based upon the following logic. The eventually lethal but soft areas of a deer (liver/guts) are much larger in area than the humerus, spine, and hard parts of the scapula. Also, if a deer is walking at all, then the arrow is going to hit back towards liver/guts unless the deer has a reverse gear. This matches talking with others and watching videos. Hardly ever is a tracking job needed because they hit the humerus square. I've made bad hits on several deer when younger and 3 were gut shot and 1 was a hard duck that put the arrow into the neck above the spine.

The only reason I would go to a heavy arrow with single bevel is if I wanted to try shooting through the shoulder/leg bone of hard quartering towards deer (which I consider a bad shot regardless of set up) or if my set up (recurve/longbow or light poundage or short draw) did not generate a lot of energy. When I hunted with a 50 lbs recurve, I used a 2 blade Magnus Stinger and a 500 grain carbon arrow because a 50 lbs recurve is very anemic in comparison to most compound set ups.

I actually think that the heavy arrow, single bevel trend might lead to more bad hits. I heard a pretty famous youtube hunter say "with this heavy arrow and single bevel, I can put the pin where it needs to be and not worry about shooting around bone". That's a really bad idea. If he squarely hits the head of the humerus, he doesn't have a great chance of penetrating it. And his set up will give him false confidence to not wait for a better shot.
Last edited by raisins on Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby ThePreBanMan » Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:30 pm

That study isn't scientific and is fundamentally flawed IMHO. It doesn't eliminate any variables in the "testing". It's really not even a test as much as it is some compiled statistics. It's not an apples to apples comparison. What were the draw lengths of the fixed blade shooters vs mechanical? Arrow weights? What about FOC? Average shot distance? What were the draw weights? Who had modern equipment vs early 1990s compounds, etc. The number of hunters in each pool was also drastically different and that directly impacts averages. They only sampled 26 mechanical shooters against 119 fixed blade shooters? The differences in previously stated variables would cause huge swings in the result averages with such a small sample pool. There's one thing that is always true when statistics are involved... Garbage in = garbage out.

The authoritative study on the topic - IMHO - is Dr. Ashby's study. That is apples to apples. Specifically, that study (an actual scientific study with actual testing, not just compiled statistics) shows, irrefutably, that when all things are equal (arrow weight, draw weight, draw length, FOC, fletching, distance to target, bow/equipment, etc) that fixed blade broadheads and specifically single bevel heads, penetrate better, maintain their integrity better and punch through bone better. In fact there was not a category in which a mechanical outperformed a 2 blade single bevel head on actual game animals. Sure the mechanical cuts WIDER but the fixed blade cuts DEEPER. Now measure the surface area of the wound channel produced by each and guess what, the single bevel fixed head cut more tissue.

The study also found that arrows with high FoC outperformed arrows of the same weight with lower FoC. But that there were diminishing returns with FoC above 19% (the sweet spot). It also found that heavy arrows outperform lighter arrows on game. The best performing combo on game was a heavy arrow with FoC at 19% with a single bevel fixed blade head.

I'm not trying to demonize anyone who chooses a mechanical based on it... Hey - use what you like. But make sure you call the ball with eyes wide open... Mechanicals are a pro shop's best friend. They can just eyeball the "tune" with a bow square, sell the dude some mechanicals with it so his BHs hit with FPs and ship it. Saves them a ton of time. Getting FBBHs to impact with FPs requires a lot of time/work to properly tune. Time is money... That's why pro shops are so quick to sling mechanicals at folks.

My opinion is worth what you paid to read it, but there it is...
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Ahawk116 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:05 pm

My 10 cents is take a look at the tendencies you have when shooting at an animal, and build an arrow accordingly. That does requires shooting some deer, but you’ll see a trend.
If you tend to hit deer back, build an arrow that shoots laser beams and puts a gigantic hole in a deer. If you tend to hit forward build a heavy arrow.

I tend to hit deer in the shoulder. Specifically when setting up on buck beds I seems to always get quartering to me shots...I shoot a 600 grain arrow with an 80lb speed bow and just blow them to pieces as a result of that. It works, I shot one this year on the ground shattering its leg bone, passed through the full length of the deer exiting out the opposite hip.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Ahawk116 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:13 pm

A couple of photos from this season from a couple of different deer.
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ThePreBanMan
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby ThePreBanMan » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:42 pm

Bonus too: They ain't running anywhere if you blow up that shoulder!!
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Huntoholic » Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:07 pm

If any of you are interested here is the link to the Ashby Foundation that show’s why single bevels are superior to all all other broadheads. I challenge you to also read all the links and updates. https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/ashby-reports
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Wannabelikedan » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:01 pm

My arrow setups are Ashby street legal. I only throw sub 650 gr arrows in my quiver to test on pigs. Pigs are much more durable than deer. If it works on them a deer is no issue. With an efficient setup, new shot angles open up and less worrying about penetration performance becomes the norm. Bow hunting was LEGALIZED in Africa and Russia based off of the Ashby studies. His studies didn’t favor light, fast, and mech’s either.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Trout » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:55 pm

Inside 30yds, arrow drop between a heavy arrow and light arrow is really marginal.

I started out bowhunting in the late 90s with magus coc two blades and an old mid 90s bear whitetail 2 wheel bow and blew through every deer i shot.

I switched to a reflex deflex longbow for about 5 years and bear razorheads and blew through every deer I shot.

I switched to rages with a 29-60 bow and a 475gr'ish arrow about 7 or 8 years ago. Blew through every deer I shot with that setup except one. Saw some funny stuff happen, one arrow hit bone and turned almost 90 degrees on the way through. The one deer I didnt get a pass through on was a 35yd quartering away heart shot that busted the opposite shoulder out of socket but didnt go through it.

Two years ago I decided I was gonna start hunting elk and switched my whitetail setup to my new elk setup so I could dial it in on deer and build confidence before going out west. That's a 29-70 bow with a 475gr'ish arrow and about 16% foc. First I tried tooth of the arrow heads and shot one deer with them. Didnt like what I saw- they weren't sharp enough and penetration suffered, had a deer look back as I shot and the arrow blew through the neck taking out the jugular and then into the chest cavity taking out a lung. I thought it still should have blew through- so I switched to slick trick standards and have blown through three deer so far with them. I really like them a lot, but am probably going to switch to QAD exodus this year.

Reason being what I saw from a buddy using them. He is shooting lighter arrows a little over 400gr, has a 27" draw and is at 60lbs with an old slow shooting compound bow from the early 2000s. He is getting pass through shots but the one that impressed me was a 25yd very steep angle quartering away heart shot that went in through the hind quarter, through the guts, through the heart and out through the sternum. The broadhead came through about 6" but the arrow stayed in the deer. Pic below.

My point to all of this is in my experience your setup is out of whack and/or your shot has to be really off for the arrow to not pass through a whitetail. No harm in optimizing your setup but let's not pretend you need a bazooka to to shoot through notebook paper. Modern compounds have plenty of power for what we are trying to do so there are a lot of ways to do it because we are overgunned.

20191109_102643.jpg
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby bigredneck61088 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:54 am

Love the THP guys and their information, Here is my take on arrow theories and I subscribe to both...

My 47lb recurve is pushing a 600 grain high FOC single bevel arrow, pass thrus on big does

My 65lb compound is shooting a 420 grain arrow with a 2 inch expandable, several pass thrus on mature bucks except one and he died too

Both have been proven to work, and I like both concepts equally! Ashby has a good track record as well as other guys like Tim Gillingham and mechanicals. As long as you aren’t crazy one extreme light or a 2x4 it will work, different strokes for different folks. Bottom line is put the arrow where you need to, And are reasonable in your setup, it will work.

I think alot guys that get caught up in being too technical with gear sometimes cause it’s more fun to tinker but they should probably just shoot their bows more


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