How long do you wait?

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Zap
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Re: How long do you wait?

Unread postby Zap » Fri May 28, 2010 8:51 am

Sam Ubl wrote:ZAP, HOW DID YOU ADJUST YOUR FONT TO BE SIZE 72? Wish your posts didn't take a whole page to spit out a couple sentences, but on a brighter note, I do enjoy reading what you have to say - so don't be offended, I'm not even sure if the font shows up that big on anyone elses PC's??

That said, how long do I wait? I shoot when the timing is right... Guess I don't follow. If the shot presents itself, I take it. If it's a matter of 'how far' till it's reasonable, well, then I wait till' it's in range.



Its adjusted in size for the "other" old folks. :D

I find it alot easier to read.

Its size 150, 72 is for lightweights. :lol:

marty
Last edited by Zap on Fri May 28, 2010 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: How long do you wait?

Unread postby dan » Fri May 28, 2010 9:12 am

UPbowhunter wrote:I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud here, I'm really trying to understand this, so no gut shots, no liver shots, proceed like this, but if it's shot any where else proceed fast, and push. Most other hits deer would be down and dead by the time you got down from tree with the exception of a one lung, or high low hits, so I guess this is making some sense. If your arrow smells and has matter on it, give time. If your arrow has dark blood give time, good lung blood proceed now, and anything else proceed now. Throw in a little common sense and reveiw your minds eye of how the shot went down a few times and I guess how this may be helpful Dan. My thing is there is hundreds of thousands of deer tracked with the rules we have be going by for years, every year why change. But if there is a few more deer found than not by the old rules its worth trying to look at better ways.

You pretty much nailed it now... Liver I wait 6 hours. Guts I wait at least 12 hours. Anytime I am unsure of guts, I would suggest treating it as guts and backing off. An experianced hunter should be able to determine guts or liver by blood, hair, smell, or particles on arrow or in blood. Guts, liver, and intestine hits are different than other hits because usually they don't bleed to death, rather they die from the toxins that are released into there body / bloodstream. This takes time. I believe its a painful death by observations of deer hit in these locations. They hunch up, often hold there tail down instead of in flag position, and run only a short distance before walking slowly to someplace close and lying down.
Flesh wounds will clot and start to heal if the deer lies down. I push flesh hits. One lung hits are one of the best hits to really push. These deer will clot up and live for a couple days, sometimes longer, and in some cases survive the hit all together. But if pushed the increased respiration's, heart rate, adrenalin, and blood flow will make it very hard for him to breath with one lung and blood clumps will come up thru his throat and nose choking him. Most of the one lungers I go after right away are found still alive but drained of energy. I have finished a few of them off with a knife to end the suffering.

My thing is there is hundreds of thousands of deer tracked with the rules we have be going by for years, every year why change. But if there is a few more deer found than not by the old rules its worth trying to look at better ways.

Not really sure of the exact origin of the concept of waiting 30 minutes, or an hour, but according to my Dad and a few other old timers, it was not so much for the deer to expire, but out of respect for the animal they let it die in peace. Really, from a medical standpoint, I can't see any reason to wait 30 minutes, or an hour unless your hoping not to recover the deer. If its a fatal hit to both lungs or the heart it should only take a couple minutes tops to expire, in the rare cases as some have pointed out where the lungs don't collapse and the deer is able to some how breath, letting it sit would let it survive even longer, or live as in the case of the elk someone mentioned that was found to have an arrow thru both lungs when field dressed. Though that might be a 1 in 100,000 case, still, I would have to say pushing those animals and making them breath hard, making the heart pump blood hard, and adding the natural blood thinner "adrenalin" into the blood stream would make them expire faster.
I have recovered two deer from lower front leg hits by pushing them till they ran out of blood. Both those deer, I believe would of survived if a guy waited before tracking. I got a 3rd leg hit deer that I tracked two days but let go over night and got him by tiring him out till he just decided he wasn't running no more... I could go on...
if hes not dead and you bump him, them Ill give it some time.


Not me... If its anything outside of guts, liver, or intestines, I would stay with the track and stress the animal.
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Re: How long do you wait?

Unread postby dan » Fri May 28, 2010 9:19 am

AC Rider wrote:
I would think it would be more likely with a sharp broadhead than a dull one? A clean razor slice would clot back together a lot faster than a ripped hole...

Nope, not true!
Also, a sharp edge will cut while a dull head will pass through without cutting a small portion of material the blade comes in contact with resulting in less damage.


Greg,
Im going to give you this one... After reading what you said about the amount of material the blades are cutting ( dull vs sharp ) I really don't think I was comparing apples to apples... I was assuming two equal size holes like I would see responding to an injury. I think your right, the ripped hole is going to be smaller, thus bleed less... Kind of a null subject though, cause I don't think anyone would purposely shoot live animals with dull blades.. I got a couple quarters that went bad on me. If I get a chance maybe I will thaw them, and shoot a sharp vs a dull head thru them and compare damage.
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Re: How long do you wait?

Unread postby NatureBoy » Sat May 29, 2010 1:02 am

Zap wrote:Its adjusted in size for the "other" old folks. :D
I find it alot easier to read.Its size 150, 72 is for lightweights. :lol:
marty


You know Zap, there is an easy way to adjust the font size of your browser to make reading easier for yourself. If you are using a Windows OS, just hit the "CTRL" and "+" keys at the same time. That will increase font size. To decrease it, just hit the "CTRL" and "-" keys. That will help you read other people's posts with more ease since you're the guy posting the large font. ;) (Unless of course you just like reading your own posts :lol: )
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Re: How long do you wait?

Unread postby Zap » Sat May 29, 2010 1:09 am

NatureBoy wrote:
Zap wrote:Its adjusted in size for the "other" old folks. :D
I find it alot easier to read.Its size 150, 72 is for lightweights. :lol:
marty


You know Zap, there is an easy way to adjust the font size of your browser to make reading easier for yourself. If you are using a Windows OS, just hit the "CTRL" and "+" keys at the same time. That will increase font size. To decrease it, just hit the "CTRL" and "-" keys. That will help you read other people's posts with more ease since you're the guy posting the large font. ;) (Unless of course you just like reading your own posts :lol: )



Sweet. :D

I appreciate that info.

I am liking this, :) .
Helps alot, thanks again.

marty
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Re: How long do you wait?

Unread postby NatureBoy » Sat May 29, 2010 1:29 am

Your welcome, glad to help.
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Re: How long do you wait?

Unread postby AC Rider » Sat May 29, 2010 3:44 am

dan wrote:
AC Rider wrote:
I would think it would be more likely with a sharp broadhead than a dull one? A clean razor slice would clot back together a lot faster than a ripped hole...

Nope, not true!
Also, a sharp edge will cut while a dull head will pass through without cutting a small portion of material the blade comes in contact with resulting in less damage.


Greg,
Im going to give you this one... After reading what you said about the amount of material the blades are cutting ( dull vs sharp ) I really don't think I was comparing apples to apples... I was assuming two equal size holes like I would see responding to an injury. I think your right, the ripped hole is going to be smaller, thus bleed less... Kind of a null subject though, cause I don't think anyone would purposely shoot live animals with dull blades.. I got a couple quarters that went bad on me. If I get a chance maybe I will thaw them, and shoot a sharp vs a dull head thru them and compare damage.

Sweet :D
As far as same sized holes, one ripped and one clean cut, I don't know but I still think a clean incision is better. I think there's alot of folks out there that use the same blades year after year as long as they don't shoot that broadhead. These blades dull do to things like humidity and rattleing around in quivers.
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Re: How long do you wait?

Unread postby martin peters » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:33 am

Just a note...Barry Wensel said he liked to file a rougher edge on his Zewicky broadheads. He stated he thought they grabbed and tore blood vessels as they passed through. To each his own.
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Re: How long do you wait?

Unread postby lungbuster » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:50 am

A clean cut will not clot as easily as a jagged one. Also dull blades will tend to roll arteries and viens rather than cut them.
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Re: How long do you wait?

Unread postby mike_mc » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:14 am

Just wanted to bump this thread.
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Re: How long do you wait?

Unread postby James » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:16 am

The guys that hunt with me will probably poke some fun at me. I am the king of waiting a long time, even when I see them go down. This year for instance I dropped my firearm buck at 21 yards in front of me with a .30-06. He layed there and I racked in a shell and stood vigilantly in the event I needed a followup shot. I believe in playing it safe. I can't handle jumping wounded deer. Just an avoidable mistake.

As long as it is cold out I have no problem waiting plenty of time.
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Re: How long do you wait?

Unread postby Stump » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:04 am

Dan,

I hope you do an in depth tracking segment on your next video! I definitely know that I could used some pointers. Being partially color blind doesn't help me one dang bit! :roll:
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Re: How long do you wait?

Unread postby Schultzy » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:38 am

This year I was on 2 double lung hit deer that lived longer then they were suppose to. Damn deer are breaking the rules again. ;) The 1st deer was a huge doe my sister In law got. This old girl went 300+ yards and left a HUGE blood trail. She must have stopped at least 7 times leaking out blood everywhere. Never did she bed down until her final resting place. I'd bet some pretty good cash her doe lived for at least a half hour.

The other doe was shot from a good friend of mine. This doe too was double lunged. She went I'd say 200 yards. There was a dusting of snow on the ground and there wasn't much for blood until the last 60 yards. She too stopped many times and for sure had to live longer then they usually do. I was starting to think he missed his spot. Just then the blood trail opened up everywhere and there she laid 60 yards down the trail. Beautiful shot.
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Re: How long do you wait?

Unread postby bigwoodsmn » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:54 pm

If you are gun hunting and the animal is not down, shoot again. If he goes out of sight, track right away and make your first attempt your very best attempt. If you bump him again your odds of recover decrease fast. Especially if there is no snow.

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Re: How long do you wait?

Unread postby JoeRE » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:52 am

Lots of really interesting food for thought in this thread. I have tracked a lot of wounded deer and would like to think I have learned a lot about it by trial and error. I tend to agree with what Dan said about pushing deer sometimes. I think the key is to differentiate between two very different types of hits in a way that most people don't think about. Deer hit through the heart, center lung shot, MAJOR arteries and veins, liver, kidneys, spleen, AND stomach and intestines are going to die relatively "soon" even if that means 10 hours later for an intestine hit deer. They are not going very far so there is no point in pushing them. If the deer was hit anywhere that probably won't result in a natural death in a matter of hours, you only have one realistic way of recovering that animal...run it to the ground. Movement makes more blood loss, no doubt about it. Granted you have no way of knowing, pre-recovery, if you made some of those hits I named so yes it does get a bit fuzzier.

Razor sharp blades are the only way to go. They penetrate better, cut a larger hole, and the resulting wound definitely clots slower. Yes, there is a reason surgeons use razor sharp blades, the wound will heal faster and cleaner, but for the time immediately after the wound is made they defiantly bleed more! There is a lot of science behind that, but I am not a medical professional so I would leave the detailed explanation to someone who is.

The last thing I think everyone should remember is that any double lung shot deer is not just a double lung shot deer. Stick an arrow through both the lungs anywhere in the center and the deer isn't going to live more than a couple minutes max. If you just clip the lungs, maybe just slicing a lobe on each with a blade, and you have a whole different type of hit. Two deer off the top of my head I know were hit like this:

Deer A was a small yearling doe hit by my brother low through the shoulders. He shot her and she ran out of sight. We returned to the site and started trailing her, followed the trail about 400 yards and then quit for the night. Blood trail was light, but the pink bubbly blood did indicate lung hit. We returned the next morning, couldn't keep the blood trail going, and we found her after I went another 400 yards to an area I figured a wounded deer would hole up. She was hit through the front lobes (don't know the technical name for them, like I said not in the medical field!) of both lungs - more than just a nick. She never bedded until the bed we found her in, probably because the shaft was broken off in her. Not sure how long she she was on her feet but it was at least half an hour and probably closer to an hour based on how she traveled as I was tracking her. I do not know how long she was bedded before expiring after that but it wasn't too long, she had clearly died the night before. 800 yards is about half a mile, crazy stuff!

This is an extreme example but not the only deer I have witnessed travel quite a ways hit through the front lobes of the lungs. They still die though, it just takes longer than 2 minutes sometimes.

Deer B was a buck I shot this year. I had a 3" wide opening right on the back edge of his lungs at close range and I put my arrow through it, about 6" behind the shoulder perfectly broadside. Deer ran 70 yards and stopped. He slowly walked from sight and coughed a couple times, I saw him on his feet for about 20 minutes. I recovered the deer the next morning another 100 yards from there. Hit punched through the rear lobe of one lung, put a 4" long, 1/2" deep gash in the liver, and put about a 3/4" deep slice in the rear lobe of the other lung (steep angled down shot), complete pass thru. I bet he lived at least half an hour but only made it 170 yards. In this situation there was no point in pushing him, I knew he wasn't running scared and was going to die soon regardless.

Whats my point? Never say always or never in regard to trailing wounded deer, just like everything else in hunting!


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