Activated carbon fraud

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Re: Activated carbon fraud

Unread postby ontario farmer » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:56 pm

dan wrote:
ontario farmer wrote:I am sure John has been winded despite his claims to the contrary. He may not have known it.

So if the amount of scent does not matter. Why play the wind.

Even the military believes in carbon suits. Why??? Seems like those coveralls could not hurt at that price.

WHY PLAY THE WIND? Cause if your wind stream don't hit him, he don't smell you. If he gets your wind stream even for a second, he knows your there. a little or a lot don't matter from my observations, and based on all testing. None, well yea, that makes a difference. Thats why I play the wind.


18 deer crossed my entrance trail. / of those 16 showed no reaction, 1 spooked, and one more sniffed then went about its business.

I guess this comment was what I was referring to. I know you think scent is important. I guess not our scent trail. Our scent trail from walking in is irrelevant.
We all agree the deer use their nose. The nose is more important than sound and certainly sight. Movement is more important to a deer than sight.


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Re: Activated carbon fraud

Unread postby ontario farmer » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:03 pm

I guess this is going no where. I will agree to disagree agreeably. I love watching your video's Dan, I respect your hunting abilities but I think I will give up on this thread and hopefully we all learned something from the discussion.
I know you are a better hunter than me, I am always learning and love to learn. John E is a better hunter than me.
As far as opinion. I like Uncle Sam's viewpoint.
Thanks for not censoring my opinion. God Bless the Land of freedom of expression.
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Re: Activated carbon fraud

Unread postby Boogieman1 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:04 pm

ontario farmer wrote:
Boogieman1 wrote:Image

$19.99 entire set! Colemans military surplus. According to ads can even be refired in your dryer!

A soldiers comment about this suit. I guess the US army thinks they protect against toxic chemicals. Why??? They keep them out. Or scent in.
Ah what does Uncle Sam know anyway. Probably more than John E or Rutgers university.

Nobodybutme (verified owner) – January 12, 2018

I received my chemical suit a few days ago, just like the issued one from years back. The smell of memories and the feel of protection. I give it 5 stars for several reasons: 1. it’s still sealed in the bag with no holes 2. You can clearly read all of the details of sizing on the one side and the inspection/test date on the other side 3. Not only is it slightly nostalgic…it’s protection for when one might need it. These things are so handy for not only chemical disasters for several hours if exposed, they work great for clean up of very messy jobs. Cleaning out a deer, being stuck out in the rain trying to tow a stuck buddy from the mud, even doing demo on a house and you don’t know whats in the walls. Get your hood and mask with gloves for a complete set! I know I’ll even buy an open package suit for a discount they are so handy.

Not sure if you or the former soldier are aware but after afew hours of being opened from the foil lined pack they are to report back to supply because the suit is rendered useless. Don't quote me exactly on the percentage but if I remember correctly a brand new freshly opened suit only offered a 17-19% better odds than a soldier who didn't wear nothing. Many troops didn't see the point of even wearing them and often complained. After afew hours out of the pack once rendered useless since in order to recharge a suit it would require temps to send them a blaze. They are sold by the lot to D.R.M.O which later brakes them down by the lot and sells them to surplus stores. Believe Sitka gear spoke about this when asked why they don't sell activated clothing, and there response was they didn't want to lie to the consumer and want there products to do what they say they do.
Eat the donut not the hole!
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Re: Activated carbon fraud

Unread postby ontario farmer » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:13 pm

Boogieman1 wrote:
ontario farmer wrote:
Boogieman1 wrote:Image

$19.99 entire set! Colemans military surplus. According to ads can even be refired in your dryer!

A soldiers comment about this suit. I guess the US army thinks they protect against toxic chemicals. Why??? They keep them out. Or scent in.
Ah what does Uncle Sam know anyway. Probably more than John E or Rutgers university.

Nobodybutme (verified owner) – January 12, 2018

I received my chemical suit a few days ago, just like the issued one from years back. The smell of memories and the feel of protection. I give it 5 stars for several reasons: 1. it’s still sealed in the bag with no holes 2. You can clearly read all of the details of sizing on the one side and the inspection/test date on the other side 3. Not only is it slightly nostalgic…it’s protection for when one might need it. These things are so handy for not only chemical disasters for several hours if exposed, they work great for clean up of very messy jobs. Cleaning out a deer, being stuck out in the rain trying to tow a stuck buddy from the mud, even doing demo on a house and you don’t know whats in the walls. Get your hood and mask with gloves for a complete set! I know I’ll even buy an open package suit for a discount they are so handy.

Not sure if you or the former soldier are aware but after afew hours of being opened from the foil lined pack they are to report back to supply because the suit is rendered useless. Don't quote me exactly on the percentage but if I remember correctly a brand new freshly opened suit only offered a 17-19% better odds than a soldier who didn't wear nothing. Many troops didn't see the point of even wearing them and often complained. After afew hours out of the pack once rendered useless since in order to recharge a suit it would require temps to send them a blaze. They are sold by the lot to D.R.M.O which later brakes them down by the lot and sells them to surplus stores. Believe Sitka gear spoke about this when asked why they don't sell activated clothing, and there response was they didn't want to lie to the consumer and want there products to do what they say they do.


Interesting thanks ... Sitka would also owe scent lok royalties correct. Were the odds only that much better because of exposed skin.
What is the truth?? Interesting. That is all I care about. There is still the Rutgers study.
Oh well I have some half price scent lok that is one quarter the price of Sitka I guess I will keep wearing it until it wears out and then buy some Sitka or TSC red plaid - my favorite color
I really have to say the comment above is useful to the discussion. Thanks.
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Re: Activated carbon fraud

Unread postby checkerfred » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:17 pm

ontario farmer wrote:I think I will trust the US army's opinion on carbon. Is it perfect... no. But it will reduce scent significantly.
Does controlling scent movement work. Yes but not perfectly. I expect that 1+1=3 when dealing with scent. Control scent movement and the minimize your scent and you will see more deer.
Neither method is for everyone and neither method is perfect.
Some people do nothing about scent control at all. They push a bush and shoot and fill the freezer. It is legal and not the way I want to hunt but maybe that is all the time they have for hunting and filling the freezer. Alright by me. I call that a deer harvest not a hunt though. They call it hunting and that is okay too. They usually enjoy the fellowship with others, I like hunting alone.


I can't agree with this. Even if you minimize your scent, if a deer smells you it's going to know you're there plain and simple. I don't see how it can cause you to see more deer? Busted is busted, it's how the deer react. If a deer smells you and doesn't blow and spook but is just wary, then it will likely not effect other deer in the area. Heck the deer I saw bedded the other day, I had moved a bunch to see what I could get away with...one doe stomped a little bit, whether from scent or movement IDK...but the thing is, the other two deer didn't even react.

As for pushing brush and shooting to fill a freezer, I feel like you're getting caught up in semantics. That's like saying hunting with a gun or crossbow isn't hunting because you think a compound is the only way to hunt. If they're out there to kill a deer, or any game animal, that's hunting...just as trying to catch a pile of bream or trying to catch one huge bass is STILL fishing.


ontario farmer wrote:
dan wrote:
ontario farmer wrote:I am sure John has been winded despite his claims to the contrary. He may not have known it.

So if the amount of scent does not matter. Why play the wind.

Even the military believes in carbon suits. Why??? Seems like those coveralls could not hurt at that price.

WHY PLAY THE WIND? Cause if your wind stream don't hit him, he don't smell you. If he gets your wind stream even for a second, he knows your there. a little or a lot don't matter from my observations, and based on all testing. None, well yea, that makes a difference. Thats why I play the wind.


18 deer crossed my entrance trail. / of those 16 showed no reaction, 1 spooked, and one more sniffed then went about its business.

I guess this comment was what I was referring to. I know you think scent is important. I guess not our scent trail. Our scent trail from walking in is irrelevant.
We all agree the deer use their nose. The nose is more important than sound and certainly sight. Movement is more important to a deer than sight.


I don't see anywhere that Dan said our scent trail doesn't matter. It obviously does as 1 spooked and once sniffed and went on. There's too many factors that can be at play here. I know for a fact that when it's cold outside here, meaning 30's or lower, deer don't smell my ground scent good at all. If there's a frost on the ground they really can't smell as good until it thaws. A high humidity day like fog in the morning or evening, or a light misty rain and I get busted so fast it's unbelievable. Ever notice a deer lick their nose when trying to determine the threat? It's to add some moisture to help them smell. The doe that tried picking me off did that several times.
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Re: Activated carbon fraud

Unread postby checkerfred » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:21 pm

I think the best thing to see more deer is to have good access and play the wind/thermals the best you can and not over hunting a spot....you lose some and win some. The wind can swirl, thermals can change in a split second. If you had access where you would never get ground scent in the area...a place deer would never cross like a barrier, or a creek, you can hunt it a bunch more.
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Re: Activated carbon fraud

Unread postby Boogieman1 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:31 pm

ontario farmer wrote:
Boogieman1 wrote:
ontario farmer wrote:
Boogieman1 wrote:Image

$19.99 entire set! Colemans military surplus. According to ads can even be refired in your dryer!

A soldiers comment about this suit. I guess the US army thinks they protect against toxic chemicals. Why??? They keep them out. Or scent in.
Ah what does Uncle Sam know anyway. Probably more than John E or Rutgers university.

Nobodybutme (verified owner) – January 12, 2018

I received my chemical suit a few days ago, just like the issued one from years back. The smell of memories and the feel of protection. I give it 5 stars for several reasons: 1. it’s still sealed in the bag with no holes 2. You can clearly read all of the details of sizing on the one side and the inspection/test date on the other side 3. Not only is it slightly nostalgic…it’s protection for when one might need it. These things are so handy for not only chemical disasters for several hours if exposed, they work great for clean up of very messy jobs. Cleaning out a deer, being stuck out in the rain trying to tow a stuck buddy from the mud, even doing demo on a house and you don’t know whats in the walls. Get your hood and mask with gloves for a complete set! I know I’ll even buy an open package suit for a discount they are so handy.

Not sure if you or the former soldier are aware but after afew hours of being opened from the foil lined pack they are to report back to supply because the suit is rendered useless. Don't quote me exactly on the percentage but if I remember correctly a brand new freshly opened suit only offered a 17-19% better odds than a soldier who didn't wear nothing. Many troops didn't see the point of even wearing them and often complained. After afew hours out of the pack once rendered useless since in order to recharge a suit it would require temps to send them a blaze. They are sold by the lot to D.R.M.O which later brakes them down by the lot and sells them to surplus stores. Believe Sitka gear spoke about this when asked why they don't sell activated clothing, and there response was they didn't want to lie to the consumer and want there products to do what they say they do.


Interesting thanks ... Sitka would also owe scent lok royalties correct. Were the odds only that much better because of exposed skin.
What is the truth?? Interesting. That is all I care about. There is still the Rutgers study.
Oh well I have some half price scent lok that is one quarter the price of Sitka I guess I will keep wearing it until it wears out and then buy some Sitka or TSC red plaid - my favorite color
I really have to say the comment above is useful to the discussion. Thanks.

Wasn't trying to hurt your sales quota this month, but if military Chem suits could be recharged in a dryer how come they are in surplus stores? I see you are getting a lil defensive here on the subject and I don't care to argue I was just stating facts to the best of my ability. I see you are a big fan of Johns strategies which is great there's a add in the classified section on here for his complete box set think he's selling em pretty cheap but prefers to trade for just one of Dans if u are interested. Happy Holidays!
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Re: Activated carbon fraud

Unread postby Bedbug » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:42 pm

ontario farmer wrote:
Bedbug wrote:
ontario farmer wrote:
Bedbug wrote::idea: in all reality guys

I'm starting to get a handle on John E's F the wind theory. He's really onto something with his scent regimen. It's going to take alot of adapting but..

All I need to do is quit my job, get a divorce, live a scent free life for 5 months out of the year, ohh and spend a couple Grand :think:
Thats it! My 2018 seasons looking deadly

Scent lok is definitely not worth a divorce. Do not buy it.


I'm not normally one to poke fun.
I honestly think the average Hunter following Johns carbon push loses sight of the big picture. The amount of time and money they put in to scent reduction or "scent elimination" in John's words. Is easily twice as useful in other areas of hunting.


I do not disagree. I spend a lot of free time in the woods, learning, scouting, observing. I love it. Just another tool... scent lok and I do wonder why it would not help for the perfectionist types.


If it will HELP is even less my point than it is the reason Scent Lock had to appear in court.. Big fan of science.
Fully activated carbon Can help to reduce scent.
If scent Lock had been tried in court for claiming to tell the customer there products "helped". I do not believe that would have been fraud.
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Re: Activated carbon fraud

Unread postby ontario farmer » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:43 pm

quote
Wasn't trying to hurt your sales quota this month, but if military Chem suits could be recharged in a dryer how come they are in surplus stores? I see you are getting a lil defensive here on the subject and I don't care to argue I was just stating facts to the best of my ability. I see you are a big fan of Johns strategies which is great there's a add in the classified section on here for his complete box set think he's selling em pretty cheap but prefers to trade for just one of Dans if u are interested. Happy Holidays!

Sorry for any sarcasm. I am not trying to sell anything. I am just an ordinary farmer who likes to hunt and I am trying to get better at hunting. Just trying to learn from all sides. And your previous comment is interesting about Uncle Sam. I do like red plaid and think it is a fine color to hunt in by the way..

This subject is certainly contentious. I really want to quit this post but I do want to apologize for my sarcasm. Thanks.



.
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Re: Activated carbon fraud

Unread postby ontario farmer » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:46 pm

Quote

f it will HELP is even less my point than it is the reason Scent Lock had to appear in court.. Big fan of science.
Fully activated carbon Can help to reduce scent.
If scent Lock had been tried in court for claiming to tell the customer there products "helped". I do not believe that would have been fraud.

A reasonable comment. I do think they won the case because of the rutgers study. Thanks
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Re: Activated carbon fraud

Unread postby crackehelmet » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:58 pm

I know almost nothing about hunting, but I've spent more than my fair share of time in a MOPP suit and NBC (now known as CBRN) training. The army isn't trying to control scent with MOPP suits, they are trying to protect you from chemical weapons. Claiming a MOPP suit can control body odor because it can protect you (sort of, we'll get to that) from mustard gas is making a leap of logic without filling in some pretty important gaps. The carbon in the suit is only one half of the Chemistry that kind of goes like this

1: Carbon likes to react with and trap stuff and prevent it from reacting with other stuff. It cannot react with everything though.
2: Chemical weapons, in general, are HIGHLY reactive substances. They just super want to react with anything they touch. The carbon is more than happy to oblige before the chemical can get to you.

This means the reactivity to the molecule you want the carbon to catch is a full half of the puzzle. Do the molecules we give off bond to carbon? I don't know. Probably. But don't mistake the intention behind the Army's use of the MOPP suit. They don't care if anyone can smell you, they're trying to prevent your skin from melting off. Those two things are not intrinsically related.

Secondly, MOPP suits are a very poor form of defense against chemical attacks, it's just better than no defense at all. The idea is to basically allow you to get the heck out of dodge, or to move through an area where an attack may have occurred previously and is still some level of contaminated and get back to the guys with the real gear to get deconned there (The guys in the yellow boot suits https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzX7pmQHSwI )

Anecdotally I've been stuck in a Humvee with four other guys in MOPP 2 (Full suit, no mask or gloves) and it sure didn't seem like anything was helping to cut that stink. I'm even pretty sure I remember the suits themselves stinking pretty bad once we got the all clear to pull them off. I've also noticed that MOPP suits that have been worn into CS chambers retain the smell of CS gas and contact with them can cause slight burning and irritation. To me that suggests that the carbon is not locking all the CS down, or is releasing it (otherwise I couldn't smell it) and is definitely releasing it on contact with skin.
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Re: Activated carbon fraud

Unread postby Bedbug » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:05 pm

ontario farmer wrote:Quote

f it will HELP is even less my point than it is the reason Scent Lock had to appear in court.. Big fan of science.
Fully activated carbon Can help to reduce scent.
If scent Lock had been tried in court for claiming to tell the customer there products "helped". I do not believe that would have been fraud.

A reasonable comment. I do think they won the case because of the rutgers study. Thanks


Help reduce scent and eliminate scent are two very different things Ontario.
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Re: Activated carbon fraud

Unread postby Rob loper » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:13 pm

I think we are really beating a dead horse once again with the whole scent lok saga
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Re: Activated carbon fraud

Unread postby Tim H » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:22 pm

Well this thread was certainly a delight to read! :D
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Re: Activated carbon fraud

Unread postby ontario farmer » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:35 pm

crackehelmet wrote:I know almost nothing about hunting, but I've spent more than my fair share of time in a MOPP suit and NBC (now known as CBRN) training. The army isn't trying to control scent with MOPP suits, they are trying to protect you from chemical weapons. Claiming a MOPP suit can control body odor because it can protect you (sort of, we'll get to that) from mustard gas is making a leap of logic without filling in some pretty important gaps. The carbon in the suit is only one half of the Chemistry that kind of goes like this

1: Carbon likes to react with and trap stuff and prevent it from reacting with other stuff. It cannot react with everything though.
2: Chemical weapons, in general, are HIGHLY reactive substances. They just super want to react with anything they touch. The carbon is more than happy to oblige before the chemical can get to you.

This means the reactivity to the molecule you want the carbon to catch is a full half of the puzzle. Do the molecules we give off bond to carbon? I don't know. Probably. But don't mistake the intention behind the Army's use of the MOPP suit. They don't care if anyone can smell you, they're trying to prevent your skin from melting off. Those two things are not intrinsically related.

Secondly, MOPP suits are a very poor form of defense against chemical attacks, it's just better than no defense at all. The idea is to basically allow you to get the heck out of dodge, or to move through an area where an attack may have occurred previously and is still some level of contaminated and get back to the guys with the real gear to get deconned there (The guys in the yellow boot suits https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzX7pmQHSwI )

Anecdotally I've been stuck in a Humvee with four other guys in MOPP 2 (Full suit, no mask or gloves) and it sure didn't seem like anything was helping to cut that stink. I'm even pretty sure I remember the suits themselves stinking pretty bad once we got the all clear to pull them off. I've also noticed that MOPP suits that have been worn into CS chambers retain the smell of CS gas and contact with them can cause slight burning and irritation. To me that suggests that the carbon is not locking all the CS down, or is releasing it (otherwise I couldn't smell it) and is definitely releasing it on contact with skin.


Carbon filters are used on the cabs of tractors to filter incoming air when spraying chemicals on fields. I know they are effective in that application.
Carbon filters are used before reverse osmosis water filters to remove most harmful bacteria from water and they are very effective. Human odor is produced by bacteria.
In the military the chemical would be on the exterior of the suit which is a problem when removing. I you ever experienced a nerve gas attack even a few molecules on hand and face could be deadly. If the carbon is in the suit the chemical going through the suit area only would be absorbed. The barrier so to speak. Not stuff that remained on the exterior and your hands and face are not protected. But the military must believe they have some ability to absorb chemicals.
I don't really want to argue but I know the first two filters are used by me personally or by a custom operator who sprays for me.

In a water filter they remove bacteria in particular and those filters only need replacing yearly. for a reverse osmosis unit.

Scent Lok... oh well not fully convinced by either side. Keep an open mind guys the only way to get better. I am not being sarcastic... just saying.


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