THP Broadhead Podcasts

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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby PK_ » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:06 am

until you have shot both, and killed plenty of critters with both, you really shouldn’t speak on it.

Light arrows and expandables are fine when everything goes perfect... kind of like tent camping in beautiful weather... but I would rather prepare for the storm.

Good luck to you, no matter what you are flinging out of your modern day slingshot.


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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby The_Real_Jmill » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:13 am

ThePreBanMan wrote:That study isn't scientific and is fundamentally flawed IMHO. It doesn't eliminate any variables in the "testing". It's really not even a test as much as it is some compiled statistics. It's not an apples to apples comparison. What were the draw lengths of the fixed blade shooters vs mechanical? Arrow weights? What about FOC? Average shot distance? What were the draw weights? Who had modern equipment vs early 1990s compounds, etc. The number of hunters in each pool was also drastically different and that directly impacts averages. They only sampled 26 mechanical shooters against 119 fixed blade shooters? The differences in previously stated variables would cause huge swings in the result averages with such a small sample pool. There's one thing that is always true when statistics are involved... Garbage in = garbage out.

The authoritative study on the topic - IMHO - is Dr. Ashby's study. That is apples to apples. Specifically, that study (an actual scientific study with actual testing, not just compiled statistics) shows, irrefutably, that when all things are equal (arrow weight, draw weight, draw length, FOC, fletching, distance to target, bow/equipment, etc) that fixed blade broadheads and specifically single bevel heads, penetrate better, maintain their integrity better and punch through bone better. In fact there was not a category in which a mechanical outperformed a 2 blade single bevel head on actual game animals. Sure the mechanical cuts WIDER but the fixed blade cuts DEEPER. Now measure the surface area of the wound channel produced by each and guess what, the single bevel fixed head cut more tissue.

The study also found that arrows with high FoC outperformed arrows of the same weight with lower FoC. But that there were diminishing returns with FoC above 19% (the sweet spot). It also found that heavy arrows outperform lighter arrows on game. The best performing combo on game was a heavy arrow with FoC at 19% with a single bevel fixed blade head.

I'm not trying to demonize anyone who chooses a mechanical based on it... Hey - use what you like. But make sure you call the ball with eyes wide open... Mechanicals are a pro shop's best friend. They can just eyeball the "tune" with a bow square, sell the dude some mechanicals with it so his BHs hit with FPs and ship it. Saves them a ton of time. Getting FBBHs to impact with FPs requires a lot of time/work to properly tune. Time is money... That's why pro shops are so quick to sling mechanicals at folks.

My opinion is worth what you paid to read it, but there it is...


Bullets Kill because of shock and expansion.........arrows kill due to hemorrhaging so the 9mm/.45 analogy isn't quite apples to apple.

I agree with you on all counts as far as single bevel/FOC/total arrow weight when it comes to penetration especially when it comes to larger animal and BONE. I shot recurve and longbow for a long time and Ashby's study was a staple. I commonly used 200gr. grizzly single bevels with various arrow setups out of my HH Wesley special.

But in terms of whitetail size game with applicable equipment (I am shooting 30.5" draw 70#'s compound with 30+" arrows that weigh no less than 10gpi) I am carrying more than enough KE to pass through a whitetail with large cut diameter expendables, giving me the full benefit of that cut diameter in terms of hemorrhaging which leads to the animals expiration faster with better blood trails. A 2" expandable that passes through creates more tissue damage than said 1 1/8" fixed blade that passes through all things being equal.

I don't, nor do I know anyone that shoots with the intent to hit large bone. Does it happen absolutely, so do paunch hits, but practice and patience with shot selection up my odds on lethal hits far more than broad head selection

Not everyone should shoot mechanicals with their setup, but with the right setup and shot placement the results can be fantastic.

I just don't like when one side praises their way as the only way and that all others are junk. there are two sides to every coin.

take smart shots and put the arrow/bolt where it outta go and there isn't much to worry about.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby mike_mc » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:45 am

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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Jdw » Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:52 am

austin1990 wrote:
JakeB wrote:I shoot killzones with a heavy arrow. I’ve had penetration issues with them with lighter arrows. And I have a short draw. I basically started upping weight until pass throughs became the norm.

I choose a bigger cutting diameter over a smaller because most of my bad shots are usually guts and liver. The bottom of the shoulder blade and knuckle are the only heavy bone on a whitetail I’m worried about and they make up a very small percentage of possible hit locations.
Even spine shots I really don’t have issues with while using killzones, I just get a second arrow in as soon as possible.

With a gut/liver shot I’ll take a larger hole any day of the week.

I guess if I was having issues hitting the shoulder repeatedly I’d probably shoot a smaller fixed blade, but that’s just hasn’t proven to be the case for me.


I shoot rage trypans for the same reason. I have a tendency to shoot farther back more often than forward and that 2 inch cut helps a ton! My current setup is 450 grains, 288 fps with 16% foc and I've never had a penetration problem with deer or hogs.


I have had the same problem in the past. Shooting to far back.
I was afraid to aim at the best part of the kill zone because of the shoulder covering it.
I started shooting QAD exodus and aiming for the spot where the heart and lungs attach and I’m not going back.

QAD shoot as good as the grim reapers, rage and wasp I have shot and another advantage is I have shot 6 deer with one pack of them and after a few minutes on a diamond stone they are like new.

Not quite single bevel but a big improvement over the other heads I’ve used.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Twenty Up » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:43 am

B6AEBA73-D339-44CD-9C48-EBB3C3A6C97A.jpeg



This picture was floating around Facebook, I believe the man who posted this photo took this after his father had killed the deer. Upon cleaning they found this arrow embedded in the ribs. If memory serves me correct, this was some years ago.

Now, we can say “older compounds weren’t as efficient as modern bows”. We also do not know the arrow’s owner nor his setup, shot distance etc... So there’s a lot of assumptions to be made.

What we do know, is that what appears off a hard angling shot, even fixed blades “fail” and the inevitable is that deer are TOUGH SOB’s.

The mentality that “my setup can blow through bone” is setting the hunter up for failure in my opinion.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby mauser06 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:55 pm

I came back to this thread to post a link to the video....Mike beat me to it.



It's the off season or will be.


There's a lot of guys that think this stuff is garbage or we are fixing problems that don't exist or whatever.

When you are bored one day, start with that video. Then dive into Ranch Fairy's stuff....then dive into the Ashby studies.



Someone said the results are skewed because of a small number. Dr. Ashby has studied and documented more animals than probably all of us will ever kill.



Like I said before....to each his own. Don't buy into it if you don't wanna. But if you are a serious archer, spend a little time and dig into this stuff. Look at the tests and studies and such.


It just plain makes sense. It's VISIBLE stuff not voodoo.


I've said it for years...I think the archery industry and the light arrows and flimsy heads being pimped is just crazy. Anyone that's been shooting a little while can tell you...over the passed few years many arrow makers have started making heavier shafts and FOC specific shafts. Why? Hmmmm. I wonder. I remember 15ish years ago nearly everything on the shelf would barely make an IBO shaft.



Someone mentioned one of the most popular mechanical heads on the market SHEARED blades on WHITETAIL RIBS!!! that is NOT acceptable!!!
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Wolfie417 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:59 pm

Camoface13 wrote:Simply put, I shoot a very light arrow with a Killzone Expandable. Never had an issue unless it was a poor shot placement. I’m always wanting to learn and improve, can you guys give me both sides to whether lighter and faster for the reasons that “side” lists vs a single bevel, heavier arrow would be better for Midwest whitetail hunting. I shoot 64lbs and I think 28.5” arrow

In my opinion there is almost no advantage to a light arrow.
A heavier arrow will make your bow quieter, increase penetration, even often improve accuracy.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby crankn101 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:28 pm

One of the hunting public guys made a follow up shot on his deer and the arrow got maybe half of an arrow penetration, why is that? I thought heavy arrows with small heads blow through everything? He also hit way high because he didnt have trust in his set up and yardage estimating. That all plays into it but all people say is ashby this and ashby that without realizing its a double edge sword. Not everyone is shooting pigs at a feeder or giraffes from a hut.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby djw195 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:34 pm

The off-season is a good time to watch the ranch fairy playlist “facts start here” and read Ashby’s 12 rules of penetration or whatever it’s called. Go in with an open mind and draw your own conclusion. If you want to make changes before next season then you’ll have the time. Note that ranch fairy admits he’s had great success with mechanicals, the only problem was they weren’t consistently successful which led him down another path. He also doesn’t advocate taking shots your not comfortable with, there is no problem passing on a shot. Also, keeping shooting distances within reasonable ranges is another important factor as well.

I’ve Bowhunted for 10 to 15 years, I used mechanicals in the beginning but got away from them only because moving parts made me nervous. I also had a horrible time finding fixed Broadheads that flew well, it was a huge pain, until I found magnus buzzcuts. They flew perfect from the beginning and have been reliable. Nowadays, fixed heads, tuning, technology, knowledge, etc. has all come a long way for archery, so finding fixed heads that fly with field points is way more common than in the past.

The way I’ve built my arrows is really around how to have as no fail of a system as possible. Pretty much anything will kill a deer within 30 yards perfectly broadside in their kill zone with the average adult bow, but I want my setup to handle the more problem shots. I want my set up to survive going in front of the crease to get the kill or the cutting diameter to do as much damage as possible if I go behind the crease into the guts and liver. I prefer a 4 blade, cut on contact, double bevel Broadhead for this as I feel like it covers a lot of the bases.

I watched ranch fairy’s stuff earlier last year and it really got me thinking. Previously I shot 365 grain arrow with magnus buzzcuts with 26.5 dl 60lb bow, never really had any issues with penetration, blood trails were not spectacular but deer usually went down within 60 yards. My set up last year was a 490 grain arrow 24% foc, magnus black hornet out of 60lb 26.5 dl bow. I shot a buck at 10 yards slight quarter to downward from a tree stand, got full penetration thru him just didn’t poke out the hide on the other side, deer went 100 yards. It was a success, but I saw weakness in my set up. So I’m moving up to 565 grain arrow 20% foc so I guarantee the pass thru on that type of shot. I’d also like to get my hands on the iron will wide cut Broadheads due to their cutting and inherent durability due to materials their constructed by. I guess the point here is that my setup has been an evolution since the beginning on what I’ve learned and observed, I’m sure it will continue.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Aaron1987 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:11 pm

raisins wrote:There is a trade off, but for me the faster arrow wins the trade off when hunting whitetails. Also, I find a fast arrow just more fun to shoot.

If you shoot a well tuned, powerful bow with 60 lbs or more draw weight and a 28" or longer draw length, then light arrows with the right broadhead will blow through a whitetail about every time unless you hit spine, humerus, or the spine/socket of the shoulder blade.

I shoot a 338 fps IBO bow with 63 lbs draw weight (60 lbs limbs bottomed out) and a 29.5" draw length with a 375 grain arrow with a 1 3/8" expandable Grim Reaper broadhead. With my setup, I get around 300 fps.

A well tuned bow with a 375 grain arrow will out penetrate a much heavier arrow that is fishtailing.

In the past 4 years with that particular bow, I've killed 8 deer with it and never had an arrow consider staying in the animal and have recovered every animal within 100 yards.

The arrow blows through so fast that I've considered going to lighted nocks so I can more easily see where I've hit the thing.

The bow is not loud and I've experimented with a 500 grain arrow and had friends and family listen for differences, and no one can detect one (I switch the order of arrows and ask them to pick loudest while standing to the side).

So, I just don't get the current trend of much heavier arrows, with high FOC, and single bevel broadheads when shooting whitetails. Elk, sure.

With a 300 fps arrow, I can set my moveable pin to 25 yards and hit within a few inches from 0 to 30 yards. That is a huge advantage. If I am set up where my farthest shot is 30 yards (even in WV this is common), then I can put away the range finder and hardly even consider distance.

A larger broadhead with more blades is more likely to help on most bad hits because most bad hits are to the liver, stomach, or intestines and based upon the following logic. The eventually lethal but soft areas of a deer (liver/guts) are much larger in area than the humerus, spine, and hard parts of the scapula. Also, if a deer is walking at all, then the arrow is going to hit back towards liver/guts unless the deer has a reverse gear. This matches talking with others and watching videos. Hardly ever is a tracking job needed because they hit the humerus square. I've made bad hits on several deer when younger and 3 were gut shot and 1 was a hard duck that put the arrow into the neck above the spine.

The only reason I would go to a heavy arrow with single bevel is if I wanted to try shooting through the shoulder/leg bone of hard quartering towards deer (which I consider a bad shot regardless of set up) or if my set up (recurve/longbow or light poundage or short draw) did not generate a lot of energy. When I hunted with a 50 lbs recurve, I used a 2 blade Magnus Stinger and a 500 grain carbon arrow because a 50 lbs recurve is very anemic in comparison to most compound set ups.

I actually think that the heavy arrow, single bevel trend might lead to more bad hits. I heard a pretty famous youtube hunter say "with this heavy arrow and single bevel, I can put the pin where it needs to be and not worry about shooting around bone". That's a really bad idea. If he squarely hits the head of the humerus, he doesn't have a great chance of penetrating it. And his set up will give him false confidence to not wait for a better shot.


I would take a quartering to shot with my current setup but only if it’s under the correct, close quarters situation when I was confident the arrow would penetrate the chest cavity. Arrow is about 580 grains with 150 grain single bevel head. We saw issues with some mechanical blades deflecting off ribs and causing poor shots with good placement. All of us at THP have now shot arrows and broadheads from both ends of the spectrum. So far we have seen slightly more positives out of the heavy FOC setups with cut on contact heads than light arrows with expandables. To each their own though. Lots of ways to skin the cat. The only thing we don’t want is a deer a to suffer or to hit and lose an animal. After much thought we’ve landed on the heavy setups with razor sharp heads for our style of hunting.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Aaron1987 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:25 pm

crankn101 wrote:One of the hunting public guys made a follow up shot on his deer and the arrow got maybe half of an arrow penetration, why is that? I thought heavy arrows with small heads blow through everything? He also hit way high because he didnt have trust in his set up and yardage estimating. That all plays into it but all people say is ashby this and ashby that without realizing its a double edge sword. Not everyone is shooting pigs at a feeder or giraffes from a hut.


That guy was me. I panicked on the 2nd shot you mention in the heat of the moment, mis judged the yardage, and the deer moved at the sound therefore hitting him high. The arrow went through multiple vertebrae along the spine before lodging in the backbone between the deer’s neck and head.

Only reason I took that 40 yard follow up was because the deer had been hit already. Would not take a shot past 30 on a whitetail under other circumstances. Ashby didn’t only shoot giraffes. He shot wild game across the world noting near 2000 total animals in his study if I’m not mistaken. I could be wrong but think that’s what I remember.

Reason why we switched was because we’d lost some deer due to deflections. Also had several long track jobs on marginally hit deer due to deflection. We killed many with light setups as well but believe our current setup is slightly better for our situation and style of hunting.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Aaron1987 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:25 pm

crankn101 wrote:One of the hunting public guys made a follow up shot on his deer and the arrow got maybe half of an arrow penetration, why is that? I thought heavy arrows with small heads blow through everything? He also hit way high because he didnt have trust in his set up and yardage estimating. That all plays into it but all people say is ashby this and ashby that without realizing its a double edge sword. Not everyone is shooting pigs at a feeder or giraffes from a hut.


That guy was me. I panicked on the 2nd shot you mention in the heat of the moment, mis judged the yardage, and the deer moved at the sound therefore hitting him high. The arrow went through multiple vertebrae along the spine before lodging in the backbone between the deer’s neck and head.

Only reason I took that 40 yard follow up was because the deer had been hit already. Would not take a shot past 30 on a whitetail under other circumstances. Ashby didn’t only shoot giraffes. He shot wild game across the world noting near 2000 total animals in his study if I’m not mistaken. I could be wrong but think that’s what I remember.

Reason why we switched was because we’d lost some deer due to deflections. Also had several long track jobs on marginally hit deer due to deflection. We killed many with light setups as well but believe our current setup is slightly better for our situation and style of hunting.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby Wannabelikedan » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:45 pm

Twenty Up wrote:B6AEBA73-D339-44CD-9C48-EBB3C3A6C97A.jpeg


This picture was floating around Facebook, I believe the man who posted this photo took this after his father had killed the deer. Upon cleaning they found this arrow embedded in the ribs. If memory serves me correct, this was some years ago.

Now, we can say “older compounds weren’t as efficient as modern bows”. We also do not know the arrow’s owner nor his setup, shot distance etc... So there’s a lot of assumptions to be made.

What we do know, is that what appears off a hard angling shot, even fixed blades “fail” and the inevitable is that deer are TOUGH SOB’s.

The mentality that “my setup can blow through bone” is setting the hunter up for failure in my opinion.


I look at this picture and agree that deer are beyond tough but disagree that the hunter’s equipment failed. You’re talking 4-5 ribs penetrated at an angle that is extremely tough to break ribs. I would lean more towards the hunter failed or the shot angle was altered before impact. If the arrow can’t pass through a vital organ it will not kill and with this shot angle that arrow had no chance of hitting any vital organs if it had completely passed through.
Straight from the Ashby studies.....
68C544B4-D86A-485A-A721-302AB17A702F.jpeg
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby The_Real_Jmill » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:30 am

Aaron1987 wrote:
crankn101 wrote:One of the hunting public guys made a follow up shot on his deer and the arrow got maybe half of an arrow penetration, why is that? I thought heavy arrows with small heads blow through everything? He also hit way high because he didnt have trust in his set up and yardage estimating. That all plays into it but all people say is ashby this and ashby that without realizing its a double edge sword. Not everyone is shooting pigs at a feeder or giraffes from a hut.


That guy was me. I panicked on the 2nd shot you mention in the heat of the moment, mis judged the yardage, and the deer moved at the sound therefore hitting him high. The arrow went through multiple vertebrae along the spine before lodging in the backbone between the deer’s neck and head.

Only reason I took that 40 yard follow up was because the deer had been hit already. Would not take a shot past 30 on a whitetail under other circumstances. Ashby didn’t only shoot giraffes. He shot wild game across the world noting near 2000 total animals in his study if I’m not mistaken. I could be wrong but think that’s what I remember.

Reason why we switched was because we’d lost some deer due to deflections. Also had several long track jobs on marginally hit deer due to deflection. We killed many with light setups as well but believe our current setup is slightly better for our situation and style of hunting.


Just curious

I know you have a pretty decent draw length as do I mine being 30"+. do you all shoot FMJ's and if so what expendables types were you having deflection problems with. If they were over the top expendables I could see but with 450gr. arrow weight and rear deploying blades you shouldn't have to many issues.
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Re: THP Broadhead Podcasts

Unread postby RiverBottoms » Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:26 am

I watched the THP video last night and have seen a few Ranch Fairy videos in the past. I'm intrigued.... Sometimes the ability to confidently take a shoulder/quartering too angled shot can be a game changer. I've also seen some of the really odd rib deflection hits they talked about in the video, and found too many broken Grim Reaper blades on the inside of the chest cavity (offside, and on does mostly for some odd reason). My only concern would be lame blood trails if I switched to a single bevel type set up. I've only hunted with mechanicals, for all intents and purposes. Thread subscribed


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