Antler restriction

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Boogieman1
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Antler restriction

Unread postby Boogieman1 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:14 am

Curious what you alls thoughts are on antler restrictions. The county I do the majority of my hunting in has a minimum of 13” inside spread restriction. Have never had this really adversely effect me until yesterday. I had what I considered a mature animal in my wheel house that I wanted desperately to shoot. However, instead of his horns growing out wide they went straight up. Tall, heavy rack with stickers all over it. Couldn’t have been more than 11 or 12 inches wide. But I found myself no longer liking this law. Had to let a buck walk that would have put a heck of a smile on my face.

This got me thinking about youth hunters who must follow this same law. For me, I can grit my teeth and take it cause I get to spend more time out there than the avg Joe. Most kids around here or heck even some adults don’t get much time in the woods. Guessing probably only a handful of days per season. That makes it tough to get a buck that is considered legal. Don’t think there is any laws or restrictions that will please everyone but my feelings are a kid should be able to shoot any buck he wants.

What kind of antler restrictions do y’all have? Any downfalls? How would you set it up?


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thwack16
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Re: Antler restriction

Unread postby thwack16 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:24 am

12" wide or 15" beam for the most part of the state. Almost all of the public I hunt upgrades that to 15" wide or an 18" beam.

Youth exempt from ARs throughout the state. Some public excludes that law however.

I like ARs. I like the combo of the width or beam length more than any other I've seen.

ARs do have a tendency to "high grade" the bucks if people are simply looking for the minimum.

One buck tag a season is likely the best antler restriction.
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cspot
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Re: Antler restriction

Unread postby cspot » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:17 am

I am not a big fan of AR's. In PA it depends on your location, but where I am it is a "3 up" rule on one side. Basically the brow tine doesn't count either way. There is always some odd ball deer that become mature deer that aren't legal even though they are mature. Not very many of them though.

The only good thing about the AR's here is that kids are exempt from them, so it actually gives them far more available buck to be able to shoot.
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Re: Antler restriction

Unread postby RiverBottoms » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:18 am

We used to have APRs that required 4 pts (including the brow tine, and each has to be at least 3 inches) on one side in certain portions of the state, which most of those have been lifted due to a slaughter in the name of CWD prevention.

To me, an APR that requires a certain number of pts. on one side is much easier to follow that a min. inside spread or beam length. Field judging the inside spread or beam length sounds like a real chore in the hunting woods. What happens if you shoot one the is just under the req.?

I personally don't mind protecting younger age class deer as long as kids and vets etc. get an exception (if they choose to ignore the APR)
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Re: Antler restriction

Unread postby Racks&Beards » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:29 am

Missouri has the "at least 4 points on one side" AR over a lot of the state. Mostly the northern 2/3's. I have no issue with it personally. I would probably pass 99% of the bucks that aren't legal anyways.

With that said, I saw a story on one of the Missouri hunting FB groups of a guy who shot an old stud with a funky 6pt rack a few weeks ago...THEN got permission to keep it after the MDC determined it was indeed an old mature buck (like 7 or 8 if I remember right). From what I understand, he didn't get the "okay" from the MDC BEFORE shooting it either. I'm glad the MDC let him keep the buck without any issues, but I'm not sure I would risk my hunting privileges by shooting something like that while simply hoping they let it slide. :shock:
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Re: Antler restriction

Unread postby Racks&Beards » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:33 am

RiverBottoms wrote:To me, an APR that requires a certain number of pts. on one side is much easier to follow that a min. inside spread or beam length. Field judging the inside spread or beam length sounds like a real chore in the hunting woods. What happens if you shoot one the is just under the req.?


I agree. I was really surprised the first time I ever heard of that type of AR. Yeah, it would be easy to spot ones that are WAY smaller or WAY bigger, but I'd probably be passing a lot of deer that were iffy. :lol:
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Re: Antler restriction

Unread postby Boogieman1 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:37 am

RiverBottoms wrote:We used to have APRs that required 4 pts (including the brow tine, and each has to be at least 3 inches) on one side in certain portions of the state, which most of those have been lifted due to a slaughter in the name of CWD prevention.

To me, an APR that requires a certain number of pts. on one side is much easier to follow that a min. inside spread or beam length. Field judging the inside spread or beam length sounds like a real chore in the hunting woods. What happens if you shoot one the is just under the req.?

I personally don't mind protecting younger age class deer as long as kids and vets etc. get an exception (if they choose to ignore the APR)

Kind of my thinking. I mean what happens if a guy gets stopped and is 1/8” shy of the restriction. How in the heck can u judge that on the hoof? I’m my area there seems to be loop holes for ones looking for em. Used to be your 2nd buck had to be better than the first. So guys would shoot the first decent thing they saw then hold out for something nice. Then it went to 1 buck county and come thanksgiving same guys are gonna shoot something. Don’t feel that law did any good. Now, the thing that rubs me wrong is the only areas in my state that have Ar’s are the tougher counties. You head to the primo areas where you better have some serious cash and they don’t have squat except self imposed restrictions. Seems to me the only ones they are regulating are the public or blue collar hunters. In money areas they shoot whatever and use terms like “management “ buck.
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Re: Antler restriction

Unread postby Boogieman1 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:44 am

Racks&Beards wrote:Missouri has the "at least 4 points on one side" AR over a lot of the state. Mostly the northern 2/3's. I have no issue with it personally. I would probably pass 99% of the bucks that aren't legal anyways.

With that said, I saw a story on one of the Missouri hunting FB groups of a guy who shot an old stud with a funky 6pt rack a few weeks ago...THEN got permission to keep it after the MDC determined it was indeed an old mature buck (like 7 or 8 if I remember right). From what I understand, he didn't get the "okay" from the MDC BEFORE shooting it either. I'm glad the MDC let him keep the buck without any issues, but I'm not sure I would risk my hunting privileges by shooting something like that while simply hoping they let it slide. :shock:

To be honest I was thinking similar thoughts yesterday. I had brief period where I thought to myself if this is the kinda buck they wanna protect then let them fine my but. Just the thought of having to be looked at as some kind of wildlife law breaker talked me out of it. Just seems any kind of game violation is looked at the same. A guy cutting off a limb in a no cut area is viewed the same as illegal baiters or Poachers. Just decided to eat it and hope for better days.
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Re: Antler restriction

Unread postby Bowonly » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:46 am

thwack16 wrote:
ARs do have a tendency to "high grade" the bucks if people are simply looking for the minimum.

One buck tag a season is likely the best antler restriction.




I agree.

Kentucky went to a one buck limit around 20 years ago and that has probably done more for antler size than any other 1 thing. Most guys pass 1 1/2 y/o bucks and a lot pass 2 1/2 year olds. It might not be the best fit everywhere but it's worked here.
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Re: Antler restriction

Unread postby Jonny » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:48 am

I think its like any other regulation, some will like it, some will hate it, and most will just be annoyed we have more rules to follow. Way better ways to accomplish the same thing. Maybe just make the state one buck regardless of having a bow and gun license. Shoot your spike opening day and then sit on the sidelines the rest of the year. That would make you think twice about shooting one early. And also keep doe tags low so people don't shoot those instead because they gotta get theirs. Need chicks to make peckers that grow racks.

Honestly I don't know what the overall goal is. If you want to create a trophy environment, do what Iowa does. Don't let non residents hunt every year and make 90 some percent of the state private land. If a significant portion of the state is public land, you will always have guys who want/will and should be able to shoot whatever they want as long as they have a tag for it. Kind of sick of making more rules to please those who yell the loudest.

If you want older deer, you need to reduce the amount of deer killed before they reach maturity. Real easy way is to just cut tags and let people enjoy their hunts by seeing deer. Never heard anybody complain about seeing deer and not wanting to fill a tag. Way more complaints about people never seeing anything.
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Re: Antler restriction

Unread postby Racks&Beards » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:51 am

Boogieman1 wrote: Just seems any kind of game violation is looked at the same. A guy cutting off a limb in a no cut area is viewed the same as illegal baiters or Poachers. Just decided to eat it and hope for better days.


I think it just depends on the agent/officer you deal with...just like dealing with any LEO. But I wouldn't want to risk it.
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Re: Antler restriction

Unread postby Boogieman1 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:12 am

Jonny wrote:I think its like any other regulation, some will like it, some will hate it, and most will just be annoyed we have more rules to follow. Way better ways to accomplish the same thing. Maybe just make the state one buck regardless of having a bow and gun license. Shoot your spike opening day and then sit on the sidelines the rest of the year. That would make you think twice about shooting one early. And also keep doe tags low so people don't shoot those instead because they gotta get theirs. Need chicks to make peckers that grow racks.

Honestly I don't know what the overall goal is. If you want to create a trophy environment, do what Iowa does. Don't let non residents hunt every year and make 90 some percent of the state private land. If a significant portion of the state is public land, you will always have guys who want/will and should be able to shoot whatever they want as long as they have a tag for it. Kind of sick of making more rules to please those who yell the loudest.

If you want older deer, you need to reduce the amount of deer killed before they reach maturity. Real easy way is to just cut tags and let people enjoy their hunts by seeing deer. Never heard anybody complain about seeing deer and not wanting to fill a tag. Way more complaints about people never seeing anything.

I’m with you. I don’t know what the goal is either. They throw all this campaigning around hunter recruitment and youth hunters. Then in the next breath they set up laws to benefit oil money in my area. Hey, y’all public guys need to make sure y’alls crap on your side of the fence is over 13” wide and 5+ years old. Mean while, hey y’all private tycoons need to start hammering the younger bucks with under 12 points. We will even give you some extra tags, remember me when it’s time to vote. Just rubs me the wrong way.
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cspot
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Re: Antler restriction

Unread postby cspot » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:15 am

The whole goal of PA's AR's was to allow more buck to live to 2.5 years old. I think prior to AR 90% of the harvest was 1.5 year olds. It isn't about trophy management. Very few bucks in PA live past 2.5 now.
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Re: Antler restriction

Unread postby Boogieman1 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:36 am

cspot wrote:The whole goal of PA's AR's was to allow more buck to live to 2.5 years old. I think prior to AR 90% of the harvest was 1.5 year olds. It isn't about trophy management. Very few bucks in PA live past 2.5 now.

That’s deff a different take. I guess in my head, in the grand plan, what is the diff in a buck living until 2.5? I personally think if a state really cared about the age of animals yet still having a lengthy season. Then have a short gun season that takes place after the rut. No antler restriction required! Be willing to bet after a few years of that there will be much better opportunity for a trophy class animal. Won’t ever happen due to money involved which brings me back to what is the point of antler restriction lol. I mean if they wanna go for the gold in terms of trophy caliber animals there’s better ways to go about it. But imo letting a 1.5 go to 2.5 does nothing for the trophy or meat hunter.
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Re: Antler restriction

Unread postby cspot » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:44 am

Boogieman1 wrote:
cspot wrote:The whole goal of PA's AR's was to allow more buck to live to 2.5 years old. I think prior to AR 90% of the harvest was 1.5 year olds. It isn't about trophy management. Very few bucks in PA live past 2.5 now.

That’s deff a different take. I guess in my head, in the grand plan, what is the diff in a buck living until 2.5? I personally think if a state really cared about the age of animals yet still having a lengthy season. Then have a short gun season that takes place after the rut. No antler restriction required! Be willing to bet after a few years of that there will be much better opportunity for a trophy class animal. Won’t ever happen due to money involved which brings me back to what is the point of antler restriction lol. I mean if they wanna go for the gold in terms of trophy caliber animals there’s better ways to go about it. But imo letting a 1.5 go to 2.5 does nothing for the trophy or meat hunter.


It was to get a better age structure in the herd which it did help. As hunters numbers drop the need for it will be less and I could see them being eliminated. They are actually talking about eliminating them next year in the CWD areas. About 2/3 of hunters like the current antler restrictions though because they are now shooting a nice 2 year old 8 point instead of a 1.5 year old. On average we probably have some more 3.5 year old and older buck, but it hasn't made a huge difference. The decrease in hunter numbers is helping with that more than the AR's.

One thing to remember is that PA has the highest hunter density in the country, so what is needed here might not be needed alot of other places. Going to an AR is better then reducing opportunity. From my understanding if they made a more restrictive Antler restriction then they would be protecting too many bucks which wouldn't be good either. Also you would have more buck that would never meet the AR.


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