What is the likelihood the bucks just aren't around?

Discuss the science of figuring out our prey through good detective work.
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mheichelbech
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What is the likelihood the bucks just aren't around?

Unread postby mheichelbech » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:38 am

Saw a post on FB about a guy saying he never sees bucks bigger than 125 inches. This got me to wondering, how does a hunter know if the property he/she is hunting:

A) Does have bigger mature bucks around but they just aren't hunting/scouting it properly and therefore the bucks are eluding the hunter, the hunter's cameras, and all around detection.

B) The property just doesn't have bigger bucks and the hunter needs to look elsewhere?

For me, this can be a difficult question as I have killed big bucks where there was very little sign but afterwards I was able to figure out he had been living on the property and I just hadn't looked in the right places. I also have had properties where I see big bucks all Summer and they just seem to disappear come October and then maybe I see them once or twice in season or hear about others having seen them but they seem to be extremely elusive or not patternable. I have another property where we seem to always get trail cam pics of bucks with awesome potential....really nice 2-3 year old bucks but they seem to just disappear after that and you don't see them next season...did they die or did they just become more elusive with age and experience?

What I can say is that the majority of the time, but not ALL the time, if a property has a big buck or bucks around, I will eventually either see the buck or see the sign or talk to someone who has. My biggest weakness is an inability to write a property off. I am always thinking like the kid shoveling manure out of the horse stall even if the manure isn't there and I end up wasting valuable time hunting places where the odds are low.....or hunting places at low odds times. For example, I have 2 properties that seem to be best hunted only during the rut. They are smaller properties with lots of does but are also subject to pressure as they don't have great entry/exit scenarios available. Next year, I plan to hunt to focus on these 2 properties exclusively during the rut.

It's so funny, I read all this great advice but it never seems to really sink in until I experience something myself....


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Re: What is the likelihood the bucks just aren't around?

Unread postby KRoss480 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:25 am

Im interested to hear others thoughts on this as well. I kinda ran into a similar situation where I scouted a relatively small block of woods and didn’t find a whole lot of sign that would lead me to believe there’s a mature buck in the area. But I also heard Dan say in a podcast that there may not be a lot of sign in an area due to there being a mature buck in the area. How do you decipher which is which?
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Re: What is the likelihood the bucks just aren't around?

Unread postby stash59 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:53 am

I'd say pretty high odds bucks larger than 125" aren't around.

It takes a special animal to reach B&C proportions. Not only the right genes. But a perfect combination of genes, cunningness/instinct and luck. To reach an age where it is near it's full potential. I believe a buck's mother has alot to do with it's ability to survive to a more mature age. If a buck fawn is born to a young doe. She may not know the ropes, and be able to teach the fawn. As well as an old mature doe. About how to survive. So even if it has B&C potential. Odds are it will get killed at too young of an age to reach it.

Then consider most 3YO bucks are super active during the rut. Which means they're more susceptiple to hunters at that time. Many 3YO's will never score over 130". And odds are high they don't make it to 4YO.

Even a 150" 4YO is a unique animal in alot of areas of the country. Even in so called "trophy" states. They still have to survive those first 3 hunting seasons. To make it to that age. And have the genetics and nutrition available. To carry that size of antlers!

As far as knowing if 1 or some are around your hunting area. Cams and observations are the only way to know for sure. Yes 1 might never give you a pic or let you put eyes on him. But if your seeing large tracks I'd give it a shot. But large tracks aren't always made by bucks with alot of inches of antlers.
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Re: What is the likelihood the bucks just aren't around?

Unread postby seazofcheeze » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:07 am

I think regular glassing/shining is the most reliable method of finding what bucks are around. Ive had several experiences where I've glassed a buck in an area repeatedly, where I also had trail cams running, and never got the buck on cam. Also, big tracks, usually means a big buck (at least big bodied).
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Re: What is the likelihood the bucks just aren't around?

Unread postby may21581 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:37 am

There is a similiar property I hunt that is public that I am trying to unravel myself. It is about 6000 acres of hills, hollows, ag on top, ag on bottom, thick nasty swamps, ridges, and old clear cuts. Every summer guys capture 160" bucks and larger on camera. I have shot some mature bucks from here, but the true b&c bucks disappear like ghosts come the third week of september.
With all the bedding, food sources, does, and room to roam I have come to the conclusion that there is one factor that will trump all no matter how good the others are. This is pressure, the biggest oldest ones will go where they can survive to reach their potential. If he didnt do this he would be dead already.
So my efforts going forward is to find the pockets of cover that have all those ingredients plus a location where he can grow old without constant harassment from humans and some natural predators. One spot that looked great from aerials and a food source location should of been good bedding. Upon further scouting I discovered a permanent stand near by and kicked a coyote out of here. Upon further scouting I found two dead deer within close proximity that were taken by coyotes. This area that I had found was in fact coyote bedding. What mature buck will want to deal with this on a daily basis? This area has been removed off my list.
So this brings me to a question. I have found several areas that are in fact secluded. These are ridges with benches and i see no hunter sign or worn doe trails. I also see no buck sign, no rubs, scrapes, or any visible sign one was there but it just looks perfect. When you guys find these areas on public that have the ingredients to hold a true giant do you find the sign to go with it in the area or are you going off camera work and process of elimination? Just wanting some thoughts on this?
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Re: What is the likelihood the bucks just aren't around?

Unread postby Hawthorne » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:43 am

I think if a buck makes it to 4 years old he has a unhunted sanctuary somewhere. Could be something that’s an acre or two big. I have noticed the mature bucks do gravitate to the same properties over time. I guess a buck spending time somewhere has a 2 year old , could be in a different area has a 4 year old. Could be an area across the road with no hunting access
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Re: What is the likelihood the bucks just aren't around?

Unread postby mheichelbech » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:47 am

may21581 wrote:There is a similiar property I hunt that is public that I am trying to unravel myself. It is about 6000 acres of hills, hollows, ag on top, ag on bottom, thick nasty swamps, ridges, and old clear cuts. Every summer guys capture 160" bucks and larger on camera. I have shot some mature bucks from here, but the true b&c bucks disappear like ghosts come the third week of september.
With all the bedding, food sources, does, and room to roam I have come to the conclusion that there is one factor that will trump all no matter how good the others are. This is pressure, the biggest oldest ones will go where they can survive to reach their potential. If he didnt do this he would be dead already.
So my efforts going forward is to find the pockets of cover that have all those ingredients plus a location where he can grow old without constant harassment from humans and some natural predators. One spot that looked great from aerials and a food source location should of been good bedding. Upon further scouting I discovered a permanent stand near by and kicked a coyote out of here. Upon further scouting I found two dead deer within close proximity that were taken by coyotes. This area that I had found was in fact coyote bedding. What mature buck will want to deal with this on a daily basis? This area has been removed off my list.
So this brings me to a question. I have found several areas that are in fact secluded. These are ridges with benches and i see no hunter sign or worn doe trails. I also see no buck sign, no rubs, scrapes, or any visible sign one was there but it just looks perfect. When you guys find these areas on public that have the ingredients to hold a true giant do you find the sign to go with it in the area or are you going off camera work and process of elimination? Just wanting some thoughts on this?

You should at least see tracks however, even this can be a problem. For example, around here, Sept., Oct. and Nov. it can be pretty dry around here and then you have trees sucking up whatever moisture there is. I would search it in the offseason, especially January and February when the ground is consistently wet and tracks should be visible. Another option is to setup an observation stand if possible. Sit somewhere that is far enough away that you wouldn't be detected, see if any deer/bucks are using the area. Dan has also talked about gridding a property....basically splitting it up into areas that are visible and hunting each one and by process of elimination, you would eventually see the buck or you write it off as not productive. The only trouble with this approach is if you have a property that a buck or bucks only use at certain times. The grid approach is most successful of course, if you are confident a buck is in the area somewhere and you have access to all the somewheres. I just don't see mature bucks being on any consistent patterns except maybe at the very beginning of the season (depending on when your season starts) and the very end of the season (depending on how consistently cold it gets). If you hunt an area that doesn't open until October 1 and where in late December it's more likely to be 50 degrees than it is 5 degrees it can be really difficult but it does happen. For me, success on mature bucks has been a multi-season endeavor. A lot of things that I learned 3-4 years ago are just now finally starting to pay off....and then for me, last season was a dud because of EHD. There were so many deer that died in the county I primarily hunt that it pretty much drained all confidence in finding any of the bucks that I had id'd from the prior seasons. Did I just not find them or where they dead of EHD or did they get shot? Who knows??
Another thing I think was mentioned, I think some bucks just don't lay down much sign. They don't rub a lot for whatever reason. This makes observation really important.
Several guys have talked about keeping a journal. This is especially important when you have bucks that only show up at certain times of the season. For example, I know of 2 spots that I can go to when acorns are falling and can have pretty good confidence that a good buck will show up....even specific oak trees they like to hit first. The only question is will the buck show before I blow the area up....hoping to deploy cell cams on these as the price on them falls to my budget!
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Re: What is the likelihood the bucks just aren't around?

Unread postby Tennhunter3 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:47 am

It depends on the property if a good buck is around at all odds are good he will show up on a cam once. If something's not their find other areas. Most require long drives or are very hard access.

I find some properties with good sign but the area cams show are full of young bucks 1-2 year olds. Most of these get heavily hunted.
Hunters not respecting whitetail herds is usually to blaim for lack of mature animals. Some Wmas poor regulations lack of antler restrictions sure doesnt help. Cwd-Ehd -Cars can also play a role.

Most of our thriving wmas have antler restrictions in place such as Anderson Tully. It was hunted to near extinction about 15 years ago when no regulations existed it used to be a joke never hunt Tully today its turned around and has some of the best bucks in west tn.

Most of the properties I find with the biggest bucks have very very little buck sign.
( The areas with arm sized rubs with 2 year olds hunters get on quick and pound those areas into the ground for several years leaving behind a wasteland. Then say where'd all the deer go :roll:.
This happened to alot of areas around me.

Keep the cams out locate shooters and always be moving to other properties. It is a full time job locating shooters. Don't be fooled by the sign if it's full of sign odds are others hunt it heavily.

I do good to have 3-5 shooters found by season and hope others haven't found them. The areas with many young bucks if you go back a few years later same result why this is I'm not sure but I do see it alot.
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Re: What is the likelihood the bucks just aren't around?

Unread postby may21581 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:16 am

I'm shooting some of the bigger bucks on the properties I hunt. However I know there are bigger ones around. It just seems like the true monarchs are a whole new breed of animal and they act nothing like the rest of the herd. I found some good spots, ones that look like they should hold a giant, however the sign isn't popping up around there. I'm thinking I need to put some cameras in these spots and let them soak for awhile.
So far the biggest influence I can tell that dictates where you will find a mature buck and not the two or three year old bucks is pressure. Just seems like they know when to get out of dodge and back to their sanctuaries. The key isn't knowing where they are in the summer but where their true core areas are when the pressure is on. These small pockets can be a real chore to find. And sometimes there's not much sign to go with it.
I have several bucks I am starting to build a history with, ones I know where they like to go at certain times of the year. I'm hoping to capitalize on this next season. I'd guess them to be in the 160s but for the life of me have not pinned their core area down yet. Just for the heck of it how long does it take some of you to pin a core area down?
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Re: What is the likelihood the bucks just aren't around?

Unread postby Edcyclopedia » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:36 am

125" is a darn nice NH Buck...
Where was the buttbook guy from.
Buffalo County? Or North woods...
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Re: What is the likelihood the bucks just aren't around?

Unread postby VaBowKill5 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:56 am

I think there’s always the possibility of a big buck showing up in the rut however, I’m not gonna spend the rut hoping for a random. I run cameras in as many areas as possible(25+ between public and private) thru August and September). Of all these places I’ll usually only have a handful of bucks that will make P&Y and those are the places I key on. If there’s not a shooter on my camera or by some other means of inventory on a certain property...I’m not gonna hunt it. Sometimes they do show up so I’ll check periodically thru the season but like my uncle says. “If you wanna catch a 12 lb. bass don’t keep fishing ponds with only 6 pounders”.
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Re: What is the likelihood the bucks just aren't around?

Unread postby Country » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:13 pm

Id be happy to see a 6" buck on public around here.
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Re: What is the likelihood the bucks just aren't around?

Unread postby Cutter » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:14 pm

This is a good thread. Finding shooter bucks with limited sign or no sign is next level in my opinion. I get that your instincts develope to a point where you can just "know" and can't exactly explain why "x" is a monster's core area when it doesn't appear to be such. I would like to hear more about guys finding these areas based on limited sign. I always thought the 2 went hand in hand.
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Re: What is the likelihood the bucks just aren't around?

Unread postby DaveT1963 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:05 am

Cameras over mineral licks are about the best way I know to take inventory of what's in the local area
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Re: What is the likelihood the bucks just aren't around?

Unread postby may21581 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:14 am

DaveT1963 wrote:Cameras over mineral licks are about the best way I know to take inventory of what's in the local area


What time of year do you focus on for this strategy?
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