Can Mature Bucks learn to Reason?

[Dor]

Posted this on another site...thought it made for good conversation.

So I was chatting with THA4 after reading his link here. http://allen.bowhuntingroad.com/2011...aga-continues/

I told him that I thought for the most part that after a mature buck is bumped from his core bedroom (especially after being shot at and tracked into his bedroom and subsequently bumped from it)you may get one more chance to kill him there that year if your lucky.

He said that there had already been combines through his area and likened the intrusion to harvesting in terms of how a deer see it. His reason? Animals lack the ability to reason.

So, my question is just that, can animals reason or at a minimum can a Mature Buck learn to reason?

From wiki-
"Reason is a term that refers to the capacity human beings have to make sense of things, to establish and verify facts, and to change or justify practices, institutions and beliefs.[1] It is closely associated with such characteristically human activities as philosophy, science, language, mathematics and art, and is normally considered to be a definitive characteristic of human nature.[2] The concept of reason is sometimes referred to as rationality and sometimes as discursive reason, in opposition to "intuitive reason".[3]

Reason or "reasoning" is associated with thinking, cognition, and intellect. Reason, like habit or intuition, is one of the ways by which thinking comes from one idea to a related idea. For example, it is the means by which rational beings understand themselves to think about cause and effect, truth and falsehood, and what is good or bad.
In contrast to reason as an abstract noun, a reason is a consideration which explains or justifies some event, phenomenon or behaviour.[4] The ways in which human beings reason through argument are the subject of inquiries in the field of logic.

Reason is closely identified with the ability to self-consciously change beliefs, attitudes, traditions, and institutions, and therefore with the capacity for freedom and self-determination.[5]

Psychologists and cognitive scientists have attempted to study and explain how people reason, e.g. which cognitive and neural processes are engaged, and how cultural factors affect the inferences that people draw. The field of automated reasoning studies how reasoning may or may not be modeled computationally. Animal psychology considers the controversial question of whether animals can reason."
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[Stanley]

I would say no.

[headgear]

If they can reason I have no clue but I think they might have different levels of freaked out that you could apply to this situation. While a combine would have bumped him out of the area I don't think a deer would see that as much of a threat. Now a hunter trailing him and scenting up his bedding area would surely cause him to freak out at a high level.

Hunter/Predator = Very bad I have to find a new safe zone.
Combine = You woke me up from my nap and I am pizzed at you.

Not to say setting up on him and going back there won't work because you can never say never but I think you are lowering your odds.

[Dor]

While a combine would have bumped him out of the area I don't think a deer would see that as much of a threat. Now a hunter trailing him and scenting up his bedding area would surely cause him to freak out at a high level.

Hunter/Predator = Very bad I have to find a new safe zone.
Combine = You woke me up from my nap and I am pizzed at you.

Not to say setting up on him and going back there won't work because you can never say never but I think you are lowering your odds.

I agree whole heartedly.

[BigHunt]

I would say no.

x2

[dan]

I think the answer is YES... To some degree they can. It takes some reasoning ability to not come back to a spot where an encounter or a scent has spooked them... It also takes some reasoning abilitys to determine that human scent is bad. And one bad encounter with a human would mean nothing if they could not reason the fact that all humans are bad, but yet there reasoning ability tells them that squirels or geese are ok... Why do deer act different on managed farms than public land? Could it be that deer on public property have reasoning ability to determine that coming out in the open in daylight is a bad idea? If they could not reason they would not percieve a threat and would act the same as the managed deer...
Yes, I believe they can reason, remember, and think to some levels...

[BigHunt]

I think the answer is YES... To some degree they can. It takes some reasoning ability to not come back to a spot where an encounter or a scent has spooked them... It also takes some reasoning abilitys to determine that human scent is bad. And one bad encounter with a human would mean nothing if they could not reason the fact that all humans are bad, but yet there reasoning ability tells them that squirels or geese are ok... Why do deer act different on managed farms than public land? Could it be that deer on public property have reasoning ability to determine that coming out in the open in daylight is a bad idea? If they could not reason they would not percieve a threat and would act the same as the managed deer...
Yes, I believe they can reason, remember, and think to some levels...

i have to say yes and no

[Dewey]

I like to think they can reason to some degree. Just when I doubt one of their abilities I get burned by them. A mature buck or doe is a totally different animal and deserves ever bit of respect.

[ Post made via iPhone ]

[Zap]

They sure aint DUMB.......

[BigHunt]

They sure aint DUMB.......

i think your on to something marty

[rochester coops]

I was always taught that the biggest difference between people and animals is our ability to reason and animals cannot. Most of my other fellow followers of the Bible like to use this argument to support our being created 'higher' than the animals and that we are not "evolved".

So not to confuse anyone, I wholeheartedly agree, we are CREATED by God higher than the animals, and not evolved higher than the animals. However I DO believe animals DO REASON, though at a much lower capability than 'most' people.

On the other hand there seems to be lots of people who never learn to reason that what they are doing is killing them

[Dabowhunter]

Animals are capable of learned behaviours. Pavlovs dog learned that he would get fed right after he heard a bell. In the dogs mind the two things went together as one. The dog obviously had no idea why, only that it works out.
There is also imprinting, which is when a young animal learns from or mimics the behaviour of its parent. I believe most of what whitetails learn is from imprinting. Then as they mature they add to that knowledge base

[cornfedkiller]

Not really sure if deer can reason or not - I guess my answer would be maybe...

Not sure if you would consider this reasoning or not, but its very intelligent nonetheless-

[bbvideo=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbwRHIuXqMU[/bbvideo]

[bbvideo=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofjo26O0z_o&feature=related[/bbvideo]

[Dewey]

As far as learned behaviors and deer what about the ones that have learned to look for hunters in a tree? I have seen that myself many times. I had one mature doe that would come near a tree I was hunting and look up and bust me everytime. I finally moved to a different tree and she still went past the other one looking up there trying to see if I was in that tree. She had enough reasoning to remember that exact tree and always checked it out. I swear as the years go on deer are becoming more and more aware of hunters in trees and seem to look up much more than I can ever remember. In my early days I rarely got picked off in the tree............must have been the old TreeBark camo!!

[ Post made via iPhone ]

[PredatorTC]

I once learned in Philosophy class I belive that what makes one animal different form another is their ability to reason. Take Lady Bug for example. I belive a Lady bug has less ability to reason than a Deer? Could you pressure one particular Lady Bug to be afraid of humans? I dont think so. Maybe thats a bad example.
I have been hunting a buck this year that I had patterned during the summer. YOu could light him up any night you wanted in the same exact field. He would stand there and look at teh light. He seemed stupid and I thought for sure I could kill him. I figured he was so old that he was not with it just like humans get when they get old.
The season opens and BAM! hes gone. Hes not stupid. he knew when he had to do what he had to do and where he had to go. Ive been in the stand with this guy at 30 yards already and watched him come into his bedding area. Just the way he acted was completly different. He knew I could not kill him in the summer and would stand 30Yards for the truck adn just stare at the light.
He knew what he could get away with. I woud say he was reasoning