Let's talk does. Too many, not enough?

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Swampthing
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Re: Let's talk does. Too many, not enough?

Unread postby Swampthing » Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:50 am

Think I need to move. My area has low doe numbers and even lower buck numbers. This year it's soo low that I can only get 1 tag , PERIOD. Either 1 buck or 1 doe. Years ago we had to apply for a Doe tag' it was a lottery. When you bought your deer license it was good for 1 buck. And if you applied and were selected in the lottery you would gain tje option of killing either.

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Stanley
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Re: Let's talk does. Too many, not enough?

Unread postby Stanley » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:20 am

Swampthing wrote:Think I need to move. My area has low doe numbers and even lower buck numbers. This year it's soo low that I can only get 1 tag , PERIOD. Either 1 buck or 1 doe. Years ago we had to apply for a Doe tag' it was a lottery. When you bought your deer license it was good for 1 buck. And if you applied and were selected in the lottery you would gain tje option of killing either.

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Case in point you have to have good doe numbers to have good buck numbers. A lot of people are brainwashed into thinking you must kill does. Does control the buck herd.
You can fool some of the bucks, all of the time, and fool all of the bucks, some of the time, however you certainly can't fool all of the bucks, all of the time.
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headgear
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Re: Let's talk does. Too many, not enough?

Unread postby headgear » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:29 am

Stanley wrote:
Case in point you have to have good doe numbers to have good buck numbers.


Right on Stan, we used to have a decent deer population where I hunt (maybe 15-20 deer per square mile) but tags started getting passed out like candy. Now it just sucks (5-10 deer per square mile).
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Re: Let's talk does. Too many, not enough?

Unread postby GRFox » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:34 am

Stanley wrote:
GRFox wrote:I know we sure do with 60-80 deer per square mile, 16 bow hunters per square mile, and most of them shooting any spike or scrub that walks by we have a real doe problem, we were doing deer drives with bow only in December last year, your average push would produce a minimum of 20 does, and on a couple we had as many as 60 deer come by in 3 different waves all in about 8 minutes.

I will kill as many as I possibly can before November (unlimited doe tags).

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What area & state?


Westchester County New York, the imidiate suburbs of New York City.

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Re: Let's talk does. Too many, not enough?

Unread postby goldtip5575 » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:40 am

EAB UNITS herd control WI went way overboard on doe killing.Spots that you would see 50 antlerless in fields back in the 80s 90s some nights now have 6or 7 most sits.50 way to many but 6or 7 is to few.If the herd was fine at 50 why knock them back that low.There has to be a happy medium somewhere between 6 and 50.If they keep handing out free tags some people will just stack as many as they can.I think its almost worked in a negative way for the dnr that those that have deer left are so pissed at the lack of does they are shutting off access to hunting on thier property.
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Re: Let's talk does. Too many, not enough?

Unread postby GRFox » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:52 am

dan wrote:There are certainly a few areas that have to many does, but I believe most people take it over board and think that it does more damage than it actually does... Andreas illinois farm is a prime example. It has way to many deer and a very skewed ratio. I hunted there once for a weekend, I did not shoot anything but was amazed at the deer numbers. My 1st sit I saw about 200 deer including about 20 bucks. The vegitation is eaten as high as the deer can reach, and the population was out of control... Yet Andrea shot one of the top typicals in the state and a 217 inch non-typical off that farm that were both well over 200 pounds dressed.
So where is the negitive impact?
I also have noticed mature bucks tend to move earier when there is a large population... Its like the young ones up and moving give them a false sense of security... In populations with very low deer density I see deer become very nocturnal and daylight movement being a lot more confined to near the bedding areas...



200 deer in one sit that's insane....

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Re: Let's talk does. Too many, not enough?

Unread postby dan » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:31 am

200 deer in one sit that's insane....

It was insane... I had so many deer filter thru a funnel past me it was really hard to move with deer all around. They all went into a field that was surrounded by a large river and something spooked them and the stampede past my stand left a dust cloud... :lol:
They still have way to many deer there, and are still killing brutes.
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Re: Let's talk does. Too many, not enough?

Unread postby Stanley » Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:11 am

dan wrote:
200 deer in one sit that's insane....

It was insane... I had so many deer filter thru a funnel past me it was really hard to move with deer all around. They all went into a field that was surrounded by a large river and something spooked them and the stampede past my stand left a dust cloud... :lol:
They still have way to many deer there, and are still killing brutes.


There were two areas here that got completely decimated by over killing does. Scott county park(2,000 acres) and The Burlington Army Depot (20,000 acres). These both were big buck areas and turned into nothing. It took Burlington depot 10 years to get back to where it was worth hunting. Scott county park was turned into a golf course.
You can fool some of the bucks, all of the time, and fool all of the bucks, some of the time, however you certainly can't fool all of the bucks, all of the time.
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Re: Let's talk does. Too many, not enough?

Unread postby kenn1320 » Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:00 am

There are certainly a few areas that have to many does, but I believe most people take it over board and think that it does more damage than it actually does... Andreas illinois farm is a prime example. It has way to many deer and a very skewed ratio. I hunted there once for a weekend, I did not shoot anything but was amazed at the deer numbers. My 1st sit I saw about 200 deer including about 20 bucks. The vegitation is eaten as high as the deer can reach, and the population was out of control... Yet Andrea shot one of the top typicals in the state and a 217 inch non-typical off that farm that were both well over 200 pounds dressed.
So where is the negitive impact?


Dan there are plenty of negatives associated with over population. Study's have been done and are a mere google away. Its also has negative impacts on other animals that cannot reach browse. In areas of Michigan where the Elk are, there are few deer. Also in the late 80's Michigan hunters thought they had the cat by the tail. Deer numbers were awesome, nobody was complaining. Then we had the big crash where lots of deer died and they claim the natural vegetation has yet to recover. Because the land cannot support deer, the population is very slow to bounce back. This happened in the northern lower and the UP. Southern Michigan is now experiencing an over population situation. There was a study done in an enclosure in Michigan that showed the negative impact of over population on the deer. The study was to observe the "social" stress on the deer and the results showed a big affect on fawning recruitment. So to think more does = more bucks is not the case when your talking over population.
http://www.qdma.com/what-we-do/articles/herd-management/social-stress/

While it might be fun to hunt Andrea's place and see all those deer, it is a nightmare waiting to happen. If by some chance he gets disease in there, he will be seeing what you guys saw in the CWD areas. Isn't it better to do your part and keep the herd in check, rather then greedily harboring deer to the extent they over populate?
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Re: Let's talk does. Too many, not enough?

Unread postby Brad » Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:35 pm

I like seeing deer but too many does is worse than not enough I think. I like to shoot does, I wont be required to in my area but I will shoot at least one, maybe two this year. If you have too many you will go beyond the carrying capacity of the land and the entire herd health will start to decline as the food runs out. I dont know what the magical number is, I would say 25 or so deer per square mile would be about right.
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Re: Let's talk does. Too many, not enough?

Unread postby Schultzy » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:20 am

The area I hunt has a ton of doe's! Way to many for my liking. It's been 6 or 7 years since we've been able to shoot more then one antlerless deer In the zone I hunt. Rut sign before last year was pretty much non existent every year for the most part. Lot's of doe's and not many mature bucks equals no competition thus not many rubs/scrapes get made. I understand why Andrea's area wasn't effected, MANY more mature bucks In his area.

Last year and the year before mature buck numbers were up In the area I hunt. Rut sign was too. I wouldn't mind having lots of doe's around If I also had mature buck numbers like I've had the last 2 years. The last few years I'm seeing more and more doe's with out fawns. Too many doe's not getting bred.
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Re: Let's talk does. Too many, not enough?

Unread postby RaisedByWolves » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:56 pm

One of my spots in southern WI has lots of deer period. Bow hunting you usually see 10 does and 5 bucks every sit. Gun hunting I've seen as many as 86 deer in a day, 8 different bucks...Like Dan said I can't say that the abundance of does is hurting the buck population, there are definantly some magnums walking around and lots of 1.5yo's. Since EAB i normally see about 40 a day gun season....curious to see if the wolves we saw last year put a dent in the local heard. Still plan on whacking a couple does off the property, but we'll see
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Re: Let's talk does. Too many, not enough?

Unread postby kenn1320 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:04 pm

Last year and the year before mature buck numbers were up In the area I hunt. Rut sign was too. I wouldn't mind having lots of doe's around If I also had mature buck numbers like I've had the last 2 years. The last few years I'm seeing more and more doe's with out fawns. Too many doe's not getting bred.


If you have mature bucks, you have lots of bucks that make up all age groups. Your does with no fawns are not the result of not being bred. Its likely they are young does and are not getting the best fawning areas. Plus lots of does means many don't get bred on their first cycle. Come spring when the bulk of fawns hits the ground, it overwhelms the predators and more survive. Its the does that get bred late that loose more fawns to predation. Plus when your not in the best fawning area, your more likely to loose your fawn to predation. Also as was mentioned in that article I posted, lots of deer equals social stress and that doesn't help your fawn recruitment either.
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Re: Let's talk does. Too many, not enough?

Unread postby Schultzy » Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:51 pm

kenn1320 wrote:[glow=red]If you have mature bucks, you have lots of bucks that make up all age groups.[/glow] Your does with no fawns are not the result of not being bred. Its likely they are young does and are not getting the best fawning areas. Plus lots of does means many don't get bred on their first cycle. Come spring when the bulk of fawns hits the ground, it overwhelms the predators and more survive. Its the does that get bred late that loose more fawns to predation. Plus when your not in the best fawning area, your more likely to loose your fawn to predation. Also as was mentioned in that article I posted, lots of deer equals social stress and that doesn't help your fawn recruitment either.
Agree with the colored part. Never said I didn't Kenn. Just the last 2 years has been good (mature buck numbers). I still stand by what I say when I said my rut sign was low prior to the last 2 years being It lacked mature bucks. Less competition, less frustration for the bucks. I know this woods well, been hunting It 20 years. Years ago when we had good buck numbers this woods would get tore up just like It did the last 2 years. You may be on to something too about the doe's getting bred late and then the fawns getting nipped by predators after the majority of the fawns have already been born. Good Info there!


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