Opening a can of Worms....

[Uncle Lou]

Why do we even need a gun season? There is about 1.5-2 months of bow season before it, right? How the heck are there any deer left for gun season?

I love hunting, and I love the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation mission statement - Hunting is Conservation.

[Drich]

yep. With no one wanting a gun season should just do away with it and have one long deer season with bows and crossbows only. Guns are evil and archery is more important anyways.

[Dewey]

[Boogieman1]

Good question. Not sure I have an answer but definitely have an opinion. My guess is it’s cause gun season is the heritage of American deer hunting. Long before folks fought for a season for bows and arrows there was a short gun season. I believe the shortness of the season was due to the ease of success. Suspect that’s the only reason we don’t have rifles in archery season.

Conservation is hunting but not at a throw caution to wind and just go with reasoning. I also don’t believe all killing is considered hunting but that’s a different topic. I just want someone to tell me what was the need to authorize xbows to regular hunters? I mean before they came on the seen hunter participation was high, herd balance good. So what exactly was the problem we felt like we needed a xbow?

My numbers might be off a lil cause I’m going from memory here but I should be close. But big corporate tycoons started lobbying for everyday xbow use in the late 90s. It took til 2002 for 2 or 3 states to cave. Here we are 20 years later and still only 24 states has said to heck with it go for it. Many of these states only allow during gun season or a special season. I mean literally billions has been spent lobbying to get these things in and the majority of states still say no. I mean if they did all these great things and is just another tool why is it so difficult to get them included? Xbow hunters outnumber every other group except gun so it’s not like your ticking off the majority of guys who hunt during archery. I speculate there is a pretty good reason why boat loads of cash still can’t get them included.

[Drich]

Good question. Not sure I have an answer but definitely have an opinion. My guess is it’s cause gun season is the heritage of American deer hunting. Long before folks fought for a season for bows and arrows there was a short gun season. I believe the shortness of the season was due to the ease of success. Suspect that’s the only reason we don’t have rifles in archery season.

Conservation is hunting but not at a throw caution to wind and just go with reasoning. I also don’t believe all killing is considered hunting but that’s a different topic. I just want someone to tell me what was the need to authorize xbows to regular hunters? I mean before they came on the seen hunter participation was high, herd balance good. So what exactly was the problem we felt like we needed a xbow?

My numbers might be off a lil cause I’m going from memory here but I should be close. But big corporate tycoons started lobbying for everyday xbow use in the late 90s. It took til 2002 for 2 or 3 states to cave. Here we are 20 years later and still only 24 states has said to heck with it go for it. Many of these states only allow during gun season or a special season. I mean literally billions has been spent lobbying to get these things in and the majority of states still say no. I mean if they did all these great things and is just another tool why is it so difficult to get them included? Xbow hunters outnumber every other group except gun so it’s not like your ticking off the majority of guys who hunt during archery. I speculate there is a pretty good reason why boat loads of cash still can’t get them included.

The short firearms season is to limit hunter/non-hunter conflicts. People get tired of many weeks of shotgun deer drives.

Crossbow's aren't needed. Archery season isn't needed. Archery season is only a thing because of politics, people wanted it. If denying crossbows because they simply aren't needed is a good enough reason, then archery may be the next with the same fate.

[DaveT1963]

Not all states have a short firearm season. We have 2 months of it and 1 month of bow only.

[Boogieman1]

Good question. Not sure I have an answer but definitely have an opinion. My guess is it’s cause gun season is the heritage of American deer hunting. Long before folks fought for a season for bows and arrows there was a short gun season. I believe the shortness of the season was due to the ease of success. Suspect that’s the only reason we don’t have rifles in archery season.

Conservation is hunting but not at a throw caution to wind and just go with reasoning. I also don’t believe all killing is considered hunting but that’s a different topic. I just want someone to tell me what was the need to authorize xbows to regular hunters? I mean before they came on the seen hunter participation was high, herd balance good. So what exactly was the problem we felt like we needed a xbow?

My numbers might be off a lil cause I’m going from memory here but I should be close. But big corporate tycoons started lobbying for everyday xbow use in the late 90s. It took til 2002 for 2 or 3 states to cave. Here we are 20 years later and still only 24 states has said to heck with it go for it. Many of these states only allow during gun season or a special season. I mean literally billions has been spent lobbying to get these things in and the majority of states still say no. I mean if they did all these great things and is just another tool why is it so difficult to get them included? Xbow hunters outnumber every other group except gun so it’s not like your ticking off the majority of guys who hunt during archery. I speculate there is a pretty good reason why boat loads of cash still can’t get them included.

The short firearms season is to limit hunter/non-hunter conflicts. People get tired of many weeks of shotgun deer drives.

Crossbow's aren't needed. Archery season isn't needed. Archery season is only a thing because of politics, people wanted it. If denying crossbows because they simply aren't needed is a good enough reason, then archery may be the next with the same fate.

Just asking questions here and am passed the point of arguing. But still enjoy a good conversation. My state doesn’t have a shotgun season. I believe most states don’t. Hard to say rifle season is about limiting hunter conflict when it was the only way to hunt deer for decades. My opinion is lobbying shotguns, modern muzzle loaders etc…. was just manufactures way of making hunters buy a bunch of crap to keep on hunting. Modern muzzle loaders have thumbhole stocks, high dollar optics, and the ability to shoot 300 yards. If they are not careful they will reinvent the military sniper rifle.

But let’s talk archery. Wasn’t always an archery season infact bow hunters fought for it. Not by pushing millions into law makers pockets but proposing something that makes sense. The point of archery season was to purposely handicap one’s self for the challenge. The people who fought for it knew they would never have enough success to control the population. So they worked hand in hand with the current gun season.

I believe there is a big difference between bowhunter and hunter. While both are great in my opinion. There are some big differences. My definition of bowhunter is someone who only hunts with a bow. No matter how down in the count they get they stick with bows and arrows. A hunter on the other hand is perfectly happy hunting by any means legally necessary. Doesn’t matter to them if it’s a bow, rifle, or anything inbetween. I believe the problem between Bowhunters and hunters is the fact hunters don’t care about archery they simply move on to the next weapon season. Bowhunters get tired of their season being the one that gets attact. It’s just a tough sell for anything new in rifle season. I mean it’s dang near impossible to get easier than a rifle. So manufacturers lobby to include non archery products into archery. This attracts those only looking for a easy way to extend their season. Atleast imo.

[tim]

I see I haven’t missed a thing since not logging in or posting for a while……..

[hcooper84]

If deer herds are still manageable with the weapons that are allowed then I feel it’s hard to argue removing any said approved weapon.

If DNRs are misrepresenting deer herd numbers that’s a different problem. But overall if the herd can stay healthy then there is no real argument, outside of feelings or opinions, for removing crossbows.

[Swedishbowhunter]

If deer herds are still manageable with the weapons that are allowed then I feel it’s hard to argue removing any said approved weapon.

If DNRs are misrepresenting deer herd numbers that’s a different problem. But overall if the herd can stay healthy then there is no real argument, outside of feelings or opinions, for removing crossbows.

How about the argument that xbows have apparently divided us as a group?

[hcooper84]

If deer herds are still manageable with the weapons that are allowed then I feel it’s hard to argue removing any said approved weapon.

If DNRs are misrepresenting deer herd numbers that’s a different problem. But overall if the herd can stay healthy then there is no real argument, outside of feelings or opinions, for removing crossbows.

How about the argument that xbows have apparently divided us as a group?

I feel this argument is based on a lot of assumed data. Since crossbows increase success rate then some people assume it is hurting deer numbers but that may be a false statement. Deer numbers may actually be quite successful still with crossbow hunters in the mix. Or they could be worse. I am not for sure. A lot of the comments in this thread have been based on a lot of assumptions instead of actually looking up the facts of it. To that, I am not saying I know the facts I am saying people need to do more due diligence to arrive at conclusions.

[adrenalin]

In Wisconsin the crossbow being allowed in bow season was supposed to by a trial run and monitored to see if it was to effective of a weapon. If so it is supposed to be removed. That was the proposed plan if anyone remembers. Now it proved itself to be just that. So why is anyone upset if it gets removed? It was never intended to be here to stay?? I just can't get on board with the mentality of I support it just because it is legal. I hear that so often on here and just cant grasp it... The Dnr has issued unlimited doe tags and CWD slaughter here for years. The deer herd in Wisconsin has suffered severely for it. People don't have self control and I blame hunters for destroying the deer herd. Just because the DNR gives out tags doesn't mean you have to fill them. This is the reason for hunter numbers falling here. Deer camps have just about dissolved in northern Wisconsin because of this. No different with the crossbow. I know at least a dozen people who either switched to crossbow, or gun hunters who never bow hunted before but now use a crossbow during bow season. All of them have the same mindset. It's way easier and once sighted in I don't have to practice. Bow season was always set up as a handicap over a rifle season and the reason for a different season, but just like the democrats the new way of the world is change everything to make it easier and more fair for everyone. Things can't continue as they were, everything needs to be softened and catered to the people who want their special exceptions. Wisconsins 1st bow season deer was killed in 1934. Here is some good info.

https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/WildlifeHabita ... ar_sum.pdf

[stash59]

In Wisconsin the crossbow being allowed in bow season was supposed to by a trial run and monitored to see if it was to effective of a weapon. If so it is supposed to be removed. That was the proposed plan if anyone remembers. Now it proved itself to be just that. So why is anyone upset if it gets removed? It was never intended to be here to stay?? I just can't get on board with the mentality of I support it just because it is legal. I hear that so often on here and just cant grasp it... The Dnr has issued unlimited doe tags and CWD slaughter here for years. The deer herd in Wisconsin has suffered severely for it. People don't have self control and I blame hunters for destroying the deer herd. Just because the DNR gives out tags doesn't mean you have to fill them. This is the reason for hunter numbers falling here. Deer camps have just about dissolved in northern Wisconsin because of this. No different with the crossbow. I know at least a dozen people who either switched to crossbow, or gun hunters who never bow hunted before but now use a crossbow during bow season. All of them have the same mindset. It's way easier and once sighted in I don't have to practice. Bow season was always set up as a handicap over a rifle season and the reason for a different season, but just like the democrats the new way of the world is change everything to make it easier and more fair for everyone. Things can't continue as they were, everything needs to be softened and catered to the people who want their special exceptions. Wisconsins 1st bow season deer was killed in 1934. Here is some good info.

https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/WildlifeHabita ... ar_sum.pdf

So by your own words xbows were supposed to go if they proved too effective of a weapon! And because you claim to know know several people that never bought a archery license before xbows were legalized for anyone! That xbows have increased the archery kill numbers dramatically! Too effective of a weapon!!!

Yet when a person actually goes to the data in the link you provided! What does it actually show?

In the last year, 2013, that xbows were only allowed for use by over 65 & the disabled! 87,658 total deer were killed during archery season! (A high of 116.010 was reached in 2007! With limited xbow use by the disabled and elderly!)

The next year, 2014! When any body could choose to use a crossbow!! And this includes the xbow kills! The total number of deer killed dropped to 81,701! With 26,891 being xbow kills!

And even though by 2018! Xbow bow kills rose to 47,224! The total number of archery kills was 87,629! That's still 29 less deer killed. Then were killed in 2013! The last year that xbows were limited by who could shoot them!

What am I missing? I used my calculator so am pretty confident my math is correct! Xbows have had zero, that's 0 effect on the total number of deer killed in the state of WI!!!!! That's from the chart in the link you provided! Check my math if you must!

Something else that can be noted from these charts is!! In 2013 the total number of gun kills was 255,003! It dropped to the lowest number for the 6 year period, from 2013 to 2018! In 2014, the same year xbows were allowed, to 222,588! (In fact one has to go clear back to the year1983, 197,600. To find a lesser total then 2014! By the way in 1883 archers killed a total of 32,876 deer! Less then half of the 2013 totals!) But has increased each year since 2013 to a total of 247,614 in 2018! Why the increase? Because more tags have been given out? Because the deer herd got larger? I can't answer that! But I do agree too many antlerless tags are being given out! In most deer management zones/counties!!! But you can no way no how, blame xbow hunters for these higher deer kill total numbers!!

As far as catering to people that want special seasons for special weapons! Vertical bows, compounds, tradbows and primitive bows are the most special weapons out there! Because of their inefficiency! And don't get me wrong! I love shooting vertical bows! Despite my physical limitations. I still have on my bucket list! Killing a buck with a bow, arrows and broadhead that I made myself!!! So am not against vertical bows by any means!!!!

Think about it!!!! Why did bowhunters have to fight to get a season? Way back when! Because compared to a firearm. They are a highly inefficient weapon! The 1st weapons anti's attack. Are bows and arrows! Because in the anti's eyes! Every animal shot with an arrow suffers great pain and discomfort! They never die instantly! Which is cruel in an anti's eyes!!! Heck the whole reason the Ashby reports even exist! Was because the governments in Africa! Had to prove that archery equipment could be recognized as a humane, lethal weapon that caused minimal suffering to the animals when shot with a broadhead tipped arrow!!!! So they could start offering archery tags to the numerous archers. That very much wanted to hunt game with archery equipment! In those countries!

One thing all of this data seems to show is! With the increase in xbow use during archery season! And archery license sales not increasing by any significant amount! You xbow haters are in a lessening minority! And maybe why your numbers are shrinking! Is because you don't have any facts to back up your claims! So hunters are ignoring you! If you really and truthfully believe xbows take away from the true meaning behind the seasons sought after by our modern bowhunting forefathers! Then you need recognize xbows haven't had any detrimental effect on the deer herd! Including deer populations and harvest numbers! And start concentrating on the history, heritage and yes the romance! Of why shooting what you consider is "pure" archery while hunting!!! Should be taken up instead!!

[wolverinebuckman]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archery

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/archery

Thanks for the link, Wikipedia certainly does clarify it in the descriptions it gives below:
Archery is the sport, practice, or skill of using a bow to shoot arrows.

Also from the link, regarding equipment:
While there is great variety in the construction details of bows (both historic and modern), all bows consist of a string attached to elastic limbs that store mechanical energy imparted by the user drawing the string. Bows may be broadly split into two categories: those drawn by pulling the string directly and those that use a mechanism to pull the string.

Compound bows are designed to reduce the force required to hold the string at full draw, hence allowing the archer more time to aim with less muscular stress. Most compound designs use cams or elliptical wheels on the ends of the limbs to achieve this.

Mechanically drawn bows typically have a stock or other mounting, such as the crossbow. Crossbows typically have shorter draw lengths compared to compound bows. Because of this, heavier draw weights are required to achieve the same energy transfer to the arrow. These mechanically drawn bows also have devices to hold the tension when the bow is fully drawn. They are not limited by the strength of a single archer...


So, technically, a crossbow is archery equipment, according to this definition
Not quite sure why there's all this stress about anyone using any piece of archery equipment during the archery season.

I've never shot a crossbow, they kind of look like fun! Maybe someday, if I can't draw back my compound any longer. I definitely won't give up hunting because I can't shoot a bow, it's much bigger than that for me.

[john1984]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archery

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/archery

Thanks for the link, Wikipedia certainly does clarify it in the descriptions it gives below:
Archery is the sport, practice, or skill of using a bow to shoot arrows.

Also from the link, regarding equipment:
While there is great variety in the construction details of bows (both historic and modern), all bows consist of a string attached to elastic limbs that store mechanical energy imparted by the user drawing the string. Bows may be broadly split into two categories: those drawn by pulling the string directly and those that use a mechanism to pull the string.

Compound bows are designed to reduce the force required to hold the string at full draw, hence allowing the archer more time to aim with less muscular stress. Most compound designs use cams or elliptical wheels on the ends of the limbs to achieve this.

Mechanically drawn bows typically have a stock or other mounting, such as the crossbow. Crossbows typically have shorter draw lengths compared to compound bows. Because of this, heavier draw weights are required to achieve the same energy transfer to the arrow. These mechanically drawn bows also have devices to hold the tension when the bow is fully drawn. They are not limited by the strength of a single archer...


So, technically, a crossbow is archery equipment, according to this definition
Not quite sure why there's all this stress about anyone using any piece of archery equipment during the archery season.

I've never shot a crossbow, they kind of look like fun! Maybe someday, if I can't draw back my compound any longer. I definitely won't give up hunting because I can't shoot a bow, it's much bigger than that for me.

And crossbows have been around for like 3,000 years!

A semi- automatic rifle and a crossbow are not the same thing