Lake Thermals

Discuss deer hunting tactics, Deer behavior. Post your Hunting Stories, Pictures, and Questions/Answers.
  • Advertisement

HB Store


User avatar
Boogieman1
500 Club
Posts: 6593
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:18 pm
Status: Offline

Re: Lake Thermals

Unread postby Boogieman1 » Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:49 am

KRONIIK wrote:
Uncle Lou wrote:
hunting_dad wrote:
Uncle Lou wrote:So here is what happens. Cold lake air drops warmer land thermals, colder land air drops warmer lake thermals. Got that, now a NW wind in a SE trending valley will ramp it up the slope with less than a 5 mph wind, with over a 10 mph wind its the opposite. Now do you have that? Then just remember when you flush a toilet in the northern hemisphere that it swirls counterclockwise, and in the southern hemisphere it is the opposite. Got it? So if you are hunting in the Andes Mountains with a NW wind in a SE trending valley in October, remember the seasons are switched in the southern hemisphere, with a less than 5 mph wind you need to What? That's right use your milkweed or your magic suit. And there you have it.


:lol:


Glad you found the humor in that, was hoping boogie was going to come bail me out, but you did. So that works.
Merry Christmas everyone


Waiting for Boogieman to bail you out of a thread like this would be about like waiting for a known arsonist to "help you manage" a controlled burn on a dry prairie...

Kroniik the key to a successful controlled burn involves finding a neighbor you can’t stand, picking a windy day under dry conditions, and wise use of diesel. From there things have a way of working themselves out :lol:


Life is hard; It’s even harder if you are stupid.
-John Wayne-
User avatar
DaveT1963
500 Club
Posts: 5196
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:27 am
Location: South
Status: Offline

Re: Lake Thermals

Unread postby DaveT1963 » Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:56 am

Uncle Lou wrote:
DaveT1963 wrote:
Brad wrote:
DaveT1963 wrote:
Brad wrote:
DaveT1963 wrote:Wind structure and shade will vastly affect thermals on a large body of water such as a lake. You can use that to your advantage by paying attention to Steep bluffs, heavy forests, etc.....

Everybody wants a simple formula for thermals but in reality thermals don't always go straight up and straight down there's far more to it than that.


I'm certainly not looking for a simple formula, just looking for others insight on how the addition of a lake thats around 94 acres in the close proximity to some rolling hill points would likely effect the thermals compared to the same terrain without the lake.


I hunt lakes a lot down south. Shade is a huge factor in a lot of cases.


would you be willing to elaborate? I'm not really sure what you mean by that. are you talking about shade on the water making the water cooler in that area? if so, how are you seeing that effect thermals?


https://youtu.be/4pBGIlX0iv4


Dave, what an awesome hunt breakdown with great detail. When I made my smart comment last night, it was in no way to diminish the great breakdown that you presented. It was just in general to poke a little fun at how many things can be going on in specific situation.

I just find this topic - Wind, thermals, topography, etc... To be very difficult to comprehend. I just know things swirl and do what they do, and for me trying to analyze and guess what the wind is going to do in a specific set up is very hard. What needs to be done, is exactly what you did. You put in some time, figured it out, and were successful. Well Done :clap: :clap:


Lol didn't take any offence thought it was funny. God help us if we can't have fun especially when talking about something as insignificant in the scheme of things like thermal winds....... Now if we're talking scent control that's a horse of another color :). Merry Christmas Lou.
User avatar
Uncle Lou
Moderator
Posts: 10308
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:32 pm
Location: Holly, MI
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Lake Thermals

Unread postby Uncle Lou » Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:57 am

DaveT1963 wrote:
Lol didn't take any offence thought it was funny. God help us if we can't have fun especially when talking about something as insignificant in the scheme of things like thermal winds....... Now if we're talking scent control that's a horse of another color :). Merry Christmas Lou.


Merry Christmas to you as well Dave, and couldn't agree more.
Silence Your Gear with Stealth Strips®
http://www.stealthoutdoors.com
User avatar
Uncle Lou
Moderator
Posts: 10308
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:32 pm
Location: Holly, MI
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Lake Thermals

Unread postby Uncle Lou » Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:05 am

the hardest part of the lake thermal effect is trying to figure out which mass is warmer, the land or the lake. As thermals rise they pull from the other, and guessing opposite as they sink. So it can get complicated in fall. That is why I posted the humorous anecdote, as it explodes my little brain. Swirls are hard enough to figure out, then you throw thermals, light wind vs heavy wind, then lake temps vs land temps it can get to overload. That "outdated" little milkweed trick works wonders to help figure out a specific locale.
Silence Your Gear with Stealth Strips®
http://www.stealthoutdoors.com
User avatar
Uncle Lou
Moderator
Posts: 10308
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:32 pm
Location: Holly, MI
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Lake Thermals

Unread postby Uncle Lou » Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:13 am

I'll retell an old story.

The first time I met the Big Buck Serial Killer in person was at the Lansing, MI Deer & Turkey expo in I think March 2009. He and arrowbender, among others were locked into a great discussion on scent control. One of the first things I said to dan, was are your fingers sore? I meant from typing on that thread.

Anyway, we got talking and I said to dan, here is what I don't get. When I am on stand, almost every time the the wind at some point will hit me in the right ear, the back of the neck, the nose, then my left ear. How the heck can you play the wind. He looked at me and said you need to listen better, or something like that, he really was not a jerk about it at all, he just realized that I wasn't paying close enough attention to his point. He basically said, as I won't put words in his mouth, that is why you need to drop milk weed to see what is really going on.

It is great to talk about wind, and learn from others and guess what will happen. But only experience of seeing wind, through the milk weed, will teach us all what we seek.
Silence Your Gear with Stealth Strips®
http://www.stealthoutdoors.com
User avatar
Boogieman1
500 Club
Posts: 6593
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:18 pm
Status: Offline

Re: Lake Thermals

Unread postby Boogieman1 » Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:33 am

Uncle Lou wrote:the hardest part of the lake thermal effect is trying to figure out which mass is warmer, the land or the lake. As thermals rise they pull from the other, and guessing opposite as they sink. So it can get complicated in fall. That is why I posted the humorous anecdote, as it explodes my little brain. Swirls are hard enough to figure out, then you throw thermals, light wind vs heavy wind, then lake temps vs land temps it can get to overload. That "outdated" little milkweed trick works wonders to help figure out a specific locale.

Since you tossed the life raft I will offer my opinion. There’s no 2 days that are the same. Slight variances are at play. What is predicted is conditions where thermals are a player and conditions they are not even a factor. For myself this makes things highly predictable. The thing with hunters is we know we need time in the stand to capitalize. When you have multiple variances like thermal getting pulled one direction, wind gusts going another, and your ground scent yet another. Well you just screwed 75% of the pie. In a sweet set up like what was provided I line em and give myself 75% of deer that don’t have a clue and can’t get to my air currents. The devil comes when the time is right but u don’t have the conditions. That’s when u gotta risk it to get the biscuit
Life is hard; It’s even harder if you are stupid.
-John Wayne-
KRONIIK
500 Club
Posts: 2576
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 11:09 am
Status: Offline

Re: Lake Thermals

Unread postby KRONIIK » Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:41 am

Boogieman1 wrote:
KRONIIK wrote:
Uncle Lou wrote:
hunting_dad wrote:
Uncle Lou wrote:So here is what happens. Cold lake air drops warmer land thermals, colder land air drops warmer lake thermals. Got that, now a NW wind in a SE trending valley will ramp it up the slope with less than a 5 mph wind, with over a 10 mph wind its the opposite. Now do you have that? Then just remember when you flush a toilet in the northern hemisphere that it swirls counterclockwise, and in the southern hemisphere it is the opposite. Got it? So if you are hunting in the Andes Mountains with a NW wind in a SE trending valley in October, remember the seasons are switched in the southern hemisphere, with a less than 5 mph wind you need to What? That's right use your milkweed or your magic suit. And there you have it.


:lol:


Glad you found the humor in that, was hoping boogie was going to come bail me out, but you did. So that works.
Merry Christmas everyone


Waiting for Boogieman to bail you out of a thread like this would be about like waiting for a known arsonist to "help you manage" a controlled burn on a dry prairie...

Kroniik the key to a successful controlled burn involves finding a neighbor you can’t stand, picking a windy day under dry conditions, and wise use of diesel. From there things have a way of working themselves out :lol:


My brother tried something like that once, but that was before he learned how to use milkweed and to read thermals.
Mom's woods has grown back pretty nicely, but it took a few years!
User avatar
DaveT1963
500 Club
Posts: 5196
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:27 am
Location: South
Status: Offline

Re: Lake Thermals

Unread postby DaveT1963 » Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:03 am

Boogieman1 wrote:
Uncle Lou wrote:the hardest part of the lake thermal effect is trying to figure out which mass is warmer, the land or the lake. As thermals rise they pull from the other, and guessing opposite as they sink. So it can get complicated in fall. That is why I posted the humorous anecdote, as it explodes my little brain. Swirls are hard enough to figure out, then you throw thermals, light wind vs heavy wind, then lake temps vs land temps it can get to overload. That "outdated" little milkweed trick works wonders to help figure out a specific locale.

Since you tossed the life raft I will offer my opinion. There’s no 2 days that are the same. Slight variances are at play. What is predicted is conditions where thermals are a player and conditions they are not even a factor. For myself this makes things highly predictable. The thing with hunters is we know we need time in the stand to capitalize. When you have multiple variances like thermal getting pulled one direction, wind gusts going another, and your ground scent yet another. Well you just screwed 75% of the pie. In a sweet set up like what was provided I line em and give myself 75% of deer that don’t have a clue and can’t get to my air currents. The devil comes when the time is right but u don’t have the conditions. That’s when u gotta risk it to get the biscuit


I Disagree. Conditions change, granted. But thermals follow given laws of physics and there are definate patterns. Shade on a lake is pretty dang consistent until leaf drop. Once you realize how strong a wind it takes to "overcome" thermals it ain't rocket science. The weakest denominator in figuring out thermals is IMO, our ability to truly pay attention and think through them... it's far easier to just throw a sit at a location and take our chances.... And that pays off a lot of times so many of us don't stop to find the why.

However, thermals are understandable, and If we commit to asking why/how we can start seeing patterns more and more. And yes, there is always anomalies, but there is also alot of consistencies. Nothing replaces sitting and seeing what they do..... So I'll wrap up by saying if we sit in a location, and thermals bust us, well that is all part of the game. However, if we continue to sit in the same location (or a similar set up) under the same exact conditions, and we continue to get busted, than at some point we have to, or we should, conclude that it is because we haven't used our brain to figure out what was happening and how we can go about trying something different. And that learning continues everytime we step into the woods.... Or at least it will for those that truly want to understand and manipulate thermals.
User avatar
Boogieman1
500 Club
Posts: 6593
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:18 pm
Status: Offline

Re: Lake Thermals

Unread postby Boogieman1 » Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:10 am

DaveT1963 wrote:
Boogieman1 wrote:
Uncle Lou wrote:the hardest part of the lake thermal effect is trying to figure out which mass is warmer, the land or the lake. As thermals rise they pull from the other, and guessing opposite as they sink. So it can get complicated in fall. That is why I posted the humorous anecdote, as it explodes my little brain. Swirls are hard enough to figure out, then you throw thermals, light wind vs heavy wind, then lake temps vs land temps it can get to overload. That "outdated" little milkweed trick works wonders to help figure out a specific locale.

Since you tossed the life raft I will offer my opinion. There’s no 2 days that are the same. Slight variances are at play. What is predicted is conditions where thermals are a player and conditions they are not even a factor. For myself this makes things highly predictable. The thing with hunters is we know we need time in the stand to capitalize. When you have multiple variances like thermal getting pulled one direction, wind gusts going another, and your ground scent yet another. Well you just screwed 75% of the pie. In a sweet set up like what was provided I line em and give myself 75% of deer that don’t have a clue and can’t get to my air currents. The devil comes when the time is right but u don’t have the conditions. That’s when u gotta risk it to get the biscuit


I Disagree. Conditions change, granted. But thermals follow given laws of physics and there are definate patterns. Shade on a lake is pretty dang consistent until leaf drop. Once you realize how strong a wind it takes to "overcome" thermals it ain't rocket science. The weakest denominator in figuring out thermals is IMO, our ability to truly pay attention and think through them... it's far easier to just throw a sit at a location and take our chances.... And that pays off a lot of times so many of us don't stop to find the why.

However, thermals are understandable, and If we commit to asking why/how we can start seeing patterns more and more. And yes, there is always anomalies, but there is also alot of consistencies. Nothing replaces sitting and seeing what they do..... So I'll wrap up by saying if we sit in a location, and thermals bust us, well that is all part of the game. However, if we continue to sit in the same location (or a similar set up) under the same exact conditions, and we continue to get busted, than at some point we have to, or we should, conclude that it is because we haven't used our brain to figure out what was happening and how we can go about trying something different. And that learning continues everytime we step into the woods.... Or at least it will for those that truly want to understand and manipulate thermals.

I agree with everything you say. Only difference I was speaking of is conditions that cause thermals to occur or not occur are easily predictable based on cloud cover and wind speed. You give me a spot like the op I will hold out for conditions that remove the thermal factor until time is getting low on the clock.
Life is hard; It’s even harder if you are stupid.
-John Wayne-
User avatar
DaveT1963
500 Club
Posts: 5196
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:27 am
Location: South
Status: Offline

Re: Lake Thermals

Unread postby DaveT1963 » Sat Dec 25, 2021 12:37 pm

Boogieman1 wrote:
DaveT1963 wrote:
Boogieman1 wrote:
Uncle Lou wrote:the hardest part of the lake thermal effect is trying to figure out which mass is warmer, the land or the lake. As thermals rise they pull from the other, and guessing opposite as they sink. So it can get complicated in fall. That is why I posted the humorous anecdote, as it explodes my little brain. Swirls are hard enough to figure out, then you throw thermals, light wind vs heavy wind, then lake temps vs land temps it can get to overload. That "outdated" little milkweed trick works wonders to help figure out a specific locale.

Since you tossed the life raft I will offer my opinion. There’s no 2 days that are the same. Slight variances are at play. What is predicted is conditions where thermals are a player and conditions they are not even a factor. For myself this makes things highly predictable. The thing with hunters is we know we need time in the stand to capitalize. When you have multiple variances like thermal getting pulled one direction, wind gusts going another, and your ground scent yet another. Well you just screwed 75% of the pie. In a sweet set up like what was provided I line em and give myself 75% of deer that don’t have a clue and can’t get to my air currents. The devil comes when the time is right but u don’t have the conditions. That’s when u gotta risk it to get the biscuit


I Disagree. Conditions change, granted. But thermals follow given laws of physics and there are definate patterns. Shade on a lake is pretty dang consistent until leaf drop. Once you realize how strong a wind it takes to "overcome" thermals it ain't rocket science. The weakest denominator in figuring out thermals is IMO, our ability to truly pay attention and think through them... it's far easier to just throw a sit at a location and take our chances.... And that pays off a lot of times so many of us don't stop to find the why.

However, thermals are understandable, and If we commit to asking why/how we can start seeing patterns more and more. And yes, there is always anomalies, but there is also alot of consistencies. Nothing replaces sitting and seeing what they do..... So I'll wrap up by saying if we sit in a location, and thermals bust us, well that is all part of the game. However, if we continue to sit in the same location (or a similar set up) under the same exact conditions, and we continue to get busted, than at some point we have to, or we should, conclude that it is because we haven't used our brain to figure out what was happening and how we can go about trying something different. And that learning continues everytime we step into the woods.... Or at least it will for those that truly want to understand and manipulate thermals.

I agree with everything you say. Only difference I was speaking of is conditions that cause thermals to occur or not occur are easily predictable based on cloud cover and wind speed. You give me a spot like the op I will hold out for conditions that remove the thermal factor until time is getting low on the clock.


Copy and concur, there are spots that's best to just walk away, or wait for "the right" conditions. IME Mature bucks just seem to trust thermals more than most.... I believe this is what AM hunting is better, far easier to predict rising thermals IMO.
User avatar
Brad
500 Club
Posts: 643
Joined: Tue May 26, 2020 2:06 pm
Status: Offline

Re: Lake Thermals

Unread postby Brad » Sun Dec 26, 2021 11:56 am

Uncle Lou wrote:the hardest part of the lake thermal effect is trying to figure out which mass is warmer, the land or the lake. As thermals rise they pull from the other, and guessing opposite as they sink. So it can get complicated in fall. That is why I posted the humorous anecdote, as it explodes my little brain. Swirls are hard enough to figure out, then you throw thermals, light wind vs heavy wind, then lake temps vs land temps it can get to overload. That "outdated" little milkweed trick works wonders to help figure out a specific locale.



This was exactly why I started this thread in the first place, but I had my theory and tested it in the field with liberal milkweed throwing. My theory is that when you are hunting a spot where the wind swirling is unpredictable, the best thing to do is to hunt it on a very slow to non-existent wind, that way you can play the thermals only and not have to worry about how the wind swirls because the thermals will be stronger than the wind in that situation. I have found the thermal flow to be easier to predict than trying to predict how actual wind currents will react in different terrain or vegetation. That's just my theory, and have seen that to be true, but it is in my very limited experience. Maybe more experienced beasts can confirm or deny that to be true.
Also in my specific hunt the other day I expected the water to be warmer, since it was a decent sized body of water and the air temp had just recently dropped lower than the water temp would be.
User avatar
Uncle Lou
Moderator
Posts: 10308
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:32 pm
Location: Holly, MI
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Lake Thermals

Unread postby Uncle Lou » Sun Dec 26, 2021 1:21 pm

Brad wrote:
Uncle Lou wrote:the hardest part of the lake thermal effect is trying to figure out which mass is warmer, the land or the lake. As thermals rise they pull from the other, and guessing opposite as they sink. So it can get complicated in fall. That is why I posted the humorous anecdote, as it explodes my little brain. Swirls are hard enough to figure out, then you throw thermals, light wind vs heavy wind, then lake temps vs land temps it can get to overload. That "outdated" little milkweed trick works wonders to help figure out a specific locale.



This was exactly why I started this thread in the first place, but I had my theory and tested it in the field with liberal milkweed throwing. My theory is that when you are hunting a spot where the wind swirling is unpredictable, the best thing to do is to hunt it on a very slow to non-existent wind, that way you can play the thermals only and not have to worry about how the wind swirls because the thermals will be stronger than the wind in that situation. I have found the thermal flow to be easier to predict than trying to predict how actual wind currents will react in different terrain or vegetation. That's just my theory, and have seen that to be true, but it is in my very limited experience. Maybe more experienced beasts can confirm or deny that to be true.
Also in my specific hunt the other day I expected the water to be warmer, since it was a decent sized body of water and the air temp had just recently dropped lower than the water temp would be.


it is a great topic. I am not afraid to take a risk and burn it or make a mistake and hopefully learn for future. I like higher winds, I feel like I can get away with more, but I am not a big buck killer, so don't expect anyone to follow that advice. I feel on higher wind days, you can just play the wind and not worry as much about thermals as a higher wind should overpower them.
Silence Your Gear with Stealth Strips®
http://www.stealthoutdoors.com
User avatar
Brad
500 Club
Posts: 643
Joined: Tue May 26, 2020 2:06 pm
Status: Offline

Re: Lake Thermals

Unread postby Brad » Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:32 pm

Uncle Lou wrote:
Brad wrote:
Uncle Lou wrote:the hardest part of the lake thermal effect is trying to figure out which mass is warmer, the land or the lake. As thermals rise they pull from the other, and guessing opposite as they sink. So it can get complicated in fall. That is why I posted the humorous anecdote, as it explodes my little brain. Swirls are hard enough to figure out, then you throw thermals, light wind vs heavy wind, then lake temps vs land temps it can get to overload. That "outdated" little milkweed trick works wonders to help figure out a specific locale.



This was exactly why I started this thread in the first place, but I had my theory and tested it in the field with liberal milkweed throwing. My theory is that when you are hunting a spot where the wind swirling is unpredictable, the best thing to do is to hunt it on a very slow to non-existent wind, that way you can play the thermals only and not have to worry about how the wind swirls because the thermals will be stronger than the wind in that situation. I have found the thermal flow to be easier to predict than trying to predict how actual wind currents will react in different terrain or vegetation. That's just my theory, and have seen that to be true, but it is in my very limited experience. Maybe more experienced beasts can confirm or deny that to be true.
Also in my specific hunt the other day I expected the water to be warmer, since it was a decent sized body of water and the air temp had just recently dropped lower than the water temp would be.


it is a great topic. I am not afraid to take a risk and burn it or make a mistake and hopefully learn for future. I like higher winds, I feel like I can get away with more, but I am not a big buck killer, so don't expect anyone to follow that advice. I feel on higher wind days, you can just play the wind and not worry as much about thermals as a higher wind should overpower them.



I'd be really interested in the opinion of others who have alot of experience playing wind and thermals. I feel like I often try to find situations where the wind and the thermals are moving in the same general direction, because I often find when they oppose, there is way too much shifting in different directions. I also find in hilly areas and especially in thermal hubs, the wind seems to shift as much as 180 degrees often when the breeze is going fast enough to overpower the thermals. That's why I feel like I'm safer playing thermals only while the wind is negligible. The tricky part is you have to get out or change spots as soon as the thermals shift. I don't know, I'm still quite new to this, but I feel like I'm learning alot from this forum and from spending a pretty good amount of time in the woods throwing milkweed.


  • Advertisement

Return to “Deer Hunting”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Southern Buck and 5 guests