Cart before the horse.

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isitseasonyet?
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Cart before the horse.

Unread postby isitseasonyet? » Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:31 am

Anybody else put the cart before the horse in terms of learning on the beast?

Lockdowns confidence thread got me thinking about my own growth and development, and where I am and how much there is to learn.

I’ve been around for over 6 years on the beast. And my learning curve has felt painfully slow! But for good reason.

I feel like I joined at a time where there were only stone cold killers, and I thought at 18 I was ready to run with the big boys. So I made darn sure I understood the concepts like j hooks, thermal tunnels, different types of beds, sign, browse, terrain, topography, you name it I read it, memorized it, and was determined to put it to use to kill monster bucks.

I would go out scouting, find any random bed. And convince myself that all those pieces were there. And that it had to be the best spot ever. All I had to do was get a good wind for me, and presto, big buck down.

Not so fast skippy.

If I did happen to get it right by accident, I didn’t know how to set up quietly, what wind the bucks should be there on, when he would be there, and would never get a shot.

“These tactics are stupid” no, I was stupid :lol:

It took me 2 years just to actually be “mobile” and more like 5 to not be afraid to move if I wasn’t set up in the right spot.

It took me 3 years to realize that not every bed in the woods is a buck bed.

It took me 5 years to actually understand what a big bucks track looks like.

But I feel like I’m starting to make sense of those concepts I memorized at least I recognize them when I see them instead of “forcing” them to be there.

“Scout, Scout, Hunt” yeah Dan I got it, scout 2x in the off season for every day you want to hunt in season.

No, more like scout all off season so you have an idea where to look in season, then scout in season 2x as much as you hunt. (When you’re not as good as Dan, JoeRE, Lockdown, Dewey, Singing Bridge, Stan, Predator TC, Ect… it’s more like 5x) so that you KNOW you’re sitting over fresh sign, and that a buck is probably home.

“Be mobile” Okay Dan, I’ll sit random spots because you kill the first time in.

No, more like be mobile so that when you finally find a good spot after all that scouting, you can sit there when you find it instead of telling the buck “I’ll be back later to shoot you!” Even if the tree is less than ideal shape, size, ect.

Learn what deer sign looks like, then buck sign, then where to look and what you can skip, then how to be mobile so that you can hunt where you need to be.

You don’t know what you don’t know, and you REALLY don’t know when you don’t want to learn because you think you already know.

Anyone else make the same mistake and have to unlearn some bad habits?


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Re: Cart before the horse.

Unread postby john1984 » Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:53 am

Oh yeah!!!! I found a big bed this spring!!!! And if I don't kill from it this September,,,,,,,,. Well Dan's in BiG Trouble!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Cart before the horse.

Unread postby Lockdown » Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:45 pm

isitseasonyet? wrote:
I would go out scouting, find any random bed. And convince myself that all those pieces were there.


It took me 3 years to realize that not every bed in the woods is a buck bed.



But I feel like I’m starting to make sense of those concepts I memorized at least I recognize them when I see them instead of “forcing” them to be there.





These three comments stand out to me. Because I can relate 100%. Last year was a break through year for you. I could see the confidence in your posts even before you killed that buck for your Grandpa.

Buckle up because you’re about to have a ton of fun in the deer woods.

Awesome post btw. I agree with all of it. The Beast journey is certainly a progression.
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Re: Cart before the horse.

Unread postby Stingray713 » Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:49 pm

Great post. Most of what you said rings a bell for sure. If there’s one thing I’ve learned that has paid off the most is Never Give Up. I used to get bummed out when gun season started and the rut wound down, and I would still hunt plenty, but I had zero confidence.

Like Lockdowns post a few days ago, you gotta believe!
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Re: Cart before the horse.

Unread postby Lockdown » Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:51 pm

Every time I see a rub in a bed I think back to one of the whitetail adrenaline videos I watched. They laid down and watched this buck and doe that were locked down. That buck got up and made 6-8 rubs in the couple hours they were there.

Now imagine you came across that in the spring. What did you just find? There are beds there and a big rub cluster :L:

But all it really takes to make a “buck bed” is ONE buck laying in ONE bed leaving ONE rub... ONE TIME.

Rookie Beast thinks he found something.
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Re: Cart before the horse.

Unread postby Stingray713 » Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:02 pm

[quote="Lockdown"]Every time I see a rub in a bed I think back to one of the whitetail adrenaline videos I watched. They laid down and watched this buck and doe that were locked down. That buck got up and made 6-8 rubs in the couple hours they were there.

Now imagine you came across that in the spring. What did you just find? There are beds there and a big rub cluster :L:

But all it really takes to make a “buck bed” is ONE buck laying in ONE bed leaving ONE rub... ONE TIME.

Rookie Beast thinks he found something.[/quote

No doubt that was me for a few years. Then I found some real beds with so much hair in them that it looked like something ate the deer and just left a pile of hair. Kinda shocking the difference between a depression in the leaves and a real super secret hideout for his life bed he uses all fall and winter.
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Re: Cart before the horse.

Unread postby Dewey » Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:05 pm

35+ years and I’m still a rookie. It’s a lifelong learning experience.
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Re: Cart before the horse.

Unread postby Moose » Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:18 pm

isitseasonyet? wrote:Anybody else put the cart before the horse in terms of learning on the beast?

Lockdowns confidence thread got me thinking about my own growth and development, and where I am and how much there is to learn.

I’ve been around for over 6 years on the beast. And my learning curve has felt painfully slow! But for good reason.

I feel like I joined at a time where there were only stone cold killers, and I thought at 18 I was ready to run with the big boys. So I made darn sure I understood the concepts like j hooks, thermal tunnels, different types of beds, sign, browse, terrain, topography, you name it I read it, memorized it, and was determined to put it to use to kill monster bucks.

I would go out scouting, find any random bed. And convince myself that all those pieces were there. And that it had to be the best spot ever. All I had to do was get a good wind for me, and presto, big buck down.

Not so fast skippy.

If I did happen to get it right by accident, I didn’t know how to set up quietly, what wind the bucks should be there on, when he would be there, and would never get a shot.

“These tactics are stupid” no, I was stupid :lol:

It took me 2 years just to actually be “mobile” and more like 5 to not be afraid to move if I wasn’t set up in the right spot.

It took me 3 years to realize that not every bed in the woods is a buck bed.

It took me 5 years to actually understand what a big bucks track looks like.

But I feel like I’m starting to make sense of those concepts I memorized at least I recognize them when I see them instead of “forcing” them to be there.

“Scout, Scout, Hunt” yeah Dan I got it, scout 2x in the off season for every day you want to hunt in season.

No, more like scout all off season so you have an idea where to look in season, then scout in season 2x as much as you hunt. (When you’re not as good as Dan, JoeRE, Lockdown, Dewey, Singing Bridge, Stan, Predator TC, Ect… it’s more like 5x) so that you KNOW you’re sitting over fresh sign, and that a buck is probably home.

“Be mobile” Okay Dan, I’ll sit random spots because you kill the first time in.

No, more like be mobile so that when you finally find a good spot after all that scouting, you can sit there when you find it instead of telling the buck “I’ll be back later to shoot you!” Even if the tree is less than ideal shape, size, ect.

Learn what deer sign looks like, then buck sign, then where to look and what you can skip, then how to be mobile so that you can hunt where you need to be.

You don’t know what you don’t know, and you REALLY don’t know when you don’t want to learn because you think you already know.

Anyone else make the same mistake and have to unlearn some bad habits?

Sounds about right! When you hear Dan and all the other beast killers talk or watch their videos they make it sound so easy and explain it so good a caveman could do it. But reality sets in when you binge watch Dan's bedding videos and listen to a bunch of podcasts and think " this will be easy now that he showed me the way". Then you get to the place you want to scout and it seems like it's nothing like what I saw or heard. There's a bed, start digging for deer hair and nothing, I've done that alot. But once you actually do it enough and find true buck beds it all starts making alot more sense. I still check areas that I think are beds but if I don't find hair I write it off and keep looking. I agree it is going to take years to be good at finding beds more efficiently. Great post!
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Re: Cart before the horse.

Unread postby mipubbucks24 » Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:26 pm

I still struggle with tracks. I’ve walked over after seeing a mature buck just to look at tracks and can’t make them out from a doe. The really obvious ones are the only ones I can tell. As far as your learning curve seems like you tried to jump in head first without much experience. When I joined the best, I had almost a decade of killing deer and 20 years of hunting, and about 5 years of hunting public. So everything clicked fast. But guess what it took me from 2015 to 2020 before I harvested on public. I had a lot of mess ups. It’s hard to kill big bucks, you can’t make any mistakes. You are on the right track and light years ahead of most for your age.
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Re: Cart before the horse.

Unread postby A5BLASTER » Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:34 pm

Dewey wrote:35+ years and I’m still a rookie. It’s a lifelong learning experience.


This is spot on^^^

My grandfather taught me how to hunt deer and surprisingly enough what he taught me was just about spot on. On how Dan try's to teach people how too find,hunt and kill mature bucks.

40 years old now and been at them for nearly 30 years. And I still jack stuff up every year.
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Re: Cart before the horse.

Unread postby seazofcheeze » Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:36 pm

mipubbucks24 wrote:I still struggle with tracks. I’ve walked over after seeing a mature buck just to look at tracks and can’t make them out from a doe. The really obvious ones are the only ones I can tell. As far as your learning curve seems like you tried to jump in head first without much experience. When I joined the best, I had almost a decade of killing deer and 20 years of hunting, and about 5 years of hunting public. So everything clicked fast. But guess what it took me from 2015 to 2020 before I harvested on public. I had a lot of mess ups. It’s hard to kill big bucks, you can’t make any mistakes. You are on the right track and light years ahead of most for your age.


I know what you mean. What's helped me is looking at the angle of the front feet. A big buck tracks usually points outward (like 10 and 2 on a clock or 11 and 1, vs more like 12 o clock for both front feet) more than a doe AND the distance between the front feet is usually farther apart because a buck has a larger chest than a doe. So, even if the hooves arent much bigger than a doe, there should be some other clues to help differentiate a set of buck tracks from a big doe.
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Re: Cart before the horse.

Unread postby Huntress13 » Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:51 pm

Yeah, I'm still at "Not so fast, Skippy" even though I started hunting over 30 years ago. :lol:
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Re: Cart before the horse.

Unread postby Lockdown » Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:55 pm

seazofcheeze wrote:
mipubbucks24 wrote:I still struggle with tracks. I’ve walked over after seeing a mature buck just to look at tracks and can’t make them out from a doe. The really obvious ones are the only ones I can tell. As far as your learning curve seems like you tried to jump in head first without much experience. When I joined the best, I had almost a decade of killing deer and 20 years of hunting, and about 5 years of hunting public. So everything clicked fast. But guess what it took me from 2015 to 2020 before I harvested on public. I had a lot of mess ups. It’s hard to kill big bucks, you can’t make any mistakes. You are on the right track and light years ahead of most for your age.


I know what you mean. What's helped me is looking at the angle of the front feet. A big buck tracks usually points outward (like 10 and 2 on a clock or 11 and 1, vs more like 12 o clock for both front feet) more than a doe AND the distance between the front feet is usually farther apart because a buck has a larger chest than a doe. So, even if the hooves arent much bigger than a doe, there should be some other clues to help differentiate a set of buck tracks from a big doe.


I’m constantly picking tracks apart even in the spring. For my area (and my finger width), 2.5 fingers means it’s not impossible it’s a 3 yr old but most likely not. Jumping up to 2 3/4” is a significant difference and is big enough to get my attention. If it’s a 3 finger track I know it’s a 3.5+ yr old buck, likely mature.

JoeRE is a big track guy, and he said multiple times that some bucks don’t have big feet. So if other sign dictates a big one is around (tall rub, big poop, etc) then I don’t let the lack of big tracks bother me.

One piece of advice I will suggest is really pick tracks apart when you check your trail cameras. I always try and predict what’s on it. For example, my inner monologue:

“It’s Saturday afternoon. We had a light rain Thursday night/Friday morning. I see one big set of tracks and it looks like the mud was sticking to his hooves a little. They aren’t washed out at all so I’m assuming he was here Friday morning. Looks like the super fresh tracks from last night and this morning are all doe and fawn tracks.”

Then I check the card out and prove/disprove my theories. This has helped me tremendously. Keep in mind the hardest areas to interpret tracks are those with high dpsm. Seems like the does and little bucks always have the big buck tracks covered up. If you’re really close to bedding it’s usually easier but the field edge spot checks or river crossings are way tougher.
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Re: Cart before the horse.

Unread postby Stingray713 » Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:45 pm

I usually look for tracks where the deer is heavy enough to sink the dew claws in. I don’t feel like I see many big tracks where the dew claws aren’t noticeable.

Maybe I’m missing something?
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Re: Cart before the horse.

Unread postby PK_ » Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:56 pm

I think there are a couple big standouts for me.

1) People tend to think that ‘elite’ guys just walk into the woods. Figure everything out right away, get all their assumptions correct from cyber scouting and just put in a few hunts to pull out one of the better bucks in the woods they are in. Yes, once in a while that happens, but overall, it is much more of a trial and error, process of elimination and gut feelings based on lots of experience. I will say that with all the experience, generally they can narrow things down quicker, but it still isn’t a super power. They are just able to understand what is and isn’t important rather quickly.

I have had many conversations with many of the guys considered ‘elite’ and many other guys who should be in that category but are under the radar. I can tell you that none of them think of themselves to be half the hunters that people make them out to be. They are all very much students of the game and they focus on learning from failure more than dwelling on the successes.

2) Tunnel vision. I heard someone else bring this up in another thread and I agree 100%(and made the mistake myself). People tend to get so hyper focused on one aspect or factor(like finding specific beds) that they are missing the bigger picture. The truth is all these different factors and tactics you hear guys talk about are integrated.

What I mean by that is finding where a buck is feeding and traveling is good but if you don’t know where he is bedding you still may have no chance. Finding the best buck bed on the property doesn’t do you much good if you don’t understand when that bed will be most likely to hold a big buck or the best conditions to hunt it. Figuring out when the best buck is likely to be in that bed doesn’t matter if you don’t understand the wind and thermals. Getting close to a bedded buck doesn’t do you any good if you can’t setup quietly or pick the right kill tree. Getting setup close to a buck bed doesn’t always matter if you can’t predict which way he will exit the bed.

Let’s say you get all that right, now you have to keep your crap together when it finally all comes together. Getting a big buck in range and getting him killed are two completely different things. Most pressured mature bucks don’t stand around in the open and offer you the kind of shot guys hope for. Given the nature of where they live and travel during daylight you often have to make a shot happen, some guys aren’t comfortable with this and they let a lot of opportunities slip through their fingers. I am not saying you should spray and pray, but you have to understand it’s usually not like shooting other deer and you should be mentally and physically prepared to take a shot that has a higher degree of difficulty because that is what you are generally presented with.
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