Let’s talk lack of sign

[headgear]

This thread is why I mostly focus on tracks but prime time I have run into plenty of areas that were all torn up and had encounters and shot some deer because of crazy good sign. A guy really has to flexible and not get stuck on one or the other.

[Lockdown]

Ryan, Do you find the mature bucks stay in the same bedding all season? Or do they shift as cover & pressure dictates?

I feel like in my areas they shift deeper when pressure and leaves starts dropping.

I think a mature buck staying in the same bedding all year would be fairly rare. As always it’s situational. I don’t have a handful of first hand experiences to share, but IMO the higher pressure is, the better the chance he is re-using one specific bedding area consistently.

I see lots of shifting around here. BIG pattern shift around velvet shed. And the ones that don’t shift have their wits about them once that velvet comes off. If I had a dollar for every bean field velvet buck that never showed back up hard horned I’d be rich. And that’s bucks of all ages not just the big ones. That doesn’t mean they relocated...

I see another big shift when rut comes. Mid-late October they often relocate. The 162” I killed in 2016 showed up on cam Oct 24th one year and Oct 22nd the other. I don’t know where he lived during the summer months because he wasn’t on properties I had access to and that’s all that mattered to me. Why waste time finding him where he’s off limits?

Then once the snow flies I see another major shift. Over 90% of properties around here won’t even hold deer at all.

To answer your question better, I think most big bucks move around some unless a) pressure is crazy high or b) they have a private land sanctuary. I would be able to answer it better but I can’t camera bomb all my public bedding so what I learn is with my own eyes. Takes longer this way

Not to mention the differences I saw between MN and WI were obvious. Every situation is unique and needs to be addressed individually. Even around home it’s crazy how different some of my properties are.

[Lockdown]

This thread is why I mostly focus on tracks but prime time I have run into plenty of areas that were all torn up and had encounters and shot some deer because of crazy good sign. A guy really has to flexible and not get stuck on one or the other.

Trying to find the bedding a buck is in reminds me of my Dad teaching me to glass deer when I was young. He said “Look for an ear. A leg. The horizontal line of their back. If you end up seeing their whole body it will jump right out at you.”


Finding a buck’s bedroom is similar. Kind of like Bridge’s singular sign thread. The subtle clues are where it’s at. Finding one or two indications is all that’s needed to give his presence away. We will miss the boat if an explosion of sign is needed to get our attention.

[Lockdown]

My trailcams are my sign. If I get pics of caliber buck I wanna kill that’s all I need . Then I hunt him till I kill him I don’t go looking for sign. I will make mock scrapes where I want them also for inventory.

Care to elaborate?

Are your bedding areas marked up pretty well and you’re using cams to let you know WHEN they’re there? Or are you using them to verify that a bedding area does hold a shooter? Maybe a combination both?

[Brian1986]

For me lack of sign in relation to bedding and/or big bucks being present and what I make of that lack of sign goes hand in hand with the general overall pressure on a property. It's almost hard to put into words in a way, more of the feel of a property. Take this highly pressured wildlife area for example. It was all reclaimed farm ground with crp, cedars, & honeysuckle. For quite a while the only places with large trees were the thick fence rows and the small wood lots throughout. Every year it was growing thicker. Private farm lands surrounded all sides of the property. Though it was premier deer habitat because of the hunter pressure (both small game and deer hunters) there was not much big buck sign in the areas designated for hunting. And most of the sign there was in places they would only visit at night. However the adjacent parcel that was designated non-hunting had big sign all over the place. There were some absolute giants living in that parcel. Though the occasional big buck would live on the hunting portions of the property, the majority didn't show up until around Oct 24th. I would scout a road crossing for rubs that last week of October. Once the rubs started showing up along the road we knew the bucks would be in there.

Those rubs on the road would be my primary sign indicator. But in the bedding areas very very little sign by way of rubs. Looking back on it 4 bucks (2 of which we shot) in particular stand out. Only 1 of which had a small rub by his bed. Two were rut bedding where they could monitor does and two were year primary bedding. Three of the four by the way were within 150 yards of a parking lot. The fourth about 200yds from the parking lot. One bed stood out above the rest and I discovered it by pure chance.

This was on a small huntable parcel adjacent to a large hunting parcel. All the hunters would always hunt the large parcel. Truth be told, this was before online mapping was really prevalent so unless you were sharp with your navigation I'm not sure that many guys even knew this was hunting ground at the time. The bed was in a tangle of honeysuckle, briars and small saplings on a knob looking down into a small crp valley and the area itself was surrounded by crp, brush, small trees and cedars. The bed was only 25yds from a busy road running north/south and maybe 65yds from one of the parking spots. The road, impenetrable rear cover & prevailing SW wind gave him perfect rear cover. To his left only 15yds away was an old fence that separated hunting ground from no-hunting zone. There wasn't a buck rub or scrape within at least 100 yds of his bed. Just a network of trails through the cover.

The first time I found this bed was the fourth day of shotgun season in Ohio (during the first week of December generally). We were going to hunt the large parcel of land. But I decided just for something different to still hunt through the small adjacent property that I hadn't hunted before. It was a SW wind so I decided to enter from the west about 75 yards from the northern edge and work my way south. We shut the truck doors, said our good lucks and I walked sheepishly across the road (ha not only was I dating the fat chick, my dad was watching me ask her out. Though in fairness to him he thought it was a good plan). I crossed the road and hadn't taken 3 steps out of the ditch into the field when I hear this buck exploding from his bed through the cover 40 yards to my left and running top speed for the cedar thicket. I was so shocked I didn't even raise my gun. That buck was in a perfect overlooked spot and there was no sign to tip off his presence. The nearest tree big enough for any type of tree stand was over 100yds away and was a 14ft tall cedar that we built a ladder stand to fit into. We tried a couple hunts later in the season from the stand but didn't see the big buck again. I did find one his sheds a few hundred yards away. The following season on Thanksgiving morning btw I had a SW wind again and decided to try to stalk the buck and kill him coming out of his bed on the ground. I did a big loop to the south and entered the field far enough down that my wind would just miss his bed. Long story short I got to within 35yards of his bed. Either he caught a bit of scent or heard something that caused him to get up. Instead of escaping on the trail he had the previous gun season, he walked along the edge of the fence at the northern edge. He stopped broadside at 20 yards and I was at full draw, but there was a big honey suckle bush between us and I couldn't find a hole big enough I was comfortable shooting through. After a few seconds he jumped the fence into the no hunting zone and walked away into another patch of cover. That was the last time I saw him.

So on a pressured property like this as long as I can determine there are bucks in the general area I don't need for there to be sign directly where I'm hunting them.

[Lockdown]

For me lack of sign in relation to bedding and/or big bucks being present and what I make of that lack of sign goes hand in hand with the general overall pressure on a property. It's almost hard to put into words in a way, more of the feel of a property. Take this highly pressured wildlife area for example. It was all reclaimed farm ground with crp, cedars, & honeysuckle. For quite a while the only places with large trees were the thick fence rows and the small wood lots throughout. Every year it was growing thicker. Private farm lands surrounded all sides of the property. Though it was premier deer habitat because of the hunter pressure (both small game and deer hunters) there was not much big buck sign in the areas designated for hunting. And most of the sign there was in places they would only visit at night. However the adjacent parcel that was designated non-hunting had big sign all over the place. There were some absolute giants living in that parcel. Though the occasional big buck would live on the hunting portions of the property, the majority didn't show up until around Oct 24th. I would scout a road crossing for rubs that last week of October. Once the rubs started showing up along the road we knew the bucks would be in there.

Those rubs on the road would be my primary sign indicator. But in the bedding areas very very little sign by way of rubs. Looking back on it 4 bucks (2 of which we shot) in particular stand out. Only 1 of which had a small rub by his bed. Two were rut bedding where they could monitor does and two were year primary bedding. Three of the four by the way were within 150 yards of a parking lot. The fourth about 200yds from the parking lot. One bed stood out above the rest and I discovered it by pure chance.

This was on a small huntable parcel adjacent to a large hunting parcel. All the hunters would always hunt the large parcel. Truth be told, this was before online mapping was really prevalent so unless you were sharp with your navigation I'm not sure that many guys even knew this was hunting ground at the time. The bed was in a tangle of honeysuckle, briars and small saplings on a knob looking down into a small crp valley and the area itself was surrounded by crp, brush, small trees and cedars. The bed was only 25yds from a busy road running north/south and maybe 65yds from one of the parking spots. The road, impenetrable rear cover & prevailing SW wind gave him perfect rear cover. To his left only 15yds away was an old fence that separated hunting ground from no-hunting zone. There wasn't a buck rub or scrape within at least 100 yds of his bed. Just a network of trails through the cover.

The first time I found this bed was the fourth day of shotgun season in Ohio (during the first week of December generally). We were going to hunt the large parcel of land. But I decided just for something different to still hunt through the small adjacent property that I hadn't hunted before. It was a SW wind so I decided to enter from the west about 75 yards from the northern edge and work my way south. We shut the truck doors, said our good lucks and I walked sheepishly across the road (ha not only was I dating the fat chick, my dad was watching me ask her out. Though in fairness to him he thought it was a good plan). I crossed the road and hadn't taken 3 steps out of the ditch into the field when I hear this buck exploding from his bed through the cover 40 yards to my left and running top speed for the cedar thicket. I was so shocked I didn't even raise my gun. That buck was in a perfect overlooked spot and there was no sign to tip off his presence. The nearest tree big enough for any type of tree stand was over 100yds away and was a 14ft tall cedar that we built a ladder stand to fit into. We tried a couple hunts later in the season from the stand but didn't see the big buck again. I did find one his sheds a few hundred yards away. The following season on Thanksgiving morning btw I had a SW wind again and decided to try to stalk the buck and kill him coming out of his bed on the ground. I did a big loop to the south and entered the field far enough down that my wind would just miss his bed. Long story short I got to within 35yards of his bed. Either he caught a bit of scent or heard something that caused him to get up. Instead of escaping on the trail he had the previous gun season, he walked along the edge of the fence at the northern edge. He stopped broadside at 20 yards and I was at full draw, but there was a big honey suckle bush between us and I couldn't find a hole big enough I was comfortable shooting through. After a few seconds he jumped the fence into the no hunting zone and walked away into another patch of cover. That was the last time I saw him.

So on a pressured property like this as long as I can determine there are bucks in the general area I don't need for there to be sign directly where I'm hunting them.

Good stuff right there

[greenhorndave]

Amen.

That was great Brian. Thanks!

[MichiganMike]

Target buck I shot last season did not lay down ANY rubs. He was definitely the dominant buck in the area too. He came within 50 yds of my tree couple days before I shot him. He was chasing a doe then started breeding her. When he was done, he was right where I walked and put his nose down to smell. I thought crap- he was going to bolt but he actually started to snort wheeze! Long story short- he walked off and I wasn't able to get a shot that morning. But Anyway- the sign and rubs I thought were his was laid by 1-1/2 and 2 1-/2 year old bucks as I found out after I shot him. They were the subordinate bucks that were bedding about 100 yds or so to the north of him. They were agitated and knew he was around and the does wanted nothing to do with them- so they laid the rubs. Makes sense.

[tim]

My trailcams are my sign. If I get pics of caliber buck I wanna kill that’s all I need . Then I hunt him till I kill him I don’t go looking for sign. I will make mock scrapes where I want them also for inventory.

Care to elaborate?

Are your bedding areas marked up pretty well and you’re using cams to let you know WHEN they’re there? Or are you using them to verify that a bedding area does hold a shooter? Maybe a combination both?

When I pick an area to hunt I will bombard the perimeters with cameras. That’s if I like what I see on a map. If I get what I want on cams I will start methodically hunting based on winds and TRAILCAM information such as times . I don’t need verification of specific bed sites , if I’m getting the right deer at the right times I know he’s bedding nearby and I can make an educated guess without going in and blowing him out and scouting his bedroom. Have trailcams cost me deer ? Probably ,that’s why I try to stay in areas it hopefully won’t affect them as much .for years I’ve heard people say flash spooks deer then it’s red lights flash deer well I’ve ran every kind in the last 22 years and it’s deer specific with 95-98% of them not caring one bit. I’ve kept all my pics and videos over the years so I know what they show me. Every once in awhile I will get a very weary buck which was the case on this years buck. 3 years of video and very camera shy he would turn inside out at times he even switched up how he travelled with wind directions each year which made it very tuff. The first year I hunted him he ran hills which were leeward winds last year I went after him and he switched to westward wind so I tried and failed this year he went back to leeward but instead of traveling his usually SE wind like 2 years prior he switched to NE winds . Cameras don’t lie and they are my biggest tool. I did kill tht buck but he made a fool out of me 2 years in a row. But to get back to sign , the biggest buck I’ve ever killed left no sign and I just though I was missing it somehow that there must be some sign around somewhere . Nope there wasn’t and I even tried sitting historic sign cause I couldn’t figure him out. Well when I killed him his Pedicles and beading was sharp and unworn as if he had never rubbed and just lost his velvet . I don’t believe all deer make a lot of sign. This year I hunt a mock scrape on a known path in Racine county and every big buck that walked past it looked at it like they had no clue what it was a couple sniffed it and kept going. Same setup in Vernon county and they tear it up. So I’m sure deer density has a lot to do with it as well as specific deer traits....

[brancher147]

I find in the mountains I hunt especially on mature forest public land sign is affected by weather, food (acorns) , and habitat. We don’t get enough hunter pressure to affect sign. Take this year with very warm weather during late October and early November and we found very few scrapes so few that I didn’t hang any cameras on fresh scrapes and that is usually my go to for pre rut. Rubs were confined to mostly bedding areas and areas with acorns which was very spotty. Years with cool weather and lots of acorns I see much more sign on public but those years are few and far between. There is not much good deer habitat around here but if you have areas near ag or with some timber harvest can get some young forest with browse and cover you can find sign every year in those type of areas.

But the big great sign is always out there somewhere I just usually don’t find it until post season scouting lol. I scouted an area yesterday with a bunch of acorns, good laurel bedding, and hundreds of rubs and a handful of scrapes some still fresh.

I have also hunted areas where there just isn’t the right type and size of trees for bucks to rub or not overhanging branches for scrapes and there is not much sign but deer are there. You just gotta look for tracks and bedding and overlooked buck sign that doesn’t jump out at you-these type areas can hold some bigger bucks but they’re tough to figure out and can take a lot of time on stand.

[MichiganMike]

For me lack of sign in relation to bedding and/or big bucks being present and what I make of that lack of sign goes hand in hand with the general overall pressure on a property. It's almost hard to put into words in a way, more of the feel of a property. Take this highly pressured wildlife area for example. It was all reclaimed farm ground with crp, cedars, & honeysuckle. For quite a while the only places with large trees were the thick fence rows and the small wood lots throughout. Every year it was growing thicker. Private farm lands surrounded all sides of the property. Though it was premier deer habitat because of the hunter pressure (both small game and deer hunters) there was not much big buck sign in the areas designated for hunting. And most of the sign there was in places they would only visit at night. However the adjacent parcel that was designated non-hunting had big sign all over the place. There were some absolute giants living in that parcel. Though the occasional big buck would live on the hunting portions of the property, the majority didn't show up until around Oct 24th. I would scout a road crossing for rubs that last week of October. Once the rubs started showing up along the road we knew the bucks would be in there.

Those rubs on the road would be my primary sign indicator. But in the bedding areas very very little sign by way of rubs. Looking back on it 4 bucks (2 of which we shot) in particular stand out. Only 1 of which had a small rub by his bed. Two were rut bedding where they could monitor does and two were year primary bedding. Three of the four by the way were within 150 yards of a parking lot. The fourth about 200yds from the parking lot. One bed stood out above the rest and I discovered it by pure chance.

This was on a small huntable parcel adjacent to a large hunting parcel. All the hunters would always hunt the large parcel. Truth be told, this was before online mapping was really prevalent so unless you were sharp with your navigation I'm not sure that many guys even knew this was hunting ground at the time. The bed was in a tangle of honeysuckle, briars and small saplings on a knob looking down into a small crp valley and the area itself was surrounded by crp, brush, small trees and cedars. The bed was only 25yds from a busy road running north/south and maybe 65yds from one of the parking spots. The road, impenetrable rear cover & prevailing SW wind gave him perfect rear cover. To his left only 15yds away was an old fence that separated hunting ground from no-hunting zone. There wasn't a buck rub or scrape within at least 100 yds of his bed. Just a network of trails through the cover.

The first time I found this bed was the fourth day of shotgun season in Ohio (during the first week of December generally). We were going to hunt the large parcel of land. But I decided just for something different to still hunt through the small adjacent property that I hadn't hunted before. It was a SW wind so I decided to enter from the west about 75 yards from the northern edge and work my way south. We shut the truck doors, said our good lucks and I walked sheepishly across the road (ha not only was I dating the fat chick, my dad was watching me ask her out. Though in fairness to him he thought it was a good plan). I crossed the road and hadn't taken 3 steps out of the ditch into the field when I hear this buck exploding from his bed through the cover 40 yards to my left and running top speed for the cedar thicket. I was so shocked I didn't even raise my gun. That buck was in a perfect overlooked spot and there was no sign to tip off his presence. The nearest tree big enough for any type of tree stand was over 100yds away and was a 14ft tall cedar that we built a ladder stand to fit into. We tried a couple hunts later in the season from the stand but didn't see the big buck again. I did find one his sheds a few hundred yards away. The following season on Thanksgiving morning btw I had a SW wind again and decided to try to stalk the buck and kill him coming out of his bed on the ground. I did a big loop to the south and entered the field far enough down that my wind would just miss his bed. Long story short I got to within 35yards of his bed. Either he caught a bit of scent or heard something that caused him to get up. Instead of escaping on the trail he had the previous gun season, he walked along the edge of the fence at the northern edge. He stopped broadside at 20 yards and I was at full draw, but there was a big honey suckle bush between us and I couldn't find a hole big enough I was comfortable shooting through. After a few seconds he jumped the fence into the no hunting zone and walked away into another patch of cover. That was the last time I saw him.

So on a pressured property like this as long as I can determine there are bucks in the general area I don't need for there to be sign directly where I'm hunting them.

Good stuff right there

thanks for sharing that! That is a great scenario. Its amazing how little if any sign mature bucks leave. The sign they do leave can be YARDS from their hideouts.