Entrance/Exit no blood discussion

[muddy]

These are pics of the deer my daughter shot. The entrance is on the right side, and appears to be a perfect shot. The exit is slightly back, obviously a slight quarter too shot. She barely grazed the heart, as seen from the pic, and there was practically zero blood. If I hadn't heard the "WHOP" of the bullet hitting I'd have said it was a clean miss. Zero blood for 70 yards and then I found a few drops. I followed that until I heard brush snapping and saw the antlers "lolling around" as the buck lay there dying. I would say I watched him 15-20 minutes before I was confident he was down and snuck back to get stuff packed up and let him die in peace.

Just discussing the oddity of such a great shot placement and how a new hunter might have written it off as a miss. If the deer had been 100% broadside I am guessing she'd have blown his heart in half. A few inches up, thru the aorta. Moral of my story is my daughter needs to aim mid body a bit more and save dad some pondering and frustration.

I have been looking at deer anatomy pics and think the angle caused the bullet to graze the tip of the heart and barely went under the lowest lobe of the lung and just by the stomach? The heart was very VERY deeply bruised so figure cardiac arrest killed him because of the lack of blood outside and internally.

Thoughts?20201005_071526.jpg20201005_074424.jpg20201001_202049.jpg

Best way to never have that happen again is to stop shooting them in the vitals and shoot them in the high shoulder/spine. Takes out the cns and they drop on the spot.

Maybe for an adult, but for my kids I'm going to keep hammering shooting for the lungs. Larger target area and less meat wastage.

Why not teach them better marksman skills instead and let them see their animal drop in place and not have the mental stress hit them when they watch their deer run off after a vital hit.

And the high shoulder/ spine shot for a cns kill is the same size as a deer heart. So same size kill zone.

I guess in my world I'm not into taking the high spine shot.

[Edcyclopedia]

These are pics of the deer my daughter shot. The entrance is on the right side, and appears to be a perfect shot. The exit is slightly back, obviously a slight quarter too shot. She barely grazed the heart, as seen from the pic, and there was practically zero blood. If I hadn't heard the "WHOP" of the bullet hitting I'd have said it was a clean miss. Zero blood for 70 yards and then I found a few drops. I followed that until I heard brush snapping and saw the antlers "lolling around" as the buck lay there dying. I would say I watched him 15-20 minutes before I was confident he was down and snuck back to get stuff packed up and let him die in peace.

Just discussing the oddity of such a great shot placement and how a new hunter might have written it off as a miss. If the deer had been 100% broadside I am guessing she'd have blown his heart in half. A few inches up, thru the aorta. Moral of my story is my daughter needs to aim mid body a bit more and save dad some pondering and frustration.

I have been looking at deer anatomy pics and think the angle caused the bullet to graze the tip of the heart and barely went under the lowest lobe of the lung and just by the stomach? The heart was very VERY deeply bruised so figure cardiac arrest killed him because of the lack of blood outside and internally.

Thoughts?20201005_071526.jpg20201005_074424.jpg20201001_202049.jpg

Best way to never have that happen again is to stop shooting them in the vitals and shoot them in the high shoulder/spine. Takes out the cns and they drop on the spot.

Maybe for an adult, but for my kids I'm going to keep hammering shooting for the lungs. Larger target area and less meat wastage.

Why not teach them better marksman skills instead and let them see their animal drop in place and not have the mental stress hit them when they watch their deer run off after a vital hit.

And the high shoulder/ spine shot for a cns kill is the same size as a deer heart. So same size kill zone.

Higher percentage shots for beginning hunters, just learning, makes the most sense to me...

Basically marksmanship and the realty of the adrenaline while hunting are two issues on it's own.

I know a few seasoned hunters that can hit a quarter at 100 yards all day long, put a deer in front of them and it's a 50-50 raffle ticket.
I've tracked more wounded deer for friends that are not "cool" enough to kill consistently in the heat of the moment.
Kind of sad, but it's realty.

* Buck (deer) fever
* Not knowing if the animal is going to take a step
* Sixth sense, etc...

[Huntress13]

Shot a buck with a 12 gauge at about 35 yards. It was quartering away. No blood. No hair. No indication I hit him, but I was certain I did. Finally found him, he had ran about 150 yards but there was no blood until the last 20. The bullet entered right under his armpit, blew out his heart and lodged in the offside leg. So no exit hole. Also consider that once the heart stops, it isn't pumping anymore so there's no circulation. I believe the blood on the ground came out of his mouth, not the wound.

[HunterBob]

Ranch Fairy did a video on this, talking about how each organ is wrapped in its own protective layer, sort of like plastic wrap. For blood to come out of the wound, it is actually harder than it might seem since it has to go through each layer of these wraps with the pressure being sucked in instead of blowing out. He describes it better than I can obviously:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_Uf2XllI4Y

[Wolfshead]

These are pics of the deer my daughter shot. The entrance is on the right side, and appears to be a perfect shot. The exit is slightly back, obviously a slight quarter too shot. She barely grazed the heart, as seen from the pic, and there was practically zero blood. If I hadn't heard the "WHOP" of the bullet hitting I'd have said it was a clean miss. Zero blood for 70 yards and then I found a few drops. I followed that until I heard brush snapping and saw the antlers "lolling around" as the buck lay there dying. I would say I watched him 15-20 minutes before I was confident he was down and snuck back to get stuff packed up and let him die in peace.

Just discussing the oddity of such a great shot placement and how a new hunter might have written it off as a miss. If the deer had been 100% broadside I am guessing she'd have blown his heart in half. A few inches up, thru the aorta. Moral of my story is my daughter needs to aim mid body a bit more and save dad some pondering and frustration.

I have been looking at deer anatomy pics and think the angle caused the bullet to graze the tip of the heart and barely went under the lowest lobe of the lung and just by the stomach? The heart was very VERY deeply bruised so figure cardiac arrest killed him because of the lack of blood outside and internally.

Thoughts?20201005_071526.jpg20201005_074424.jpg20201001_202049.jpg

Best way to never have that happen again is to stop shooting them in the vitals and shoot them in the high shoulder/spine. Takes out the cns and they drop on the spot.

Maybe for an adult, but for my kids I'm going to keep hammering shooting for the lungs. Larger target area and less meat wastage.

Why not teach them better marksman skills instead and let them see their animal drop in place and not have the mental stress hit them when they watch their deer run off after a vital hit.

And the high shoulder/ spine shot for a cns kill is the same size as a deer heart. So same size kill zone.

I guess in my world I'm not into taking the high spine shot.

Where I’m from that’s a pretty decent shot!
Sometimes good hits just mean having to track them. Part of hunting. Teach Her to take pride in being as good a blood tracker as she is a good shot.
I agree with you when you say “Im not into taking the high spine shot.“ as I believe that there is too much that can go wrong.
But that’s just my opinion based on my experiences.

[headgear]

You shocked the heart and it stopped beating. Probably went into fibrillation.

I am thinking this as well, if the heart wasn't pumping then you will have far less blood. Most of my heart shots were harder tracking jobs, I kind of aim for the lungs anyway because I love to eat deer hearts too.

[stash59]

Unlike broadheads. Bullets kill more by shock. Than hemorrhage. So in some cases. Not alot of blood is lost. I also like Rich's point about the heart stopping! Just shows you need to keep looking until you've exhausted every possibility.

[Chuck B]

Timely post Muddy. My boy just his first deer today (doe). Quartering away, he put it exactly where you want it, right in the vitals. Well long story short we found her after 30 minutes of looking. Ran 60 yards into the brush and zero bleeding. All internal. We were in a rush on guy job with the young kids doing it/helping so didn’t inspect heart too much.

Just goes to show, gotta look HARD.

We were using a .243.

[Wolfshead]

My first deer was a good sized Doe.
i shot her with my muzzleloader from about 70-80 yards.
I have a CVA Optima, and shoot 300 gn Scorpion PT Gold .50. cal behind 110 grains by volume of Blackhorn 209.
After I shot her she took off and headed for the thick stuff so fast I was certain I had missed.
Very little blood at first, just some droplets where she was standing when I hit her.
She traveled about 120 yards before she collapsed trying to duck under a blow down.
It was an easy trail because of snow as she only really bled just as she was ducking under.
After gutting her she has very little trace of a heart left.
Deer do some crazy things before they realize they are dead.

[Wapiti]

A friend of mine shot a big buck earlier this year with a hybrid broadhead. The shot angle was flat and the arrow entered right behind the front leg, clipping the shoulder muscle, and exiting beneath the offside armpit. We found no blood for ~80 yds until the deer slowed down and entered bedding. Initially, there was muscle blood and small chunks of muscle followed by ~25 yds of decent blood and then the dead buck.

[ThePreBanMan]

I think blood has to full the cavity before it starts to leak from the hole. Even then, depending on the position of the deer at the time of the shot, there are overlapping layers of muscle there. When they move the layers move and can actually close up the holes as the hole in each layer is no longer aligned.

Ranch Fairy demonstrates this in one of his videos if you want to see the actual anonymity of this in action. Blood trails are never guaranteed. Even with the best shot, expansion, broadhead, etc....

[Rich M]

Timely post Muddy. My boy just his first deer today (doe). Quartering away, he put it exactly where you want it, right in the vitals. Well long story short we found her after 30 minutes of looking. Ran 60 yards into the brush and zero bleeding. All internal. We were in a rush on guy job with the young kids doing it/helping so didn’t inspect heart too much.

Just goes to show, gotta look HARD.

We were using a .243.

That is common w 243.

Have tracked a bunch of 243 shot bucks and found a few couple days later too. I've only shot 1 deer w 243 and didn't have to track. Will be using it in a couple of weeks.

[Chuck B]

Timely post Muddy. My boy just his first deer today (doe). Quartering away, he put it exactly where you want it, right in the vitals. Well long story short we found her after 30 minutes of looking. Ran 60 yards into the brush and zero bleeding. All internal. We were in a rush on guy job with the young kids doing it/helping so didn’t inspect heart too much.

Just goes to show, gotta look HARD.

We were using a .243.

That is common w 243.

Have tracked a bunch of 243 shot bucks and found a few couple days later too. I've only shot 1 deer w 243 and didn't have to track. Will be using it in a couple of weeks.

The .243 has been a great gun so far for young boy. Bought the savage youth model. Can I ask why you use it over other calibers, especially with your review of some less than ideal track jobs? I do have a couple other buddies that use a .243 as well, just curious as to why you enjoy it.

[Itchy Bones]

I just shot a buck 8yards broadside double lung. entry was top of the ribcage exit was horizontal center just in front of the third from last rib. Very little blood, Im glad I heard him coughing blood and saw the wild tail flicking or I would have been very worried about the shot and probably backed out on a hot day. also it never bolted just bounded a few steps walked a bit plopped down then i heard it roll in the grass a bit and another cough. pay very close attention after the shot too that information tells you a lot more than just the blood left behind. that buck only went 40 yards.

[Rich M]

Timely post Muddy. My boy just his first deer today (doe). Quartering away, he put it exactly where you want it, right in the vitals. Well long story short we found her after 30 minutes of looking. Ran 60 yards into the brush and zero bleeding. All internal. We were in a rush on guy job with the young kids doing it/helping so didn’t inspect heart too much.

Just goes to show, gotta look HARD.

We were using a .243.

That is common w 243.

Have tracked a bunch of 243 shot bucks and found a few couple days later too. I've only shot 1 deer w 243 and didn't have to track. Will be using it in a couple of weeks.

The .243 has been a great gun so far for young boy. Bought the savage youth model. Can I ask why you use it over other calibers, especially with your review of some less than ideal track jobs? I do have a couple other buddies that use a .243 as well, just curious as to why you enjoy it.

Hi Chuck,

Just my rambling thoughts and opinions - started deer hunting at the age of 8, around 1977 or 78. Anyway, Had to use 3006 or couldn't go. Been using the 3006 for all these years and it aint my favorite - heavy muzzleblast and decent recoil have led to flinch fighting for decades. After a long time, decided to get a 243 cause of the low recoil. Love it - easy on the ears and the shoulder. Just a light bullet with small diameter.

Been hunting on a lease since about 2013 - had some young guys on there, they shot 243s, so have been able to experience the tracking involved with the deer they shot. One was 1.5 yo buck shot thru shoulder into chest cavity at a range of 100 yards with winchester 100 gr soft point ammo, 250-300 yard track. The blood started flowing after 100-150 yards and was still kinda sparse - ended up spotting a hoof sticking out from under a tangle of vines... We found another buck one of the boys had shot - it was a beautiful 8 pt, 175-185# buck, only made it 50-60 yards but we found it when we saw the buzzards. We wondered if the boy had tried to find it, maybe didn't mark the shot well, 100 diff things but very nice buck lost until the birds got to it. That "boy" now shoots a 270. Another guy I knew who took some true trophy 200#+ dressed bucks in northern VT w 243 until he lost one, stepped up to a 270. These were in the days before the 6.5 CM and myriad of other specialty cartridges we have now.

Last year I shot a 300# mule deer at 220 yards with 243 with Federal blue box soft point ammo (shoots excellent in my gun). Got penetration thru high shoulder shot into ribs a hair under the spine, stunned him and did not hit far ribs, Lung shot followed and that bullet was recovered under the hide on far side. He might have gone 25-50 yards between the 2 shots. Shoulder shot was due to property boundary being close. Deer was as big as a cow, so not an ordinary whitetail.

That got me reloading the 243 for more penetration - have a decent 2950 fps 100 gr partition load will be using in a couple of weeks. Also have a 3020 fps 100 gr Sierra Pro Hunter load that shoots real tight past 200 yds - this will probably be an antelope and FL deer load. Did not have success with copper bullets and groupings at 200-250 yards. Have tried 6-8 diff brands of varying weights and models of bullets.

I plan on shooting a deer or two with the 243 but am inclined to use the 3006 at one stand due to longer shots and tight property boundaries and thick cover - a runner and a light blood trail would be nothing but headaches at that spot.

As with everything - shot placement is paramount and angles matter. The 243 is a great bullet, just has some limitations. If we work inside of those, the deer die quickly and we find em.