How important are oaks in swamps/marshes??

[Bubbles]

Hello all,
Haven't posted in a while but I have a lot of time of my hands right now as I'm sure we all do.

This idea piqued my interest when watching the public land challenge videos when Dan and Joe drove around 3hrs to find a marsh with oaks islands in it. So, how important are oaks in these big swamps?

I'm a newish Hunter, and I'm primarily hunting swamps and marshes in southern Ontario.
I've noticed that the best chunks of public I have found and taken deer off of, all contain one ingredient:oaks. I've never been able to find the unicorn that is the oak island set back in a marsh - all the marsh islands I find turn out to be primarily maple and tamarack with some cherry, pine and birch. But oaks on the high ground leaving the marsh, transitioning to ag or somewhere on the perimeter of the swamp.
If it's a swamp without oaks nearby, but just agriculture, I'll find sign and maybe some beds, but when I leave a trail camera for the fall, I get activity around the rut, but that's it.
Swamps with oaks around, seems to have a much more consistent deer population (these are all swamps with oaks and agriculture nearby) through early season, rut and late season and just seem to hold more deer in general.
Any thoughts? Am I way off on this? Having trail cameras sit in some of these spots really seemed to open my eyes to this. Places that would be great bedding seem to not get used unless there are oaks nearby. Maybe I'm also just being biased towards early season as well?
Our deer numbers are also not nearly as high as a lot of US states so that could be an issue as well.

[Bonecrusher101]

No you make a lot of sense. The best mix I’ve found is food cover and water in areas completely secluded from hunting pressure.

Here in the south we have chestnut swamp oaks that grow well in saturated soils but most of the oak species here won’t thrive if the are submerged for any length of time.

Pressure and food greatly influences where deer bed and when. I think if your area had high hunting pressure more deer would bed in the swamps regardless of tree type and wait to feed on oaks at night.

[KornfedKiller]

I'm also hunting southern Ontario. I spent a lot of time in a swamp in 2019 that I couldn't find a single oak in (maybe they were somewhere in there, it was big, but I covered a lot of ground too). It had a wicked population with some really buck sign, and I saw a really heavy 10 pointer early in October.

I've scouted a lot of different areas since December, I'm slowly chipping away at my first bow deer. I found the bigger draw to be water. If there's year round bodies of water, the population is thick and I'm getting wicked cam pics or seeing cool things. If it's a swampy area that's only wet part of the year, or a wood lot, I haven't found anything that made me want to spend more time scouting there.

I was in a swamp yesterday and was waist deep in water most of the 5km I walked. It wasn't the ocean of cattails we see in the videos and I'm not sure we even have that here, because I've been looking. I'm sure it will dry up through the year, but there are several areas that wont dry up. It was my third time in there, and there is PLENTY of big buck sign. It's just a matter of deciphering it now.

I also think the ag fields in our area are a bigger deal to the deer than the oaks, oaks seem to be nice to follow on the way to the fields but I'm sure there's plenty else in there they can eat as well. Everyone around here that has given me good advice has said "where there's corn there's bucks", so I'm going to start watching for that. But like why wouldn't they like a sweet bean field? Maybe those guys just hunt field edges and don't push back far enough on bean years, I don't have much else to go on but a couple years of pounding my head against a wall and hours of pouring over this forum and other sources. I'm sure I'll find out for myself the next few years anyway.

[Bubbles]

I'm also hunting southern Ontario. I spent a lot of time in a swamp in 2019 that I couldn't find a single oak in (maybe they were somewhere in there, it was big, but I covered a lot of ground too). It had a wicked population with some really buck sign, and I saw a really heavy 10 pointer early in October.

I've scouted a lot of different areas since December, I'm slowly chipping away at my first bow deer. I found the bigger draw to be water. If there's year round bodies of water, the population is thick and I'm getting wicked cam pics or seeing cool things. If it's a swampy area that's only wet part of the year, or a wood lot, I haven't found anything that made me want to spend more time scouting there.

I was in a swamp yesterday and was waist deep in water most of the 5km I walked. It wasn't the ocean of cattails we see in the videos and I'm not sure we even have that here, because I've been looking. I'm sure it will dry up through the year, but there are several areas that wont dry up. It was my third time in there, and there is PLENTY of big buck sign. It's just a matter of deciphering it now.

I also think the ag fields in our area are a bigger deal to the deer than the oaks, oaks seem to be nice to follow on the way to the fields but I'm sure there's plenty else in there they can eat as well. Everyone around here that has given me good advice has said "where there's corn there's bucks", so I'm going to start watching for that. But like why wouldn't they like a sweet bean field? Maybe those guys just hunt field edges and don't push back far enough on bean years, I don't have much else to go on but a couple years of pounding my head against a wall and hours of pouring over this forum and other sources. I'm sure I'll find out for myself the next few years anyway.

I've never been able to find any oaks IN any of our Ontario swamps (haven't scouted them all yet! Haha) But the swamps that have oaks on their perimeter/high ground on the way to corn/beans seem to hold deer throughout the season and more/better deer than the swamps that have no oaks anywhere in or around them. That's kind of the gist. I've been able to find good sign in the swamps that have no oaks surrounding them, but when I throw trailcams at them, it seems to be almost entirely rut activity. Corn / beans surround all of the swamps and seem to be a constant.

The water point is interesting and is something that can fluctuate wildly from year to year.

As far as pressure goes, the swamps I've found with oaks get higher pressure as well.

Another factor, maybe I'm overestimating the early season bow pressure in Ontario, and the deer are only getting pushed back in to these deep oakless swamps when the pressure really hits around gun season, which also is the rut?

[KornfedKiller]

I've never been able to find any oaks IN any of our Ontario swamps (haven't scouted them all yet! Haha) But the swamps that have oaks on their perimeter/high ground on the way to corn/beans seem to hold deer throughout the season and more/better deer than the swamps that have no oaks anywhere in or around them. That's kind of the gist. I've been able to find good sign in the swamps that have no oaks surrounding them, but when I throw trailcams at them, it seems to be almost entirely rut activity. Corn / beans surround all of the swamps and seem to be a constant.

The water point is interesting and is something that can fluctuate wildly from year to year.

As far as pressure goes, the swamps I've found with oaks get higher pressure as well.

Another factor, maybe I'm overestimating the early season bow pressure in Ontario, and the deer are only getting pushed back in to these deep oakless swamps when the pressure really hits around gun season, which also is the rut?

I grabbed this off Wikipedia:

"Oaks are keystone species in a wide range of habitats from Mediterranean semi-desert to subtropical rainforest. For example, oak trees are important components of hardwood forests, and certain species are particularly known to grow in associations with members of the Ericaceae in oak–heath forests.[23][24] A number of kinds of truffles, including the two well known varieties, the black Périgord truffle[25] and the white Piedmont truffle,[26] have symbiotic relationships with oak trees. Similarly many other mushrooms such as Ramaria flavosaponaria also associate with oaks.[27][28] The European pied flycatcher is an example of an animal species that often depends upon oak trees."

So it seems that it's not the Oaks per se, but what comes with them. I imagine a deer would go nuts over a truffle. However if it's oaks you're looking for inside a swamp and not just on the perimeter, overlay some topo maps from the ontario website with pictures off google earth, use the historical pics function. Then speed scout. That's what I've been doing so far. I just bounce back and forth between all the pics before I make any decisions.

I tried looking for the "Island in the cattails" from September to January because I didn't know what else to do and I watched a ton of guys have success with it in videos. Maybe I'm wrong, but none of the hunting videos address southern ontario specifically. I mean not just the beast, but across the board. Again I could be wrong and admittedly I haven't watched every hunting show ever made, but I have a theory that the regional variability is enough that we have some unique features that may be overlooked on a grander scale (like media or forums like this). We may not have that island in the cattails. When I was in my early 20's I drove to Alberta and back for school and work. Spent a year out there, explored on the way out and on the way back. Something I noticed is that as you get closer to the middle of the country, the larger the expanses of homogenous terrain. But nothing compares to driving through Ontario... It's like the entire continent in one province. If you've been in the phrag and cuts of Lake Erie, you've seen Florida fishing. We have prairie-like expanses of farms. The Great Lakes (the only real Mediterranean climate away from the coasts) and deep sea-style fishing. Salmon runs. Thick bush, swamp, marshes, and other lowlands. Ridges, escarpments, and mountainous terrain. Because of that, I think the answer to what holds deer in this area doesn't have an answer that is "island in the cattails". I think pressure guides them, and water holds them. I don't think bowhunter/gun pressure is the only thing to consider. We have a lot jammed into a small area here, Including about half the country's population in the GTA. If I'm not mistaken the 401 is one of the most congested roadways in North America. Yes there are plenty of hunters but there are also plenty of dog walkers, guys sneaking in to fish spots, house development, off roaders. Finding continuous pieces of land is hard to come by and that fragmented deer population has to adapt. I've found the same scattered deer sign in swamps without oaks, but I also consistently find more people sign in those areas. I imagine if most people prefer not to climb if they don't have to, and oaks are associated with elevation (to my knowledge at least).

Kind of long winded but I've been thinking about that a lot, I'm putting as much into 2020 as I can.

[Swamp_donkey]

Hey, I'm also hunting southern Ontario and have been focusing my hunting increasingly on swamps over the years. In the areas I hunt, most wetlands are smaller than the endless cattails seas in much of the beast content. And do not contain the remote islands covered in oak trees that Dan likes so much.

I have personally never had much success targeting oaks in the early season and in season scouting has not led me get overly excited despite everything you read. We tend to have lots of red oak which are not great as far as choice acorns. A bit closer to the swamps you tend to find the burr oaks (a type of white oak)and swamp white oak. Depending on where you are in southern Ontario, proper white oaks may not be common and tend to be more upland.

In my experience I feel like our acorn drop is at least partially over by the time our season starts on the first of Oct. If you find a tree dropping acorns shuck one and try the nut, if its edible the deer may eat them. If it tastes horrid, less likely. Same goes for apple trees, if you have several trees in a area, see which one has the best tasting apples.

On that note, apple trees most certainly will attract attention early season round here. I have certainly had lots of success focusing on this food source. I find the occassional one near or in swamps and they can be a gold mine. Particularly if cleared out and pruned to allow it to thrive.

The other thing you mentioned was corn, it definitely draws deer in these parts and is very common. Its particularly good if adjacent to good cover, such as a swamp. Had some great hunts near a filthy corn field back in the woods. However, I find that's not at it's best until temps drop and we get a little snow. Early season or during rainy spells, secluded bean fields can be a magnet too. Hay and alfalfa, clover, etc can be pretty attractive depending on season. If it's fairly young or well maintained I've found they'll hit it but if it's old and tough they're not interested.

Most of my success has come from focusing on terrain and vegetation features as it relates to bedding and transition to that food source or staging/scent checking behaviour. The best thing I have found with some of the more remote swamp spots is the consistantly late return and early departure to and from bedding. I have found this really promotes day light movement of mature bucks during the prerut (last few days before Nov gun hunt). Most trail cam pics in these spots are daylight. Just getting them out can be terrible.

Additionally, as you noted, we do not generally have near as much pressure as states like Michigan, Wisconsin or Pennsylvania. Despite that I do find what Dan says to hold true about the big guys are most likely to be in inaccessible or overlooked spots. I'd say it's more dog walkers or runners on most public spots, until the orange army emerges that is. Even then I would think most Michigan public hunters would laugh.

Finally I agree about deer relating to water, it's a major benefit for them in terms of avoiding predation in a setting like a swamp. River corridors, ditchlines, wetland/forest transitions can all provide great cover to hunt.

PM me if you have any area specific questions, I'm west of the gta but travel around a fair bit.

[Bubbles]

Hey, I'm also hunting southern Ontario and have been focusing my hunting increasingly on swamps over the years. In the areas I hunt, most wetlands are smaller than the endless cattails seas in much of the beast content. And do not contain the remote islands covered in oak trees that Dan likes so much.

I have personally never had much success targeting oaks in the early season and in season scouting has not led me get overly excited despite everything you read. We tend to have lots of red oak which are not great as far as choice acorns. A bit closer to the swamps you tend to find the burr oaks (a type of white oak)and swamp white oak. Depending on where you are in southern Ontario, proper white oaks may not be common and tend to be more upland.

In my experience I feel like our acorn drop is at least partially over by the time our season starts on the first of Oct. If you find a tree dropping acorns shuck one and try the nut, if its edible the deer may eat them. If it tastes horrid, less likely. Same goes for apple trees, if you have several trees in a area, see which one has the best tasting apples.

On that note, apple trees most certainly will attract attention early season round here. I have certainly had lots of success focusing on this food source. I find the occassional one near or in swamps and they can be a gold mine. Particularly if cleared out and pruned to allow it to thrive.

The other thing you mentioned was corn, it definitely draws deer in these parts and is very common. Its particularly good if adjacent to good cover, such as a swamp. Had some great hunts near a filthy corn field back in the woods. However, I find that's not at it's best until temps drop and we get a little snow. Early season or during rainy spells, secluded bean fields can be a magnet too. Hay and alfalfa, clover, etc can be pretty attractive depending on season. If it's fairly young or well maintained I've found they'll hit it but if it's old and tough they're not interested.

Most of my success has come from focusing on terrain and vegetation features as it relates to bedding and transition to that food source or staging/scent checking behaviour. The best thing I have found with some of the more remote swamp spots is the consistantly late return and early departure to and from bedding. I have found this really promotes day light movement of mature bucks during the prerut (last few days before Nov gun hunt). Most trail cam pics in these spots are daylight. Just getting them out can be terrible.

Additionally, as you noted, we do not generally have near as much pressure as states like Michigan, Wisconsin or Pennsylvania. Despite that I do find what Dan says to hold true about the big guys are most likely to be in inaccessible or overlooked spots. I'd say it's more dog walkers or runners on most public spots, until the orange army emerges that is. Even then I would think most Michigan public hunters would laugh.

Finally I agree about deer relating to water, it's a major benefit for them in terms of avoiding predation in a setting like a swamp. River corridors, ditchlines, wetland/forest transitions can all provide great cover to hunt.

PM me if you have any area specific questions, I'm west of the gta but travel around a fair bit.

Great points all around. Good to know other folks in Ontario are having difficulty with the whole oak thing as well. The mid September opener definitely changes the game in terms of acorn drop. Although I feel like a lot of Michigan guys target oaks and they have an Oct opener as well.

I might pay a little more attention to those apple trees, although, I feel as though I've walked by them in the past and they seemed completely untouched. Lots of apples on the tree within easy reach and tons of rotting, untouched apples on the ground. Maybe I need to start tasting them. If they taste good to me they'll taste good to deer is that the idea?

[Kraftd]

Oaks can be great, but they aren't the end all be all. I'd pay attention to the corn bean rotation. Beans have usually dried and yellowed by bow season and aren't much of a draw unless they stay standing into the later part of the season and some freezes work on them.

In much of the midwest last year the wet conditions kept the corn up well into the season and it was tough in a lot of spots because the deer can just hunker down in corn with any little bit of pressure. My gut says if you're seeing sign in the non-oak swamps, the deer are there all year, just have to figure out how they are being used and how to hunt them. That said, if the properties with Oaks are easier to pattern, don't overthink it unless you find a buck you want to hunt on another property. Acron drop can vary a lot year to year and even property to property too.

I try to use general rules and guidance, but let each property tell me if its worth investing time in then figure it out on its own merit. I personally shy away from getting in the mindset of hard and fast big picture rules like swamps with oaks are better. Some may be some may not. Scout and let the sign decide.

[Hawthorne]

They can make a break a whole season in the swamps or marshes on public land imo. Whether they produce or not. Every area is different. I know there are other variables that go into a hunt so you can still be successful. That’s just what I’ve seen in my neck of the woods

[1STRANGEWILDERNESS]

Hey, I'm also hunting southern Ontario and have been focusing my hunting increasingly on swamps over the years. In the areas I hunt, most wetlands are smaller than the endless cattails seas in much of the beast content. And do not contain the remote islands covered in oak trees that Dan likes so much.

I have personally never had much success targeting oaks in the early season and in season scouting has not led me get overly excited despite everything you read. We tend to have lots of red oak which are not great as far as choice acorns. A bit closer to the swamps you tend to find the burr oaks (a type of white oak)and swamp white oak. Depending on where you are in southern Ontario, proper white oaks may not be common and tend to be more upland.

In my experience I feel like our acorn drop is at least partially over by the time our season starts on the first of Oct. If you find a tree dropping acorns shuck one and try the nut, if its edible the deer may eat them. If it tastes horrid, less likely. Same goes for apple trees, if you have several trees in a area, see which one has the best tasting apples.

On that note, apple trees most certainly will attract attention early season round here. I have certainly had lots of success focusing on this food source. I find the occassional one near or in swamps and they can be a gold mine. Particularly if cleared out and pruned to allow it to thrive.

The other thing you mentioned was corn, it definitely draws deer in these parts and is very common. Its particularly good if adjacent to good cover, such as a swamp. Had some great hunts near a filthy corn field back in the woods. However, I find that's not at it's best until temps drop and we get a little snow. Early season or during rainy spells, secluded bean fields can be a magnet too. Hay and alfalfa, clover, etc can be pretty attractive depending on season. If it's fairly young or well maintained I've found they'll hit it but if it's old and tough they're not interested.

Most of my success has come from focusing on terrain and vegetation features as it relates to bedding and transition to that food source or staging/scent checking behaviour. The best thing I have found with some of the more remote swamp spots is the consistantly late return and early departure to and from bedding. I have found this really promotes day light movement of mature bucks during the prerut (last few days before Nov gun hunt). Most trail cam pics in these spots are daylight. Just getting them out can be terrible.

Additionally, as you noted, we do not generally have near as much pressure as states like Michigan, Wisconsin or Pennsylvania. Despite that I do find what Dan says to hold true about the big guys are most likely to be in inaccessible or overlooked spots. I'd say it's more dog walkers or runners on most public spots, until the orange army emerges that is. Even then I would think most Michigan public hunters would laugh.

Finally I agree about deer relating to water, it's a major benefit for them in terms of avoiding predation in a setting like a swamp. River corridors, ditchlines, wetland/forest transitions can all provide great cover to hunt.

PM me if you have any area specific questions, I'm west of the gta but travel around a fair bit.

Great points all around. Good to know other folks in Ontario are having difficulty with the whole oak thing as well. The mid September opener definitely changes the game in terms of acorn drop. Although I feel like a lot of Michigan guys target oaks and they have an Oct opener as well.

I might pay a little more attention to those apple trees, although, I feel as though I've walked by them in the past and they seemed completely untouched. Lots of apples on the tree within easy reach and tons of rotting, untouched apples on the ground. Maybe I need to start tasting them. If they taste good to me they'll taste good to deer is that the idea?

I tell you in Michigan and in my experience here the deer hammer the oaks red or white. Especially on islands and large marsh areas. I always read oh well they aren’t big on the red oak but they sure seem to be here. I think it may be due to our extreme high deer density though.
Most areas mast doesn’t last on the ground long unless it’s the mother load.

Find a lot of areas without them though, and if not near ag land it seems generally there is a lower deer density in the areas without.. I think..