Advice hunting pine stands

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martyMSU
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Advice hunting pine stands

Unread postby martyMSU » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:50 am

I've attached a screenshot of some public I'm planning to hunt next fall. I followed deer tracks in the snow. I didn't make it to the far west side of the property, but there's lots of tracks on the north, east, and south. South of the property is ag, and the tracks definitely go to and from the ag. I went out for an early morning walk this morning. There was a strong west wind, and the deer were east of the property heading west into it along the purple line I drew. The yellow circle is a bedding area I found with able 10 beds in a 10' radius and a trail going south to the ag with beds pock marked on both sides of the trail. North of the property is residential. On the southern side of the property I found a ladder stand, and a crossbow bolt stuck into a tree (without a drop of blood on it.) My thought is to come in from the east on a west wind and hunt about 100 yards or so south of the bedding area I found. But then this morning those deer I saw would have been following right in the tracks I had gone in on. Now I'm second guessing myself on what is the best way to hunt this on day 1. Any thoughts from the forum?
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Re: Advice hunting pine stands

Unread postby PK_ » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:38 am

It’s a little hard to follow. I am surprised you didn’t find bedding in that opening to the sw of the yellow circle.

From what I can see that you have marked, I would hunt downwind of the yellow circle on a N, NE or E wind, come in the back door way before daylight...

What year are these pines? What’s the understory look like?
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Re: Advice hunting pine stands

Unread postby Twenty Up » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:03 am

Looks monotonous, find any diversity in the pines (oaks, swamp etc) deer will gravitate to that.
Also agree with PK. How thick is the understory in these pines? That’s a huge determining factor. If you can see further than 50 yards, that’s a waste land to deer in the South. Could be good thermal bedding in the winter depending on where you’re at. Been a while since I hunted a place that snowed, lol
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Re: Advice hunting pine stands

Unread postby GreenMtBoy » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:28 pm

So … my very first post! Have been a long-time reader of this forum and following Dan for several years, but never felt the need to register or engage in a conversation (have had bad experiences with "anonymous" others on another forum who could be very critical of views different from their own - even if they had no experience or expertise in the matter). I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the range of topics brought up and the readily apparent experience and expertise revealed in many "Beasties" out there! So, I finally joined THB in early February when Dan was doing his first two workshops … and am willing to chime in when I think I can provide some decent input.

I hunted in central Virginia for several years. And because it was on public lands, typically the forests had a lot of pines and were relatively flat. Deer hounds can be about them during the entire firearms season (mid November to early January) ... and trying to hunt undisturbed deer is not possible with hounds in the woods! So, being on public lands with pine plantations and having to deal with deer hounds influenced how I tried to hunt adult bucks. Hard lesson learned - the thicker the better, the wetter the better, the more out-of-the-way the better!

What I learned chasing the bigger boys in central Virginia is that they use the features of a property to their total advantage to move, bed, feed and rut. No earth-shattering revelation here - it's the same stuff Dan & other Beasties preach. However, when I finally understood this, I then realized that I had to consider how an experienced buck will use the wind, terrain and cover AND how the average Joe hunts the woods to maximize his ability to stay inconspicuous and keep his hide intact. And any buck that has survived a couple hunting seasons on heavily hunted public land becomes a master of survival, regardless of the size of the horns on his head! And the older they get the more crafty and elusive they get! And believe it or not, I was aware of a couple truly mature bucks that were able to outwit and evade hounds and hunters over and over and over! I have no doubt that they could have died of natural causes. How did they do it? By hiding - and staying put - in the wet & thick & unhunted stuff … getting in before daylight and not leaving until after dark. This could be a half acre swamp in the middle of a 40 acre patch of pines or a low ridge point that funneled air movement to a certain spot from upwind where the average Joes hiked/hunted or a high point of grass/brush in or along the edge of a small clearing - spots where they had the capability to see/hear/smell hunters/predators well before they got to him. And beyond that, during the rut they might relocate to a breeding patch or just move about during mid-day. They also cling to edges and will use streams/creeks to move about - and more times than not, with the wind and/or good view of what is ahead in their favor. I've known of a big buck standing still for an hour and a half looking - listening - sniffing to make sure the woods are safe before committing to moving on. The key is just like Dan says - the big boys know where they are out of harm's way and will seek out and stay in those places … so as a hunter, we must find those spots. It isn't from sheer luck that the big guys find them - they look for them! If you kill a good buck in one spot then another one will take up that spot sooner rather than later. Seen and heard about this happening over and over!

Something I've seen with the older bucks is that they will get up in their sanctuary when the sun goes over the horizon. Then, from then until dark (30-45 min) they might move about that sanctuary freely … but not breaking cover until dark. I've experienced bucks moving a hundred yards or more in such situations. But, getting in there and remaining undetected are the feats to accomplish - and much easier said than done!

I can't do an "X marks the spot" for your photo - too many variables could be at play. Although I'm a big Google Earth user - and have been able to narrow my scouting efforts to the most promising locations on many occasions - I've learned that it is "boots on the ground" that make the difference in determining the real value of a spot AND finding those little out-of-the-way places that a topo map or aerial image don't show or the deer sign leads you to. Some spots just don't pan out because for whatever reason deer / bucks don't use them. Then there are those that are used only by does / young bucks. And yet others that are only used by the big boys.

I've also learned to stop using trail cams to scout - I've spooked every big buck that I have ever captured with one (usually only getting a single pic of him). Trail cams are good for "taking inventory" - but bad for taking the place of boots on the ground and old-fashioned woodsmanship. And I won't put them in close to a buck's sanctuary or where I want to set up. This might be a public-lands only issue … but I've seen it happened every year that I used trail cams, then I finally realized what was going on.

So, my advice is to thoroughly scout the woods you hunt and locate those little spots that "fit the bill" for a big buck to reside during the day THEN figure out when & how you can hunt those set ups. Look for big buck sign - but as Dan has said, the older a buck gets the less inclined some are to leave sign. I look for big tracks and rubs, then try to piece together the puzzle. Nothing is etched in stone nor can you expect to totally pattern a buck. All you can do is try to get a tidbit of intel here and there to theorize what he is doing. But remember that throughout a season a buck's behavior changes - because of the changing food sources, changing weather, changing foliage AND hunting seasons AND the rut (Oct 25 to Dec 5 was the typical rut for where I hunted in Virginia … and November 10-24 was typical peak breeding) … so there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to locations or tactics.

I've most enjoyed the time I spent trying to figure out pine woods and engaging "in the chase." I still haven't figured out pine woods to my satisfaction .. and far from being a complete take on them. This is what makes "hunting" what it truly is - a journey down an uncertain but exciting path!
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Re: Advice hunting pine stands

Unread postby Uncle Lou » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:00 pm

GreenMtBoy wrote:So … my very first post! Have been a long-time reader of this forum and following Dan for several years, but never felt the need to register or engage in a conversation (have had bad experiences with "anonymous" others on another forum who could be very critical of views different from their own - even if they had no experience or expertise in the matter). I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the range of topics brought up and the readily apparent experience and expertise revealed in many "Beasties" out there! So, I finally joined THB in early February when Dan was doing his first two workshops … and am willing to chime in when I think I can provide some decent input.

I hunted in central Virginia for several years. And because it was on public lands, typically the forests had a lot of pines and were relatively flat. Deer hounds can be about them during the entire firearms season (mid November to early January) ... and trying to hunt undisturbed deer is not possible with hounds in the woods! So, being on public lands with pine plantations and having to deal with deer hounds influenced how I tried to hunt adult bucks. Hard lesson learned - the thicker the better, the wetter the better, the more out-of-the-way the better!

What I learned chasing the bigger boys in central Virginia is that they use the features of a property to their total advantage to move, bed, feed and rut. No earth-shattering revelation here - it's the same stuff Dan & other Beasties preach. However, when I finally understood this, I then realized that I had to consider how an experienced buck will use the wind, terrain and cover AND how the average Joe hunts the woods to maximize his ability to stay inconspicuous and keep his hide intact. And any buck that has survived a couple hunting seasons on heavily hunted public land becomes a master of survival, regardless of the size of the horns on his head! And the older they get the more crafty and elusive they get! And believe it or not, I was aware of a couple truly mature bucks that were able to outwit and evade hounds and hunters over and over and over! I have no doubt that they could have died of natural causes. How did they do it? By hiding - and staying put - in the wet & thick & unhunted stuff … getting in before daylight and not leaving until after dark. This could be a half acre swamp in the middle of a 40 acre patch of pines or a low ridge point that funneled air movement to a certain spot from upwind where the average Joes hiked/hunted or a high point of grass/brush in or along the edge of a small clearing - spots where they had the capability to see/hear/smell hunters/predators well before they got to him. And beyond that, during the rut they might relocate to a breeding patch or just move about during mid-day. They also cling to edges and will use streams/creeks to move about - and more times than not, with the wind and/or good view of what is ahead in their favor. I've known of a big buck standing still for an hour and a half looking - listening - sniffing to make sure the woods are safe before committing to moving on. The key is just like Dan says - the big boys know where they are out of harm's way and will seek out and stay in those places … so as a hunter, we must find those spots. It isn't from sheer luck that the big guys find them - they look for them! If you kill a good buck in one spot then another one will take up that spot sooner rather than later. Seen and heard about this happening over and over!

Something I've seen with the older bucks is that they will get up in their sanctuary when the sun goes over the horizon. Then, from then until dark (30-45 min) they might move about that sanctuary freely … but not breaking cover until dark. I've experienced bucks moving a hundred yards or more in such situations. But, getting in there and remaining undetected are the feats to accomplish - and much easier said than done!

I can't do an "X marks the spot" for your photo - too many variables could be at play. Although I'm a big Google Earth user - and have been able to narrow my scouting efforts to the most promising locations on many occasions - I've learned that it is "boots on the ground" that make the difference in determining the real value of a spot AND finding those little out-of-the-way places that a topo map or aerial image don't show or the deer sign leads you to. Some spots just don't pan out because for whatever reason deer / bucks don't use them. Then there are those that are used only by does / young bucks. And yet others that are only used by the big boys.

I've also learned to stop using trail cams to scout - I've spooked every big buck that I have ever captured with one (usually only getting a single pic of him). Trail cams are good for "taking inventory" - but bad for taking the place of boots on the ground and old-fashioned woodsmanship. And I won't put them in close to a buck's sanctuary or where I want to set up. This might be a public-lands only issue … but I've seen it happened every year that I used trail cams, then I finally realized what was going on.

So, my advice is to thoroughly scout the woods you hunt and locate those little spots that "fit the bill" for a big buck to reside during the day THEN figure out when & how you can hunt those set ups. Look for big buck sign - but as Dan has said, the older a buck gets the less inclined some are to leave sign. I look for big tracks and rubs, then try to piece together the puzzle. Nothing is etched in stone nor can you expect to totally pattern a buck. All you can do is try to get a tidbit of intel here and there to theorize what he is doing. But remember that throughout a season a buck's behavior changes - because of the changing food sources, changing weather, changing foliage AND hunting seasons AND the rut (Oct 25 to Dec 5 was the typical rut for where I hunted in Virginia … and November 10-24 was typical peak breeding) … so there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to locations or tactics.

I've most enjoyed the time I spent trying to figure out pine woods and engaging "in the chase." I still haven't figured out pine woods to my satisfaction .. and far from being a complete take on them. This is what makes "hunting" what it truly is - a journey down an uncertain but exciting path!



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Re: Advice hunting pine stands

Unread postby greenhorndave » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:29 pm

What Lou said! 8-)
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Re: Advice hunting pine stands

Unread postby may21581 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:23 pm

Twenty Up wrote:Looks monotonous, find any diversity in the pines (oaks, swamp etc) deer will gravitate to that.
Also agree with PK. How thick is the understory in these pines? That’s a huge determining factor. If you can see further than 50 yards, that’s a waste land to deer in the South. Could be good thermal bedding in the winter depending on where you’re at. Been a while since I hunted a place that snowed, lol


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Re: Advice hunting pine stands

Unread postby martyMSU » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:47 pm

My question probably was disjointed, I threw it up quick over my lunch. It is a very monotonous piece of land. I'm not sure how old the pines are. They're very tall jackpines. This is private land but with a special tax benefit for letting the public use it like its public land. So the pines were all planted, in rows, like a cornfield. Any oaks that exist are stunted saplings and are part of the understory. There are a good bit of thorny vines/raspberry bushes in the understory that can make parts of this zero fun to get through in September. There are also patches of wrist thick saplings in spots that are almost impossible to walk through because they're so thick. Those saplings are also part of the understory.
I don't believe I checked the clearing southwest of the yellow circle. I'll double back in 2 weeks and check it out.
There is no marsh here, this is high ground with no terrain variation. North of this is residential, and North of the residential is big white oaks that lead down a hillside to the river with finger ridges that point down to the river. I'll be scouting that over the next month as well.
The predominant wind in the area is primarily south, secondary predominant wind is from the west. It can blow from the north if a cold front is moving in, if it's an east wind we got weather that isn't for for man nor beast. Could be 2 feet of snow in October in 24 hours if it's an east wind.
My morning walk the other day had me on the east side of the property about an hour before sun up. The wind was from the west, and the deer seemed to have moved north from the southern bean field up the closed private land to the east of this and were crossing west into it in the pre-dawn (straight into the wind of course.) I was always taught to try to enter your spot with your face into the wind and try to use any available cover to not be seen. My initial thought is to try to enter south of where the deer were crossing on the east side of the property and go west into the property on a west wind, and hunt south of that bedding area by 100-200 yards early in the season. I don't think the area holds big bucks, I think they stay further northeast on private land with very little pressure. My gut says is this is a spot to fill doe tags, but I like the feedback from the users here and will scout this more in depth in the coming years to fine tune what I know about this area. Attached is a pic of some of the beds I found while scouting this spot a couple weeks ago.
Loving the feedback. I know what my gut tells me, but I know my gut doesn't have the experience a lot of people on here have. Yet.
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Re: Advice hunting pine stands

Unread postby GreenMtBoy » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:46 pm

I appreciate the positive comments from others! It makes me feel welcomed and encouraged! Thanks!!
So here's another round to hopefully add a little more food for thought. And I am still referencing things I learned during my days hunting forests in central Virginia comprised mainly of pine stands. There were hardwoods mixed in with oaks … but … a lot more pines than I had ever seen hunting elsewhere!

I learned this from Barry Wensel (attended one of his last boot camps 3 years ago) … BW has forgotten much more about whitetails than I will ever know! And he will tell you that anyone who thinks they have whitetails figured out is fooling himself - deer (and especially those old crafty big boys) can do things contrary to "what everyone knows." Although he doesn't talk or write about it, he tends to set up on travel routes out of daytime bedding locations. He just not a "run & gun" type of hunter (his stand of choice is an 8-10 foot ladder stand that he sets up for 10-15 yard shots).

Don't limit your focus to just the location of a potential stand or the woods you can hunt - look at the bigger picture and identify potential destinations, even if they are on properties you can't access (this is where Google Earth can be a big help - especially if you use the historical imagery to change time of year and angle/direction of imagery captured) … which will lead to candidate travel routes. Using possible destinations and travel routes you can then look for sign in those locations that will reveal the actual movement taking place. BW also emphasizes thinking about why the sign was in a particular spot - what was the deer doing? why here? when did it occur? where was it coming from and going to? is it a spot that can be set up on?

Although I prefer to eyeball a property on GE and maybe a topo map to zero in on likely spots to check out, I have learned that if time permits, it is best to walk the perimeter of the woods to get a sense of the movement in and out of the property. This can tell you a lot about what exists in the woods. I've found other spots to set up on by doing this - and these were spots that were not apparent on GE or a topo map. The small swamp in a pine forest is an example - I didn't know it existed from looking at GE or a topo map. But, it was there - and the biggest buck in the woods lived in it during the day! And there was another swamp on the other side of a small ridge that harbored yet another big one during the day! See below pics of these guys … a couple trail cam shots from 2017 and a couple trail cam shots from 2018 (never got a shot of any of them in the same location again … !).

As I noted in my first email, the time of year can influence where the deer are and what they are doing. So, where & what they are doing today may not be where & what they are doing in the spring, summer or fall. We have to locate the deer we want to hunt where they are the day/timeframe we are hunting them - and - where they are when we are hunting them. In addition, where they were last year in November might not be where they will be this November. This seems especially true in big woods (I am a glutton for punishment, so hunt the big woods in the western mountains of Maine every year).

I try to go into a property with optimism. If you don't think you will find any good sign … then you won't. And because I want to go after adult bucks, I look for good tracks (2"+ wide staggered hoofs with good strides) and good rubs (waist high or higher on trees with tine marks up to 5+ft + which can be 1" to 12" in diameter). If all I see are small deer tracks I will note the location as a possible buck rut destination … but otherwise don't give it any more time & effort.

BW 8 pt #1 1.JPG
PB cut 10 pt 1.JPG
New big buck 10-26 before sunset 1.JPG

Swamp buck 10-24 sanctuary exit.JPG
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