Has QDM been good for deer hunting? A different perspective!

[stash59]

I try to let bucks reach 3.

I think QdM is fantastic it gives bucks the ability to have a life and grow. To me a 1.5 year old is like a young dumb teenager without a intelligent thought. By 3 he has matured and can successfully thrive in his home range.

From a hunter perspective it's a challenge and gives bucks more time to create good genetics and pass those genetics in other areas creating a healthier long term herd. I'm a firm believer deer learn from other mature deer their mothers and mature bucks they follow around in batchelor groups the same way we learn from parents. Some intelligence I'm sure is built in instinctively.

I think some get too caught up in antler scores.

With proper management and antler restrictions most wmas could have healthy thriving herds. I've seen wmas do a complete 180 after restrictions were added. Going from a place people wouldn't hunt if you paid them to having a healthy population and herd. Without QdM this would not have happened.

It does work if they can keep out the poachers and trigger happy rednecks. I'm a big fan of QdM having seen it personally work. And wish more wmas would improve.

I'm all for new hunters harvesting a small buck or two and I am all for young buck tags being given to new hunters.

But to spend ones life killing many young bucks and does one after another is not helping the sport or the herds health. Most are not in need of food they just kill to keep others from enjoying Gods gift of nature. At some point it's wrong to abuse what the creator made. The game farm deer pumped full of chemicals are abominations in my mind.

I agree with alot of what your saying. But am confused by the statement I highlighted. From my limited study of genetics way back in high school. My understanding is an animal receives whatever genes it has at conception. And after birth, then reaching sexual maturity. Can only pass on those genes he got from his parents. No animal can create new/better genes just because they get to live to an older age. They pass on the only those genes they were born with. No matter how old they are!

Also is a deer herd healthier. Better suited to be resistant to diseases, able to utilized the available nutrition better. Just because more older bucks are available to breed!!

I do agree that having more older deer around can help them learn more about survival from predators, both animal and human. But that also relates to how much hunting pressure the whole herd is under. With little to no hunting pressure. Even older animals will know less than younger animals exposed to heavy hunting pressure.

[Tennhunter3]

I try to let bucks reach 3.

I think QdM is fantastic it gives bucks the ability to have a life and grow. To me a 1.5 year old is like a young dumb teenager without a intelligent thought. By 3 he has matured and can successfully thrive in his home range.

From a hunter perspective it's a challenge and gives bucks more time to create good genetics and pass those genetics in other areas creating a healthier long term herd. I'm a firm believer deer learn from other mature deer their mothers and mature bucks they follow around in batchelor groups the same way we learn from parents. Some intelligence I'm sure is built in instinctively.

I think some get too caught up in antler scores.

With proper management and antler restrictions most wmas could have healthy thriving herds. I've seen wmas do a complete 180 after restrictions were added. Going from a place people wouldn't hunt if you paid them to having a healthy population and herd. Without QdM this would not have happened.

It does work if they can keep out the poachers and trigger happy rednecks. I'm a big fan of QdM having seen it personally work. And wish more wmas would improve.

I'm all for new hunters harvesting a small buck or two and I am all for young buck tags being given to new hunters.

But to spend ones life killing many young bucks and does one after another is not helping the sport or the herds health. Most are not in need of food they just kill to keep others from enjoying Gods gift of nature. At some point it's wrong to abuse what the creator made. The game farm deer pumped full of chemicals are abominations in my mind.

I agree with alot of what your saying. But am confused by the statement I highlighted. From my limited study of genetics way back in high school. My understanding is an animal receives whatever genes it has at conception. And after birth, then reaching sexual maturity. Can only pass on those genes he got from his parents. No animal can create new/better genes just because they get to live to an older age. They pass on the only those genes they were born with. No matter how old they are!

Also is a deer herd healthier. Better suited to be resistant to diseases, able to utilized the available nutrition better. Just because more older bucks are available to breed!!

I do agree that having more older deer around can help them learn more about survival from predators, both animal and human. But that also relates to how much hunting pressure the whole herd is under. With little to no hunting pressure. Even older animals will know less than younger animals exposed to heavy hunting pressure.

I meant as far as antler genetics no I don't think they can create better Gene's except by breeding mixing their Gene's with another. But a buck that is healthy and has a typical healthy rack by living longer he can breed more does outside his range and create better genetics in lacking areas. Due to his healthy Gene's being half of the new born fawns. By living longer he gains the ability to possibly improve a lacking herd a mile or several miles away.

I do believe typical and non typical are genetic unless the typical is injured during the velvet. I do think if you introduce several typicals breeding does in a area with non typical bucks the new fawns will become typicals most likely.

A wma in Rural Alabama I read about had several bucks from Wisconsin added. Over the next 10 years the bucks in this wma and surrounding area were 17 pounds on average larger then other areas 30 miles away. They also grew more mass. True these were imported but it does show how a healthier or larger buck can breed a better herd. Did they need the extra body fat to survive Alabama winter no but the nutrients in that new area were enough to hold that body weight long term. And nutrients were enough to improve the entire herd gaining more weight. This proved that healthy bucks traveling to new areas to breed can improve a area miles away.

As far as nutrition theres far more nutrition then deer need in most parts of the country. I'm sure pockets exist nutrition may be a issue. As far as desieses I think it's mostly luck. Though a healthier herd with proper food may get enough nutrients from plants they eat to fight some desieses. Ehd good chance of death either way.


As far as young animals being exposed to pressure currently they see pressure once and are shot. They get very little time alive to learn from other deer or learn about their instincts and abilitys. I believe it takes young bucks 3-4 years to learn how to use wind based bedding. The young bucks bed with or near their mothers then branch out and often bed on wrong facing slopes at 2 years of age . Until they eventually learn and bed in the proper bedding areas on the right wind currents. For some bucks they may learn this at 2 others 4 some may never learn. I do know the longer a buck gets to survive the better he learns to survive in his environment.

How they find this area is up could be several ways.
Following another mature buck or batchelor group.
By smell of another buck.
By eventually figuring out if they lay in this spot they smell the area they think danger will come from.

Perhaps some bucks never learn to use their nose to the best of its ability though they would be killed off anyway.


As far as older bucks in non pressured areas that are not around pressure true they do get accepting and trusting that their core is safe. Their bedding using the right wind but do not perceive hunters as a huge threat until that hunter leaves scent or has contact in some way. I do think they hold the intelligence by this age that if they survive the encounter they will quickly adapt.

A young buck on public would be alert only if he survives the first encounters most do not . The difference between these is the older buck has a better ability to understand wind currents and which smells are of danger where the young buck does not know how to properly use his nose for survival. If young bucks could understand their nose their would be far more older age bucks in wmas currently.

[DaveT1963]

The biggest negative that I have witnessed over time, and perhaps it is just my perspective living in a state that has fully embraced QDM, is this, with the rise of it much of the private land that used to be available became closed to most hunters. I firmly believe this has been the leading contributing factor to declining overall hunting numbers. 40 years ago I could knock on door and get hunting privileges frequently, today it is all but impossible. It is big business in TX and with public land being so scarce, kids are turning to other sports/hobbies as fewer dads have access.

[EllieTheChubb]

The biggest negative that I have witnessed over time, and perhaps it is just my perspective living in a state that has fully embraced QDM, is this, with the rise of it much of the private land that used to be available became closed to most hunters. I firmly believe this has been the leading contributing factor to declining overall hunting numbers. 40 years ago I could knock on door and get hunting privileges frequently, today it is all but impossible. It is big business in TX and with public land being so scarce, kids are turning to other sports/hobbies as fewer dads have access.

I have never put much thought into qdm. if what you say is true that more land is getting posted because of it I think its a horrible thing. Hunting is an american tradition and shouldnt become an exclusive club activity for landowners. It sounds like a slippery slope to the European system.

[raisins]

We like to think that by leaving the immature bucks live, we are only allowing the older bucks to breed, and thus always passing down only the best genes. But if this is the case. Where did all of the exceptional genes we now see present in today's bucks come from? Wouldn't they have been lost/washed out, because for decades deer hunters were killing most of the bucks before they reached maturity. So I ask does it make a difference to the health of the herd. Even to the gene pool. If a buck passes down his genes when he's 1.5YO or 6.5YO?

You can't impact genetics in a wild situation. Not in the slightest. Half the genes are from mom and half are from dad and dad's half are the same no matter his age. And despite what we think, the most successful bucks only breed a few does per year and those young bucks (1-2) get roughly a quarter of the does themselves.

Correct that bucks don't get "big buck" genes simply from age.

The potential is there from birth in their DNA.

However, selectively removing from the gene pool bucks that have bad genetics (if that can be reliably determined) can certainly modify things. And only going after bucks with "big buck" genetics will tend to make the inferior bucks more likely to breed than they would under normal situations. Thankfully, by the time a buck is old enough to express his superior antler genetics, then he has already bred several times as a younger buck.

[raisins]

The biggest negative that I have witnessed over time, and perhaps it is just my perspective living in a state that has fully embraced QDM, is this, with the rise of it much of the private land that used to be available became closed to most hunters. I firmly believe this has been the leading contributing factor to declining overall hunting numbers. 40 years ago I could knock on door and get hunting privileges frequently, today it is all but impossible. It is big business in TX and with public land being so scarce, kids are turning to other sports/hobbies as fewer dads have access.

This is true in WV for precisely the opposite reason: gross mismanagement of deer on public land (5 buck tags per year until recently, no antler restrictions in most areas, an idea that the main way to manage deer is to kill more does, a DNR that pretty much openly admits that they craft game laws in order to fund their organization, and one of the least discriminating hunting population in the country)

As a result, outside of the 4 counties that are bow only or very deep public land spots....the only chance a typical bowhunter has here to reliably take trophy bucks is buy/lease land or go to a hunting club. I checked in my area and people are trying to lease 20 acre pieces for several thousand per year, which is insane.

[raisins]

I try to let bucks reach 3.

I think QdM is fantastic it gives bucks the ability to have a life and grow. To me a 1.5 year old is like a young dumb teenager without a intelligent thought. By 3 he has matured and can successfully thrive in his home range.

From a hunter perspective it's a challenge and gives bucks more time to create good genetics and pass those genetics in other areas creating a healthier long term herd. I'm a firm believer deer learn from other mature deer their mothers and mature bucks they follow around in batchelor groups the same way we learn from parents. Some intelligence I'm sure is built in instinctively.

I think some get too caught up in antler scores.

With proper management and antler restrictions most wmas could have healthy thriving herds. I've seen wmas do a complete 180 after restrictions were added. Going from a place people wouldn't hunt if you paid them to having a healthy population and herd. Without QdM this would not have happened.

It does work if they can keep out the poachers and trigger happy rednecks. I'm a big fan of QdM having seen it personally work. And wish more wmas would improve.

I'm all for new hunters harvesting a small buck or two and I am all for young buck tags being given to new hunters.

But to spend ones life killing many young bucks and does one after another is not helping the sport or the herds health. Most are not in need of food they just kill to keep others from enjoying Gods gift of nature. At some point it's wrong to abuse what the creator made. The game farm deer pumped full of chemicals are abominations in my mind.

I agree with alot of what your saying. But am confused by the statement I highlighted. From my limited study of genetics way back in high school. My understanding is an animal receives whatever genes it has at conception. And after birth, then reaching sexual maturity. Can only pass on those genes he got from his parents. No animal can create new/better genes just because they get to live to an older age. They pass on the only those genes they were born with. No matter how old they are!

Also is a deer herd healthier. Better suited to be resistant to diseases, able to utilized the available nutrition better. Just because more older bucks are available to breed!!

I do agree that having more older deer around can help them learn more about survival from predators, both animal and human. But that also relates to how much hunting pressure the whole herd is under. With little to no hunting pressure. Even older animals will know less than younger animals exposed to heavy hunting pressure.

This is true outside of any mutations in the sperm or eggs of the animal, those can get passed on.

There is also a new field of epigenetics where it is shown that molecules that bond to the outside of the DNA double helix during an animals life can influence gene expression and also be passed on. These changes are somewhat random.

Also, don't forget that the genes of does can influence the antlers of their male offspring (like a woman inheriting a large bra size from her dad's mother).

[Jonny]

The biggest negative that I have witnessed over time, and perhaps it is just my perspective living in a state that has fully embraced QDM, is this, with the rise of it much of the private land that used to be available became closed to most hunters. I firmly believe this has been the leading contributing factor to declining overall hunting numbers. 40 years ago I could knock on door and get hunting privileges frequently, today it is all but impossible. It is big business in TX and with public land being so scarce, kids are turning to other sports/hobbies as fewer dads have access.

as a younger guy who has seen lots of others give up on the sport, this is what I see as well.

QDM is a double edged sword. Increases the quality of the herd but brings out the competitiveness of people to try and one up each other with a bigger buck. Super easy way imo to get kids more hooked on hunting is to try and increase herd numbers. Only complaints I hear (outside of on the computer) are about lack of sightings and growing frustration. Nobody is going to quit hunting because they see 8 deer a sit and can’t shoot any of them. People quit because they have 6 tags and see nothing all season.

I see plenty of deer for where I hunt, but I’ve also put a lot of miles and hours of not seeing crap to figure out where I should be. Not everybody wants to do that

[jkelley1487]

The biggest negative that I have witnessed over time, and perhaps it is just my perspective living in a state that has fully embraced QDM, is this, with the rise of it much of the private land that used to be available became closed to most hunters. I firmly believe this has been the leading contributing factor to declining overall hunting numbers. 40 years ago I could knock on door and get hunting privileges frequently, today it is all but impossible. It is big business in TX and with public land being so scarce, kids are turning to other sports/hobbies as fewer dads have access.

Agree. The loss of access to hunting land seems to be the biggest killer of hunter numbers. There's always public land but unless you're a diehard, most people shy away from it.

[Boogieman1]

The biggest negative that I have witnessed over time, and perhaps it is just my perspective living in a state that has fully embraced QDM, is this, with the rise of it much of the private land that used to be available became closed to most hunters. I firmly believe this has been the leading contributing factor to declining overall hunting numbers. 40 years ago I could knock on door and get hunting privileges frequently, today it is all but impossible. It is big business in TX and with public land being so scarce, kids are turning to other sports/hobbies as fewer dads have access.

as a younger guy who has seen lots of others give up on the sport, this is what I see as well.

QDM is a double edged sword. Increases the quality of the herd but brings out the competitiveness of people to try and one up each other with a bigger buck. Super easy way imo to get kids more hooked on hunting is to try and increase herd numbers. Only complaints I hear (outside of on the computer) are about lack of sightings and growing frustration. Nobody is going to quit hunting because they see 8 deer a sit and can’t shoot any of them. People quit because they have 6 tags and see nothing all season.

I see plenty of deer for where I hunt, but I’ve also put a lot of miles and hours of not seeing crap to figure out where I should be. Not everybody wants to do that

I agree with both what Dave said and you Johnny. Fishing is booming in newcomer numbers. Feel mainly cause it’s a lot easier to find a quality place to fish.

[Jonny]

The biggest negative that I have witnessed over time, and perhaps it is just my perspective living in a state that has fully embraced QDM, is this, with the rise of it much of the private land that used to be available became closed to most hunters. I firmly believe this has been the leading contributing factor to declining overall hunting numbers. 40 years ago I could knock on door and get hunting privileges frequently, today it is all but impossible. It is big business in TX and with public land being so scarce, kids are turning to other sports/hobbies as fewer dads have access.

as a younger guy who has seen lots of others give up on the sport, this is what I see as well.

QDM is a double edged sword. Increases the quality of the herd but brings out the competitiveness of people to try and one up each other with a bigger buck. Super easy way imo to get kids more hooked on hunting is to try and increase herd numbers. Only complaints I hear (outside of on the computer) are about lack of sightings and growing frustration. Nobody is going to quit hunting because they see 8 deer a sit and can’t shoot any of them. People quit because they have 6 tags and see nothing all season.

I see plenty of deer for where I hunt, but I’ve also put a lot of miles and hours of not seeing crap to figure out where I should be. Not everybody wants to do that

I agree with both what Dave said and you Johnny. Fishing is booming in newcomer numbers. Feel mainly cause it’s a lot easier to find a quality place to fish.

Exactly. Super easy to access any lake you want. I can get anybody on great walleye fishing by me and all they need is something that floats to sit in, a handful of jigs and some garden worms.

Hunting isn’t that easy to get going.

[Lu Rome]

We like to think that by leaving the immature bucks live, we are only allowing the older bucks to breed, and thus always passing down only the best genes. But if this is the case. Where did all of the exceptional genes we now see present in today's bucks come from? Wouldn't they have been lost/washed out, because for decades deer hunters were killing most of the bucks before they reached maturity. So I ask does it make a difference to the health of the herd. Even to the gene pool. If a buck passes down his genes when he's 1.5YO or 6.5YO?

You can't impact genetics in a wild situation. Not in the slightest. Half the genes are from mom and half are from dad and dad's half are the same no matter his age. And despite what we think, the most successful bucks only breed a few does per year and those young bucks (1-2) get roughly a quarter of the does themselves.

Correct that bucks don't get "big buck" genes simply from age.

The potential is there from birth in their DNA.

However, selectively removing from the gene pool bucks that have bad genetics (if that can be reliably determined) can certainly modify things. And only going after bucks with "big buck" genetics will tend to make the inferior bucks more likely to breed than they would under normal situations. Thankfully, by the time a buck is old enough to express his superior antler genetics, then he has already bred several times as a younger buck.

You need to read what they did on the Comanche Ranch: https://www.qdma.com/qdm-works-culling-doesnt/

I wish they would publish the final findings of that study so I could link that instead of a QDMA article.

You can impact the "standing crop" of buck by removing the lower potential ones, but you aren't impacting the genetics of the herd overall. Quit culling (removing the lower producing bucks) and you'll be right where you were previous to culling.

[mspaci]

QDMA, rich guys w lots of land telling me dont shoot a small buck so I can shoot a big one later. Shoot what you want & have fun. Qdma takes alot of fun out of hunting for alot of ppl. I like big bucks too, but when the mood strikes me you just never know. Its ok too, I only compete w myself. I got a buddy who hasnt shot many deer & when he gets a 4 pt he is on cloud 9, & I rather see this than get one myself. Mike

The only time I ever have an issue with someone shooting small bucks is when they start to complain about never killing big bucks.

I have friends that shoot multiple young bucks every year and complain about never killing big bucks.

Roger Raglin said it best. You’ll never kill a Boone & Crocket if you keep killing those darn Boone & Crickets.

Lets be clear, I didn't say I wanted to shoot small bucks all the time or that I complain about not seeing big bucks. I'm saying its rich guys ruining hunting for everyone else. Land being leased out, & I DO NOT like being told what I have to do. Its my choice. Guys that haven't been shooting a lot of deer being shamed by those guys for shooting a small buck. Guys believing they failed for it too. A lot of negatives for me with QDMA. Bad attitudes IMO. I'm always happy for a hunter no matter what they shoot, its their choice. Ill say no more

[Dewey]

QDMA, rich guys w lots of land telling me dont shoot a small buck so I can shoot a big one later. Shoot what you want & have fun. Qdma takes alot of fun out of hunting for alot of ppl. I like big bucks too, but when the mood strikes me you just never know. Its ok too, I only compete w myself. I got a buddy who hasnt shot many deer & when he gets a 4 pt he is on cloud 9, & I rather see this than get one myself. Mike

The only time I ever have an issue with someone shooting small bucks is when they start to complain about never killing big bucks.

I have friends that shoot multiple young bucks every year and complain about never killing big bucks.

Roger Raglin said it best. You’ll never kill a Boone & Crocket if you keep killing those darn Boone & Crickets.

Lets be clear, I didn't say I wanted to shoot small bucks all the time or that I complain about not seeing big bucks. I'm saying its rich guys ruining hunting for everyone else. Land being leased out, & I DO NOT like being told what I have to do. Its my choice. Guys that haven't been shooting a lot of deer being shamed by those guys for shooting a small buck. Guys believing they failed for it too. A lot of negatives for me with QDMA. Bad attitudes IMO. I'm always happy for a hunter no matter what they shoot, its their choice. Ill say no more

I'm totally happy as well for anybody that kills a buck no matter what the size is as long as they are happy about it. The point being made is the guys that kill small bucks and aren't happy about them doing it just to say they filled a tag is a shame. Shoot what you want and be totally thrilled about the kill. If your not excited about killing the animal DON'T pull the trigger.

[mspaci]

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