The Hunting Beast

Huntress13 wrote:

EllieTheChubb wrote:

Aaron1987 wrote:

Redman232 wrote:

Aaron1987 wrote:

EllieTheChubb wrote:

Dewey wrote:You guys are WAY overthinking this stuff.

My local bow guru's take on adult arrows: "how far do you want the arrow to stick in the ground after it goes through the deer?"

The main reason why THP switched to single bevel heavier arrows is because of all the ground hunting they do. For the average stand hunter its just not necessary. That said its fun to play around with your tackle. Am I going to do an arrow overhaul? No. That said anything that gets people thinking about their gear and shooting more is good for the sport.

Actually we switched because of situations that happened from a tree. We’ve seen multiple deflections on broadside shots with light arrows and mechanicals. Obviously this doesn’t happen every time but on 3 separate occasions in the past 4 years arrows have deflected either off the scapula or a rib. We also have seen footage of many similar issues with light setups.

To each their own of course. If it works for you, don’t change. These are just our experiences. All issues came on fully grown mature bucks with heavier bone structure.

This is why I switched, a 120 lbs field dressed doe, is a completely different animal than a 200+ lbs dressed out buck. The weight difference is all muscle mass and bone density. I hunted with a 375-425 gr setup for 15+ years. I never ran into any major issues with does or any of the small bucks I killed (a few slight deflections that i can recall). I arrowed 5 mature bucks in that time frame. 3 died, 2 were not recovered. None were pass throughs. All more or less broadside shots(Slight quartering to angle on a couple). Seems like everyone blasted out of the gate like their hind end was on fire. The last one was a 10 yard shot, slightly quartering to me. I hit the front side shoulder blade, got 8" of penetration and never found any blood after 50 yds. I only picked up my arrow that night and to my knowledge did not jump that deer. I looked for 4 days afterwards and 2 full days that winter. Never found that deer, and I'm not convinced my broadhead ever entered the body cavity. That winter i made the change to a 550 gr setup with 17% FOC. I wish the Ranch Fairy channel was around then, it would have saved me a ton of tinkering.

Since switching, every shot has been a pass through and into the dirt on the other side. 4 of the 5 have mule kicked and trotted 20-40 yds and dropped. I realize this is all anecdotal evidence. Arrow trajectory was not effected much, I still only shoot 2 pins, 30 and 40 yards. If you're running up past 600 gr maybe then it's like throwing an axe, but I haven't seen any downside to the change I made. Generally I feel like all the tinkering with equipment is wasted effort, when a lack of focus on deer behavior, scouting and setups is why most people aren't successful (In my opinion anyways). But this is one that I've personally seen and feel has made a big difference for me.

Your experience is almost identical to ours. Most of us shot fast setups with mechanicals for a long time as well before switching to this.

So for someone already shooting a mid weight arrow ~500g like me. Do you guys think that is still too light? I dont have much experience on big bucks but have seen some compelling results on does. As an example this fall I shot a young doe on a steep angle and shot through the spine and actually penetrated into the heart with no deflection. I know thats a much softer target compared to a 175#+ buck with denser bone, more fat and muscle but that still seems like a heck of a wollop.

I really think it depends on all of your specs. Somebody with a 26" draw is going to be a lot different than somebody with a 30" draw. And somebody pulling 70 lb is going to be different than somebody shooting 50 lb. So you have to factor in more than just arrow weight. I'm shooting 25" draw at 50 lbs, so a 650 grain arrow would not be practical because the arrow speed would be about 150 fps and about 32 foot pounds momentum. A 500 grain arrow gives me about 200 fps and 42 foot pounds momentum. I can tell you from experience when I was shooting a lighter arrow, 32 foot pounds is only enough to get the job done with perfect shot placement on a larger size deer. So, all that to say, you need to look at your setup and figure out what your acceptable speed and momentum is going to be. You can get a general estimate by looking at "grains per pound" instead of simply by arrow weight. 10 grains per pound of draw weight is a "middle of the road" arrow for traditional archers, and would be considered heavy for modern carbon compound shooters.

The_Real_Jmill wrote:

ThePreBanMan wrote:

The_Real_Jmill wrote:

ThePreBanMan wrote:

The_Real_Jmill wrote:I will say all hunters should use whatever hunting setup floats their boat as long as they are proficient and it is legal.

But I do find it intriguing so many are jumping on the wagon to completely overhaul their arrow setups for whitetail. Maybe somebody is better versed than me in deer anatomy but do we actually know what percentage of a whitetails vitals are covered by the socket/humerus/scapula? Looking online leads me to believe it is a very small percentage, so while some may find a benefit in penetration I think most will be let down by the results of this complete overhaul in equipment, dead is dead as long as the shot is where it should be.

There is no magic in heavy arrow setups, yes they penetrate better but the hunter still has to do their part making an accurate and ethical shot.

In a perfect world where the animal is perfectly broadside, unobstructed, not moving, doesn't jump the string, etc... Sure. Heavy, high FoC arrows really aren't going to help in perfect situations like that. They're for situations like quartering to shots, or partially obstructed shots where the only angle at both lungs is through the shoulder, or for when we make a mistake and hit "a little too far forward". When everything goes absolutely perfect, even a light arrow with a field point will kill a deer. But that's not what we're discussing.

You say perfect and I would say ethical.

I don't take quartering too shots or shots where deer are moving or vitals are obstructed and I don't think anyone should regardless of setup, but to each their own. I've only ever taken broadside and quartering away and all within 25 yards, this is what I was taught and it has served me well in my 15+ years of bow hunting.

If altering equipment is to make up for poor decision making/shot attempts then it is being done for the wrong reason.

Accidents happen but a low percentage shot is a low percentage shot.

No magic in this game, just smart well placed shots.

If you only take "ethical" shots at animals at close range presenting wide-open unobstructed broadside shots while never moving, you must not have killed many deer in that 15 years of hunting. Regardless of what one person considers "ethical" or not, in the real world ____ happens as they say. As Dr. Ashby's roughly 30 years of study have scientifically shown, when it does happen and you hit that bone, you want that weight and you want it up front.

Physics don't lie son...

So were at the point in the discussion where you have to talk down to me and question my hunting success??

FWIW I've killed 40+ in those 15 years, all of which (including the two bucks in my avatar shot 30 min apart on a heavily hunted piece of public land) gave me "perfect" broadside/quartering away unobstructed shots.

I've had to let plenty of deer walk, but I owe it to the animal not to take a low percentage shot.

I still stand by what I said take high percentage ethical shots and it really doesn't matter with the right equipment setup, take poor low percentage shots and expect poor results.

matt1336 wrote:

The_Real_Jmill wrote:

ThePreBanMan wrote:

The_Real_Jmill wrote:

ThePreBanMan wrote:

The_Real_Jmill wrote:I will say all hunters should use whatever hunting setup floats their boat as long as they are proficient and it is legal.

But I do find it intriguing so many are jumping on the wagon to completely overhaul their arrow setups for whitetail. Maybe somebody is better versed than me in deer anatomy but do we actually know what percentage of a whitetails vitals are covered by the socket/humerus/scapula? Looking online leads me to believe it is a very small percentage, so while some may find a benefit in penetration I think most will be let down by the results of this complete overhaul in equipment, dead is dead as long as the shot is where it should be.

There is no magic in heavy arrow setups, yes they penetrate better but the hunter still has to do their part making an accurate and ethical shot.

In a perfect world where the animal is perfectly broadside, unobstructed, not moving, doesn't jump the string, etc... Sure. Heavy, high FoC arrows really aren't going to help in perfect situations like that. They're for situations like quartering to shots, or partially obstructed shots where the only angle at both lungs is through the shoulder, or for when we make a mistake and hit "a little too far forward". When everything goes absolutely perfect, even a light arrow with a field point will kill a deer. But that's not what we're discussing.

You say perfect and I would say ethical.

I don't take quartering too shots or shots where deer are moving or vitals are obstructed and I don't think anyone should regardless of setup, but to each their own. I've only ever taken broadside and quartering away and all within 25 yards, this is what I was taught and it has served me well in my 15+ years of bow hunting.

If altering equipment is to make up for poor decision making/shot attempts then it is being done for the wrong reason.

Accidents happen but a low percentage shot is a low percentage shot.

No magic in this game, just smart well placed shots.

If you only take "ethical" shots at animals at close range presenting wide-open unobstructed broadside shots while never moving, you must not have killed many deer in that 15 years of hunting. Regardless of what one person considers "ethical" or not, in the real world ____ happens as they say. As Dr. Ashby's roughly 30 years of study have scientifically shown, when it does happen and you hit that bone, you want that weight and you want it up front.

Physics don't lie son...

So were at the point in the discussion where you have to talk down to me and question my hunting success??

FWIW I've killed 40+ in those 15 years, all of which (including the two bucks in my avatar shot 30 min apart on a heavily hunted piece of public land) gave me "perfect" broadside/quartering away unobstructed shots.

I've had to let plenty of deer walk, but I owe it to the animal not to take a low percentage shot.

I still stand by what I said take high percentage ethical shots and it really doesn't matter with the right equipment setup, take poor low percentage shots and expect poor results.

Guy, chill. You’re insinuating that those of us that like the quartering to shot are not ethical hunters because you’re calling that shot unethical. You’re experience might be questioned because of your insistence on any shot that’s not what the tv guys say should be taken, should be taken. IMO that’s where preban is coming from. Ik that’s my take on this.
Myself and some others here are telling you that the quartering to shot is deadly but you need to know what you’re doing. You can argue all you want. It’s a deadly shot. I have lots of first hand experience on the matter. So just keep it there. We will continue to shoot, kill and see these deer die within 50 yards...that’s my experience. You can continue to pass on these shots. I’m good with that. More deer for me to kill and eat. Good luck working on #41.

Mathewshooter wrote:I tried watching his videos several times. I get about halfway through them and have to turn them off. He's too much of a toolbag for me. He acts like anyone who questions him is a dumb hick.

crankn101 wrote:

AppalachianArcher wrote:

crankn101 wrote:Youre trading trajectory for penetration.

Penetration wont matter when youre hitting too high and too low. Its cool though, you can brag about penetration while grid searching for a deer thats alive the next day and 800 yards away...

You do realize that regardless of arrow weight, you still have to practice with what you shoot. If you practice and your setup is sighted in, trajectory isn't going to make your arrow hit higher or lower.

If youre shooting at a feeder its perfect but most people dont hunt from a feeder and wild animals seem to move frequently.

How many times have you seen on video "I ranged him at XX but he angled away more than I thought and was at XX when I released" resulting in a bad or no hit? Now add more "arch" and that multiplies the chances at a bad hit.

There is a reason most of the bigger 3D tournaments have a FPS limit. Its almost like speed has an advantage in accuracy when shooting at unknown distances.

Bowhunting Brian wrote:
How much "arch" do you think Levi Morgan and Lee Lakisky have when they shoot game from 60 to 100 yards away?

ThePreBanMan wrote:

Bowhunting Brian wrote:
How much "arch" do you think Levi Morgan and Lee Lakisky have when they shoot game from 60 to 100 yards away?

Well, first, their shots that go poorly never make it onto TV. Let's remember that. They're on TV to sell you the products that sponsor their show. Not to give you an honest representation of hunting.

Second, they "hunt" on their 1500 acre high fenced private land in Iowa, over dedicated "food" plots. Food plots which many would call bait. A distinction without a difference.

3rd. Tiffany isn't taking 60-yard shots with her cute little pink bow at a 24" draw.

Using "The Crush", or any hunting show for that matter as any kind of reference is a very bad idea. That's like saying "Long Island is representative of all American neighborhoods".... until you wander into the Bronx and realize just how wrong you were... Or you take a stroll through Hollywood and think "this is wonderful, look how rich and happy everyone must be", and then you wonder into skid row...

Those shows have no representation of reality in them whatsoever.

Bowhunting Brian wrote:

ThePreBanMan wrote:

Bowhunting Brian wrote:
How much "arch" do you think Levi Morgan and Lee Lakisky have when they shoot game from 60 to 100 yards away?

Well, first, their shots that go poorly never make it onto TV. Let's remember that. They're on TV to sell you the products that sponsor their show. Not to give you an honest representation of hunting.

Second, they "hunt" on their 1500 acre high fenced private land in Iowa, over dedicated "food" plots. Food plots which many would call bait. A distinction without a difference.

3rd. Tiffany isn't taking 60-yard shots with her cute little pink bow at a 24" draw.

Using "The Crush", or any hunting show for that matter as any kind of reference is a very bad idea. That's like saying "Long Island is representative of all American neighborhoods".... until you wander into the Bronx and realize just how wrong you were... Or you take a stroll through Hollywood and think "this is wonderful, look how rich and happy everyone must be", and then you wonder into skid row...

Those shows have no representation of reality in them whatsoever.

I was referring to Lee's free range 88 yard kill shot at a Dall Sheep.

crankn101 wrote:

AppalachianArcher wrote:

crankn101 wrote:Youre trading trajectory for penetration.

Penetration wont matter when youre hitting too high and too low. Its cool though, you can brag about penetration while grid searching for a deer thats alive the next day and 800 yards away...

You do realize that regardless of arrow weight, you still have to practice with what you shoot. If you practice and your setup is sighted in, trajectory isn't going to make your arrow hit higher or lower.

If youre shooting at a feeder its perfect but most people dont hunt from a feeder and wild animals seem to move frequently.

How many times have you seen on video "I ranged him at XX but he angled away more than I thought and was at XX when I released" resulting in a bad or no hit? Now add more "arch" and that multiplies the chances at a bad hit.

There is a reason most of the bigger 3D tournaments have a FPS limit. Its almost like speed has an advantage in accuracy when shooting at unknown distances.

JShea wrote:

crankn101 wrote:

AppalachianArcher wrote:

crankn101 wrote:Youre trading trajectory for penetration.

Penetration wont matter when youre hitting too high and too low. Its cool though, you can brag about penetration while grid searching for a deer thats alive the next day and 800 yards away...

You do realize that regardless of arrow weight, you still have to practice with what you shoot. If you practice and your setup is sighted in, trajectory isn't going to make your arrow hit higher or lower.

If youre shooting at a feeder its perfect but most people dont hunt from a feeder and wild animals seem to move frequently.

How many times have you seen on video "I ranged him at XX but he angled away more than I thought and was at XX when I released" resulting in a bad or no hit? Now add more "arch" and that multiplies the chances at a bad hit.

There is a reason most of the bigger 3D tournaments have a FPS limit. Its almost like speed has an advantage in accuracy when shooting at unknown distances.

The reason there is a speed limit at archery shoots is to make it more competitive.
If Tim Gilligham has a 32" draw and Danny McCarthy is a 27" draw, Danny is giving up 50 fps if using same setup as Tim. 10 fps per inch of draw length. Anyone with a long draw length has a speed advantage whether bow hunting or unknown yardage target shooting.

crankn101 wrote:

JShea wrote:

crankn101 wrote:

AppalachianArcher wrote:

crankn101 wrote:Youre trading trajectory for penetration.

Penetration wont matter when youre hitting too high and too low. Its cool though, you can brag about penetration while grid searching for a deer thats alive the next day and 800 yards away...

You do realize that regardless of arrow weight, you still have to practice with what you shoot. If you practice and your setup is sighted in, trajectory isn't going to make your arrow hit higher or lower.

If youre shooting at a feeder its perfect but most people dont hunt from a feeder and wild animals seem to move frequently.

How many times have you seen on video "I ranged him at XX but he angled away more than I thought and was at XX when I released" resulting in a bad or no hit? Now add more "arch" and that multiplies the chances at a bad hit.

There is a reason most of the bigger 3D tournaments have a FPS limit. Its almost like speed has an advantage in accuracy when shooting at unknown distances.

The reason there is a speed limit at archery shoots is to make it more competitive.
If Tim Gilligham has a 32" draw and Danny McCarthy is a 27" draw, Danny is giving up 50 fps if using same setup as Tim. 10 fps per inch of draw length. Anyone with a long draw length has a speed advantage whether bow hunting or unknown yardage target shooting.

Thank you for agreeing with me, it really is common sense.

mauser06 wrote:Boy! The off season is hitting the huntingbeast forum fast and hard!




At the end of the day, shoot what works for YOU!