THP Broadhead Podcasts

[fletchdeep]

That study isn't scientific and is fundamentally flawed IMHO. It doesn't eliminate any variables in the "testing". It's really not even a test as much as it is some compiled statistics. It's not an apples to apples comparison. What were the draw lengths of the fixed blade shooters vs mechanical? Arrow weights? What about FOC? Average shot distance? What were the draw weights? Who had modern equipment vs early 1990s compounds, etc. The number of hunters in each pool was also drastically different and that directly impacts averages. They only sampled 26 mechanical shooters against 119 fixed blade shooters? The differences in previously stated variables would cause huge swings in the result averages with such a small sample pool. There's one thing that is always true when statistics are involved... Garbage in = garbage out.

The authoritative study on the topic - IMHO - is Dr. Ashby's study. That is apples to apples. Specifically, that study (an actual scientific study with actual testing, not just compiled statistics) shows, irrefutably, that when all things are equal (arrow weight, draw weight, draw length, FOC, fletching, distance to target, bow/equipment, etc) that fixed blade broadheads and specifically single bevel heads, penetrate better, maintain their integrity better and punch through bone better. In fact there was not a category in which a mechanical outperformed a 2 blade single bevel head on actual game animals. Sure the mechanical cuts WIDER but the fixed blade cuts DEEPER. Now measure the surface area of the wound channel produced by each and guess what, the single bevel fixed head cut more tissue.

The study also found that arrows with high FoC outperformed arrows of the same weight with lower FoC. But that there were diminishing returns with FoC above 19% (the sweet spot). It also found that heavy arrows outperform lighter arrows on game. The best performing combo on game was a heavy arrow with FoC at 19% with a single bevel fixed blade head.

I'm not trying to demonize anyone who chooses a mechanical based on it... Hey - use what you like. But make sure you call the ball with eyes wide open... Mechanicals are a pro shop's best friend. They can just eyeball the "tune" with a bow square, sell the dude some mechanicals with it so his BHs hit with FPs and ship it. Saves them a ton of time. Getting FBBHs to impact with FPs requires a lot of time/work to properly tune. Time is money... That's why pro shops are so quick to sling mechanicals at folks.

My opinion is worth what you paid to read it, but there it is...

Ashby's studies were also done with a recurve, because as he stated in his kifarucast podcast they used an older darton compound bow and everything became a passthrough. Hard to measure penetration issues when the arrows don't get stopped. My takeaway being, if you are going out with a trad bow then yes use the Ashby system, if you have a modern compound you have a lot more flexibility.

[crankn101]

One of the hunting public guys made a follow up shot on his deer and the arrow got maybe half of an arrow penetration, why is that? I thought heavy arrows with small heads blow through everything? He also hit way high because he didnt have trust in his set up and yardage estimating. That all plays into it but all people say is ashby this and ashby that without realizing its a double edge sword. Not everyone is shooting pigs at a feeder or giraffes from a hut.

That guy was me. I panicked on the 2nd shot you mention in the heat of the moment, mis judged the yardage, and the deer moved at the sound therefore hitting him high. The arrow went through multiple vertebrae along the spine before lodging in the backbone between the deer’s neck and head.

Only reason I took that 40 yard follow up was because the deer had been hit already. Would not take a shot past 30 on a whitetail under other circumstances. Ashby didn’t only shoot giraffes. He shot wild game across the world noting near 2000 total animals in his study if I’m not mistaken. I could be wrong but think that’s what I remember.

Reason why we switched was because we’d lost some deer due to deflections. Also had several long track jobs on marginally hit deer due to deflection. We killed many with light setups as well but believe our current setup is slightly better for our situation and style of hunting.

Jake shot a deer you guys thought would be dead within an hour and it was alive the next morning and 800 yards?? from where it was shot. Did the small head help or hurt in that scenario? It will be interesting to see how this unfolds throughout the years.

Like I said before, its a double edge sword with pros and cons. I dont mean to be rude or come off like im talking trash, youtube videos are the only hunting videos I can watch anymore and yours are right up there with the best.

[Thesouthpaw]

One of the hunting public guys made a follow up shot on his deer and the arrow got maybe half of an arrow penetration, why is that? I thought heavy arrows with small heads blow through everything? He also hit way high because he didnt have trust in his set up and yardage estimating. That all plays into it but all people say is ashby this and ashby that without realizing its a double edge sword. Not everyone is shooting pigs at a feeder or giraffes from a hut.

That guy was me. I panicked on the 2nd shot you mention in the heat of the moment, mis judged the yardage, and the deer moved at the sound therefore hitting him high. The arrow went through multiple vertebrae along the spine before lodging in the backbone between the deer’s neck and head.

Only reason I took that 40 yard follow up was because the deer had been hit already. Would not take a shot past 30 on a whitetail under other circumstances. Ashby didn’t only shoot giraffes. He shot wild game across the world noting near 2000 total animals in his study if I’m not mistaken. I could be wrong but think that’s what I remember.

Reason why we switched was because we’d lost some deer due to deflections. Also had several long track jobs on marginally hit deer due to deflection. We killed many with light setups as well but believe our current setup is slightly better for our situation and style of hunting.

Jake shot a deer you guys thought would be dead within an hour and it was alive the next morning and 800 yards?? from where it was shot. Did the small head help or hurt in that scenario? It will be interesting to see how this unfolds throughout the years.

Like I said before, its a double edge sword with pros and cons. I dont mean to be rude or come off like im talking trash, youtube videos are the only hunting videos I can watch anymore and yours are right up there with the best.

If I remember correctly, that was a single lung hit, which is bad with pretty much any head. I single lunged a buck with a rage a few years ago, and that deer made it a loooong ways. It was dead when I got to it the next morning, but it hadn't been dead long.

[Aaron1987]

I shoot killzones with a heavy arrow. I’ve had penetration issues with them with lighter arrows. And I have a short draw. I basically started upping weight until pass throughs became the norm.

I choose a bigger cutting diameter over a smaller because most of my bad shots are usually guts and liver. The bottom of the shoulder blade and knuckle are the only heavy bone on a whitetail I’m worried about and they make up a very small percentage of possible hit locations.
Even spine shots I really don’t have issues with while using killzones, I just get a second arrow in as soon as possible.

With a gut/liver shot I’ll take a larger hole any day of the week.

I guess if I was having issues hitting the shoulder repeatedly I’d probably shoot a smaller fixed blade, but that’s just hasn’t proven to be the case for me.

I shoot rage trypans for the same reason. I have a tendency to shoot farther back more often than forward and that 2 inch cut helps a ton! My current setup is 450 grains, 288 fps with 16% foc and I've never had a penetration problem with deer or hogs.

I have had the same problem in the past. Shooting to far back.
I was afraid to aim at the best part of the kill zone because of the shoulder covering it.
I started shooting QAD exodus and aiming for the spot where the heart and lungs attach and I’m not going back.

QAD shoot as good as the grim reapers, rage and wasp I have shot and another advantage is I have shot 6 deer with one pack of them and after a few minutes on a diamond stone they are like new.

Not quite single bevel but a big improvement over the other heads I’ve used.

I shot these heads as well for a few years and had great luck. Especially with my arrow flight. Killed a bull elk and four bucks with the Exodus.

[crankn101]

I wont argue what was hit, I still say one lung and liver. The people that were there know what happened and how they truly felt in that situation at that moment and it wasnt all rainbows with a single bevel resting in a pot of gold.

You cant admit a 2" hole through one lung is better than 1" through one lung? Thats the issue to me, pros and cons...

[Aaron1987]

One of the hunting public guys made a follow up shot on his deer and the arrow got maybe half of an arrow penetration, why is that? I thought heavy arrows with small heads blow through everything? He also hit way high because he didnt have trust in his set up and yardage estimating. That all plays into it but all people say is ashby this and ashby that without realizing its a double edge sword. Not everyone is shooting pigs at a feeder or giraffes from a hut.

That guy was me. I panicked on the 2nd shot you mention in the heat of the moment, mis judged the yardage, and the deer moved at the sound therefore hitting him high. The arrow went through multiple vertebrae along the spine before lodging in the backbone between the deer’s neck and head.

Only reason I took that 40 yard follow up was because the deer had been hit already. Would not take a shot past 30 on a whitetail under other circumstances. Ashby didn’t only shoot giraffes. He shot wild game across the world noting near 2000 total animals in his study if I’m not mistaken. I could be wrong but think that’s what I remember.

Reason why we switched was because we’d lost some deer due to deflections. Also had several long track jobs on marginally hit deer due to deflection. We killed many with light setups as well but believe our current setup is slightly better for our situation and style of hunting.

Jake shot a deer you guys thought would be dead within an hour and it was alive the next morning and 800 yards?? from where it was shot. Did the small head help or hurt in that scenario? It will be interesting to see how this unfolds throughout the years.

Like I said before, its a double edge sword with pros and cons. I dont mean to be rude or come off like im talking trash, youtube videos are the only hunting videos I can watch anymore and yours are right up there with the best.

Hey no worries at all. These are good discussions.

Jake's buck was alive you are correct. Because of the angle, he only hit one lung on entry. The shot looks much better on video than in reality. We also had a similar scenario happen on Jake's Iowa buck from 2018. He was shooting a Rage on that deer and it survived almost the entire night on a 1 lung/liver hit. It's not apples to apples from these two situations as the buck with the Rage was quartering toward Jake and the buck from last fall was broadside. One thing that was consistent was both blood trails were difficult to follow. Shot placement is always the number 1 factor.

We've all shot and killed deer with both ends of the spectrum and at this point, each of us has more confidence in the heavier arrows with higher FOC and COC heads. There will always be some tradeoffs but for our style, we seem to have better luck with these setups.

Dog Trackers also played a huge role in the decision. They recorded hundreds of tracks throughout the fall on wounded deer and cited more were recovered with pass through hits than those were the arrow did not pass through. Regardless of the broadhead choice, their numbers concluded odds of a successful harvest go up with a pass through hit.

[raisins]

I watched the THP video last night and have seen a few Ranch Fairy videos in the past. I'm intrigued.... Sometimes the ability to confidently take a shoulder/quartering too angled shot can be a game changer. I've also seen some of the really odd rib deflection hits they talked about in the video, and found too many broken Grim Reaper blades on the inside of the chest cavity (offside, and on does mostly for some odd reason). My only concern would be lame blood trails if I switched to a single bevel type set up. I've only hunted with mechanicals, for all intents and purposes. Thread subscribed

I think it might be useful to debone some buck shoulders and for folks to try shooting the head of the humerus.

I'm just skeptical that everyone is breaking these.

As a kid, I had a 65 lbs Darton Yukon set at 30" and shooting full length aluminum arrows with a 3 blade 125 grain Muzzy. I always shot through deer and penetrated 1 spine and 1 shoulder on different deer.

I shot a deer and had it drop and start flailing around like 50 yards away. I didn't have a pin for that distance and so emptied my quiver by just estimating hold over. One arrow hit him right square in the femur. The arrow bounced off and only left a small indentation in the bone. The humerus is similar.

[ThePreBanMan]

Ashby's studies were also done with a recurve, because as he stated in his kifarucast podcast they used an older darton compound bow and everything became a passthrough. Hard to measure penetration issues when the arrows don't get stopped. My takeaway being, if you are going out with a trad bow then yes use the Ashby system, if you have a modern compound you have a lot more flexibility.

Did you read the work/study? What your saying doesn't match with what I've read. They tested in many various scenarios, ranges and on various game animals including on African Cape Buffalo and Rinos where even high caliber guns shooting solids don't get pass-throughs (he shot a 600 nitro express with a 300 grain solid). Not sure where you're getting the "everything was a pass-through" from. Maybe in a small sample of his work. But he put in almost 30 years of research. I think you're just glossing over maybe a bullet point or two and not giving it due diligence.

But if you still have doubts, the Ranch Fairy has tested his findings on over 1800 wild pigs he has personally killed himself. He's performed autopsies on them and shares his results on You Tube. You won't find him advocating mechanicals. You can also listen to him talk about it on a few podcasts he's done on Wired To Hunt and the DIYSportsman's podcast.

[Huntress13]

I watched the THP video last night and have seen a few Ranch Fairy videos in the past. I'm intrigued.... Sometimes the ability to confidently take a shoulder/quartering too angled shot can be a game changer. I've also seen some of the really odd rib deflection hits they talked about in the video, and found too many broken Grim Reaper blades on the inside of the chest cavity (offside, and on does mostly for some odd reason). My only concern would be lame blood trails if I switched to a single bevel type set up. I've only hunted with mechanicals, for all intents and purposes. Thread subscribed

Ranch Fairy has a video about not being able to control blood trails.

[greenhorndave]

I gotta watch more of the Ranch Fairy. His nickname and tendency to joke around sort of bely a really smart and thoughtful dude.

[Huntress13]

I gotta watch more of the Ranch Fairy. His nickname and tendency to joke around sort of bely a really smart and thoughtful dude.

You do have to get past his goofy personality, but he knows his stuff. Best of all, he distills things down into layman's terms and will take the time to help people. You don't have to read the gazillion pages of studies unless you want to.

[EllieTheChubb]

Ranch fairy is defineitely a little much for my taste. That said I see merit in what he is saying. Ive shot rage and muzzy primarily and from 320 grains to 500. Kintetic energy definitely plays a bigger role than whats on the tip of your arrow in terms of penetration. The biggest takeaway I got from the podcast was when he was talking about point of impact, comparing a pingpong ball to a baseball. Throw pingpong balls at me all day long and I dont care but I dont want to be hit with a baseball at any distance.

[mauser06]

I see kinetic energy tossed around a lot when we get into these discussions. That is an important number. But Momentum is where it's at when it comes to arrows.

A 350gr arrow at 320fps gives:
79.57ft/lbs of KE
.497 slugs of momentum


A 750gr arrow at 230fps
88.08ft/lbs of KE
.766 slugs of momentum



Speed plays a big role in kinetic energy. KE= 1/2(mass)x(velocity)^2

Momentum= mass x velocity.


Momentum is essentially an objects ability to carry it's energy.



Example. A baseball going 85mph and a pickup truck going 85mph...

What will be easier to stop? The baseball because the pick-up has more momentum.

Say the baseball is 1 pound....it has:
17 kg·m/s momentum
327 J KE

Pickup at 3500 pounds:
60325 kg·m/s momentum
1146130 J KE

[Ranger Matthews]

I have been shooting a heavy arrow with a single bevel head for the last 6 years. During that time I have recovered several deer that I don’t think I would have recovered with my previous set up. I now pay no attention to the front shoulder blade/leg. Quartering too angles are of little concern because you don’t have to aim behind the leg and risk missing the lungs. The only problem is finding practice targets that the arrows don’t pass through and wreck the fletchings!

[EllieTheChubb]

I have been shooting a heavy arrow with a single bevel head for the last 6 years. During that time I have recovered several deer that I don’t think I would have recovered with my previous set up. I now pay no attention to the front shoulder blade/leg. Quartering too angles are of little concern because you don’t have to aim behind the leg and risk missing the lungs. The only problem is finding practice targets that the arrows don’t pass through and wreck the fletchings!

Could you elaborate on these recoveries?

Also how heavy is your arrow? Over the 650gr "bone breaking" threshold RF/Ashby describes?