More Michigan CWD Insanity

[Jackson Marsh]

Looks like an easy way for politicians to slowly eradicate the deer population and try to dismantle future hunters from ever going...

WI had a large drop in license sales after CWD was discovered. The slaughters that ensued after that alienated a lot of hunters and license sales have been on a slide ever since.

Probably my biggest frustration with this whole thing is Michigan has learned nothing from Wisconsin. Also they knew exactly what happened in Wisconsin and Illinois. A couple years back my brother was a DNR officer in Michigan, and he showed me an internal MI DNR report all about cwd in Wisconsin and Illinois that stated it was impossible to stop and all the efforts did nothing to stope the spread. Yet Michigan is going down the same path.

Forgive my ignorance, but does CWD actually KILL deer?

I’ve heard a lot of hunters stating that they shot a CWD positive deer that appeared “normal” or healthy. I know EHD infected deer look sickly and die relatively quickly.

Screenshot_2020-02-04-19-07-00.png

[Twenty Up]

Looks like an easy way for politicians to slowly eradicate the deer population and try to dismantle future hunters from ever going...

WI had a large drop in license sales after CWD was discovered. The slaughters that ensued after that alienated a lot of hunters and license sales have been on a slide ever since.

Probably my biggest frustration with this whole thing is Michigan has learned nothing from Wisconsin. Also they knew exactly what happened in Wisconsin and Illinois. A couple years back my brother was a DNR officer in Michigan, and he showed me an internal MI DNR report all about cwd in Wisconsin and Illinois that stated it was impossible to stop and all the efforts did nothing to stope the spread. Yet Michigan is going down the same path.

Forgive my ignorance, but does CWD actually KILL deer?

I’ve heard a lot of hunters stating that they shot a CWD positive deer that appeared “normal” or healthy. I know EHD infected deer look sickly and die relatively quickly.

Screenshot_2020-02-04-19-07-00.png

I apologize for the dumb question. CWD isn’t in my State (yet), I guess what I was asking was have y’all been finding more dead deer because of CWD? Have deer sighting been steadily going down since CWD started?

[mipubbucks24]

CWD is a pretty controversial subject these days, a close second to sunday hunting here in PA. I know a lot of guys don't buy into the whole cwd management theories but I have to ask a few questions:
You shoot a deer, it tests positive for cwd. Would you have any issue with your wife or kids consuming the meat? I know that in good conscience, I could not feed my family meat from a positive tested deer.
If your not happy with the current management plans, what would have the DNR's do? I know that I know nothing about cwd. Therefore, I have to leave the what to do about it, figure out the next steps. For someone to legitimately suggest that a DNR is purposely attempt to totally eradicate deer, their largest draw for license purchases.
If the DNR did absolutely nothing about it, there would be a whole new crowd up blaming them for inaction. Its easy for us to sit on this side of the problem to cry conspiracies or wrong doing, they are just trying to do a job.

I understand what you are saying, and I know they are just trying to do their job. But there is mountains of data that shows what they are doing does not work, that is the issue. My other problem as is they are not listening to the people buying the licenses. I don’t give them a pass for “doing something” when what they are doing does not work. They need to think outside the box they need to listen to the hunters, there is no indication that they are doing any of this.

As for your question about eating the deer, if I knew one had cwd I would probably not eat
It, but there are a lot of people who do and so far they can’t prove a single case has jumped to
Humans.

[Jackson Marsh]

Looks like an easy way for politicians to slowly eradicate the deer population and try to dismantle future hunters from ever going...

WI had a large drop in license sales after CWD was discovered. The slaughters that ensued after that alienated a lot of hunters and license sales have been on a slide ever since.

Probably my biggest frustration with this whole thing is Michigan has learned nothing from Wisconsin. Also they knew exactly what happened in Wisconsin and Illinois. A couple years back my brother was a DNR officer in Michigan, and he showed me an internal MI DNR report all about cwd in Wisconsin and Illinois that stated it was impossible to stop and all the efforts did nothing to stope the spread. Yet Michigan is going down the same path.

Forgive my ignorance, but does CWD actually KILL deer?

I’ve heard a lot of hunters stating that they shot a CWD positive deer that appeared “normal” or healthy. I know EHD infected deer look sickly and die relatively quickly.

Screenshot_2020-02-04-19-07-00.png

I apologize for the dumb question. CWD isn’t in my State (yet), I guess what I was asking was have y’all been finding more dead deer because of CWD? Have deer sighting been steadily going down since CWD started?

Very few people have actually seen a deer sick with CWD in Wisconsin. I find dead deer on occasion (none so far this year) but the only way to know is to send the lymph nodes in for testing....and even that doesn't tell you that the deer died of CWD, it could have been hit by a car /bullet / arrow and ran off to die in the marsh.

[thepennsylvanian]

CWD is a pretty controversial subject these days, a close second to sunday hunting here in PA. I know a lot of guys don't buy into the whole cwd management theories but I have to ask a few questions:
You shoot a deer, it tests positive for cwd. Would you have any issue with your wife or kids consuming the meat? I know that in good conscience, I could not feed my family meat from a positive tested deer.
If your not happy with the current management plans, what would have the DNR's do? I know that I know nothing about cwd. Therefore, I have to leave the what to do about it, figure out the next steps. For someone to legitimately suggest that a DNR is purposely attempt to totally eradicate deer, their largest draw for license purchases.
If the DNR did absolutely nothing about it, there would be a whole new crowd up blaming them for inaction. Its easy for us to sit on this side of the problem to cry conspiracies or wrong doing, they are just trying to do a job.

I understand what you are saying, and I know they are just trying to do their job. But there is mountains of data that shows what they are doing does not work, that is the issue. My other problem as is they are not listening to the people buying the licenses. I don’t give them a pass for “doing something” when what they are doing does not work. They need to think outside the box they need to listen to the hunters, there is no indication that they are doing any of this.

As for your question about eating the deer, if I knew one had cwd I would probably not eat
It, but there are a lot of people who do and so far they can’t prove a single case has jumped to
Humans.

I think that sometimes, they have to look beyond what the hunters think. I've noticed that there are really two majority groups with opinions regarding cwd, first and the most consistent is the let hunters decide and make decisions because cwd isnt that big of a deal, the other is those hunters who see the sky falling. Hunters, as a whole, are greedy, we want things to remain the way they were. That said change has to happen with, the dnr exists to protect our precious resource even if that means protecting it from hunters... the overwhelming majority of hunter have no idea what to do about cwd, why should the subject matter experts listen to us.
So far they haven't proved a cwd cross over case, I got that, but does not negate the fact that many guys would choose not to feed it to their families if the received a positive test result. If they do, well, that's on them. I'm not gonna have my daughters or wife or me become the first cross over case...
For the record, do I like the eradication efforts that states are using in the cwd areas, NO, but I do not know what the alternative would be. What could be done differently?

[Jerry40]

CWD is a pretty controversial subject these days, a close second to sunday hunting here in PA. I know a lot of guys don't buy into the whole cwd management theories but I have to ask a few questions:
You shoot a deer, it tests positive for cwd. Would you have any issue with your wife or kids consuming the meat? I know that in good conscience, I could not feed my family meat from a positive tested deer.
If your not happy with the current management plans, what would have the DNR's do? I know that I know nothing about cwd. Therefore, I have to leave the what to do about it, figure out the next steps. For someone to legitimately suggest that a DNR is purposely attempt to totally eradicate deer, their largest draw for license purchases.
If the DNR did absolutely nothing about it, there would be a whole new crowd up blaming them for inaction. Its easy for us to sit on this side of the problem to cry conspiracies or wrong doing, they are just trying to do a job.

[Jerry40]

I think it's easy to point the finger at a state DNR agency and say they are managing the CWD issue wrong, but can anyone name a state that is doing it right? It's a complicated issue and right now every state is looking at trying to slow down the spread of the disease, because no one has a real solution. So for right now most states are trying to reduce population to slow down the spread. I don't like the plan, but I don't think there is a better idea. So I will support the MI DNR until someone has a better idea.

[Lu Rome]

So the only solution is complete extermination?

Not a solution. More like a band aid on a mortal wound.

Not to mention the prion will already be in the soil and when new deer move back in the area they will likely contract it as well. Extermination does absolutely nothing except remove deer from the landscape and anger hunters and other people who like to watch deer. WI has been there done that with no positive results.

Some would argue that Wisconsin didn't do enough, here's some research that would make that argument:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7713002894

[Dewey]

So the only solution is complete extermination?

Not a solution. More like a band aid on a mortal wound.

Not to mention the prion will already be in the soil and when new deer move back in the area they will likely contract it as well. Extermination does absolutely nothing except remove deer from the landscape and anger hunters and other people who like to watch deer. WI has been there done that with no positive results.

Some would argue that Wisconsin didn't do enough, here's some research that would make that argument:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7713002894

Based on that I’m curious what we could have done differently? It’s real obvious nobody has an answer to that otherwise CWD wouldn’t even be a topic anymore.

[Lu Rome]

So the only solution is complete extermination?

Not a solution. More like a band aid on a mortal wound.

Not to mention the prion will already be in the soil and when new deer move back in the area they will likely contract it as well. Extermination does absolutely nothing except remove deer from the landscape and anger hunters and other people who like to watch deer. WI has been there done that with no positive results.

Some would argue that Wisconsin didn't do enough, here's some research that would make that argument:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7713002894

Based on that I’m curious what we could have done differently? It’s real obvious nobody has an answer to that otherwise CWD wouldn’t even be a topic anymore.

Dewey, the argument is that WI cut short their sharpshooting/herd reduction in 2007 and Illinois continued through 2012. Illinois' CWD rate stayed level and Wisconsin's increased steadily following the stoppage of that tactic. There are answers, it's just that nobody likes them. While there's no cure, there are ways to slow the spread and incidence. Ultimately the solution isn't "cure it instantly" or "do nothing", it's somewhere in the middle and that gets lost in the weeds. It's a little like cancer. Sometimes cancer can disappear from an individual, but by and large cancer is managed, not cured. Like chemo, sometimes the treatment is arguably worse than the disease for the time being.

[Dewey]

So the only solution is complete extermination?

Not a solution. More like a band aid on a mortal wound.

Not to mention the prion will already be in the soil and when new deer move back in the area they will likely contract it as well. Extermination does absolutely nothing except remove deer from the landscape and anger hunters and other people who like to watch deer. WI has been there done that with no positive results.

Some would argue that Wisconsin didn't do enough, here's some research that would make that argument:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7713002894

Based on that I’m curious what we could have done differently? It’s real obvious nobody has an answer to that otherwise CWD wouldn’t even be a topic anymore.

Dewey, the argument is that WI cut short their sharpshooting/herd reduction in 2007 and Illinois continued through 2012. Illinois' CWD rate stayed level and Wisconsin's increased steadily following the stoppage of that tactic. There are answers, it's just that nobody likes them. While there's no cure, there are ways to slow the spread and incidence. Ultimately the solution isn't "cure it instantly" or "do nothing", it's somewhere in the middle and that gets lost in the weeds. It's a little like cancer. Sometimes cancer can disappear from an individual, but by and large cancer is managed, not cured. Like chemo, sometimes the treatment is arguably worse than the disease for the time being.

I hear what your saying but if Illinois continued shooting deer and severely reduced the herd numbers of course the amount of CWD infected deer will go down compared to WI. I can bet that when the sharpshooting stops over time the infected rate will be right back where it was again. The only solution is completely eradicate the deer herd. Only problem then is the prion in the soil will infect any new deer that get introduced at a later date. It’s a vicious circle that nobody has an answer to. I am in know way an expert on this topic but common sense shows that current kill em all tactics are really doing very little to solve the problem. Is killing deer the answer? I don’t know but it sure would be refreshing to see one of the states attempt a different angle on the problem. Figuring out why the prion survives in the ground a looking for a way to eliminate that would be a step in the right direction.

This study is a good start.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 142435.htm

These are the kind of studies I like to see.

https://www.wiscontext.org/discovery-cw ... ase-puzzle

[mipubbucks24]

I hear what your saying but if Illinois continued shooting deer and severely reduced the herd numbers of course the amount of CWD infected deer will go down compared to WI. I can bet that when the sharpshooting stops over time the infected rate will be right back where it was again. The only solution is completely eradicate the deer herd. Only problem then is the prion in the soil will infect any new deer that get introduced at a later date. It’s a vicious circle that nobody has an answer to. I am in know way an expert on this topic but common sense shows that current kill em all tactics are really doing very little to solve the problem. Is killing deer the answer? I don’t know but it sure would be refreshing to see one of the states attempt a different angle on the problem. Figuring out why the prion survives in the ground a looking for a way to eliminate that would be a step in the right direction.

This study is a good start.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 142435.htm

These are the kind of studies I like to see.

https://www.wiscontext.org/discovery-cw ... ase-puzzle[/quote]

Spot On!!!

[Lu Rome]

I hear what your saying but if Illinois continued shooting deer and severely reduced the herd numbers of course the amount of CWD infected deer will go down compared to WI. I can bet that when the sharpshooting stops over time the infected rate will be right back where it was again. The only solution is completely eradicate the deer herd. Only problem then is the prion in the soil will infect any new deer that get introduced at a later date. It’s a vicious circle that nobody has an answer to. I am in know way an expert on this topic but common sense shows that current kill em all tactics are really doing very little to solve the problem. Is killing deer the answer? I don’t know but it sure would be refreshing to see one of the states attempt a different angle on the problem. Figuring out why the prion survives in the ground a looking for a way to eliminate that would be a step in the right direction.

This study is a good start.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 142435.htm

These are the kind of studies I like to see.

https://www.wiscontext.org/discovery-cw ... ase-puzzle

Yeah all good stuff. While the environmental reservoir (soil/plants) is potentially a source for transmission, animal to animal transmission is likely the larger route for transmission. Keeping deer at lower densities will reduce that animal to animal transmission to a lower level than it is at higher densities as well as keep the number of prions shed into the environment at a lower level as well. It's not about the sheer number of positives on the landscape, but the percent positive. If you can keep that prevalence rate lower the rate of spread is reduced and should a cure be discovered it would be easier to implement. Yes once you quit prevalence rates would probably respond accordingly. Comparing IL and WI isn't entirely fair either, each state has vastly different habitat and varying densities of deer and at this point where you've reached 20-40% prevalence, sharpshooting as a tool isn't an option. However, states that still have low rates of prevalence still have a chance of some sort of "success". The "kill em all" technique is about keeping the disease at a level that could be managed if a cure is found. Like I said, managing vs cure. You should read Colorado's new plan if you haven't.

[Sailfish_WC]

CWD is a pretty controversial subject these days, a close second to sunday hunting here in PA. I know a lot of guys don't buy into the whole cwd management theories but I have to ask a few questions:
You shoot a deer, it tests positive for cwd. Would you have any issue with your wife or kids consuming the meat? I know that in good conscience, I could not feed my family meat from a positive tested deer.
If your not happy with the current management plans, what would have the DNR's do? I know that I know nothing about cwd. Therefore, I have to leave the what to do about it, figure out the next steps. For someone to legitimately suggest that a DNR is purposely attempt to totally eradicate deer, their largest draw for license purchases.
If the DNR did absolutely nothing about it, there would be a whole new crowd up blaming them for inaction. Its easy for us to sit on this side of the problem to cry conspiracies or wrong doing, they are just trying to do a job.

The only thing that bothers me is the x-over to humans.
Especially with the caronavirus in the news.
I know the one is rna based the other a prion and usually don’t x-species but.... it does happen.