Do you hunt sign or terrain?

[oldrank]

I have done much better with encounters with mature bucks in the last couple of years by hunting in areas that “seem Bucky” based on maps and and boots on the ground observation. That also have mature buck sign near by. (Where I think it was made in the day.)

However, it took me over 2 seasons to even see a mature buck on purpose. The next 2 to figure out a way to see one every year. And just the last couple seasons where I think I’m actually in the game, able to consistently find big buck sign, and be reasonably close. So take my view for what it’s worth. Maybe that’s just the learning phase that I’m in currently...

I think of it like fishing, you could have a lake with the best structure ever. But if it froze out, there ain’t no fish. So go to good structure, mark fish on the depth finder, then fish it, otherwise move on.

You could have a property with great features, but if there are no deer/ big bucks ( for a variety or reasons). It’s a waste of your time. I use the sign like a fish finder. If the sign is there, Hunt the nearest terrain feature. If not, I move on...

I think I am in a similar stage. A lot of my hunting is based on what feels bucky. A lot of that has come from reading about others success here, seeing pics, Dan's videos, chatting with other beast n so on. I also think having strong mental confidence helps. I seldom second guess a sit. Once I am committed I'm there till dark expecting a buck.

[Ishi Spirit]

Good terrain usually has great sign! That’s not a given so I’ll evaluate every situation and hunt accordingly.

[greenhorndave]

How much does buck travel terrain differ from generic small/doe travel? And in what ways? I’m getting somewhat decent at identifying these things, but I often assume it’s just doe travel. (which starts to mean something at this time of year as bucks start dogging those trails)

[DaveT1963]

Simple answer - YES. Terrain is easier to see and exploit - reading sign takes some experience - not all sign is fresh or created equal. But I feel most confident using both.

[Lockdown]

I have done much better with encounters with mature bucks in the last couple of years by hunting in areas that “seem Bucky” based on maps and and boots on the ground observation. That also have mature buck sign near by. (Where I think it was made in the day.)

However, it took me over 2 seasons to even see a mature buck on purpose. The next 2 to figure out a way to see one every year. And just the last couple seasons where I think I’m actually in the game, able to consistently find big buck sign, and be reasonably close. So take my view for what it’s worth. Maybe that’s just the learning phase that I’m in currently...

I think of it like fishing, you could have a lake with the best structure ever. But if it froze out, there ain’t no fish. So go to good structure, mark fish on the depth finder, then fish it, otherwise move on.

You could have a property with great features, but if there are no deer/ big bucks ( for a variety or reasons). It’s a waste of your time. I use the sign like a fish finder. If the sign is there, Hunt the nearest terrain feature. If not, I move on...

I think I am in a similar stage. A lot of my hunting is based on what feels bucky. A lot of that has come from reading about others success here, seeing pics, Dan's videos, chatting with other beast n so on. I also think having strong mental confidence helps. I seldom second guess a sit. Once I am committed I'm there till dark expecting a buck.

I use the fishing analogy a lot. Great tournament fishermen don’t wet a line until their electronics show fish.

The first couple years as a Beast I set up on terrain based off of spring scouting findings. I felt like I was in the game, and couldn’t imagine setting up without knowing I’m on bedding.

Now I can’t imagine setting up on bedding that doesn’t have hot sign, and can’t believe I used to set up on bedding and hope someone is home.

Having hot sign in the mix is that much more productive. When I killed my WI doe, I had 3 kills in 8 sits. And I think on the 5 sits I didn’t kill one, I had deer in bow range every time but one, and I bumped a small buck 75 yards from my set on the way in on that hunt.

IMHO if you’re not keying on hot sign outside of rut, you’re missing opportunities. It takes effort to keep scouting, and you have to pass the marginal sign. If you’re after a big buck, his tracks should be there. If you’re after does, there should be an abundant amount of tracks and well used trails.

[keepthefevercalls]

I don't get out much, and when I do it's typically a morning hunt, so I only get to hunt terrain features.

[Mgaspari]

Simple answer - YES. Terrain is easier to see and exploit - reading sign takes some experience - not all sign is fresh or created equal. But I feel most confident using both.

This! A couple does or a couple 2 year old bucks can leave a ton of great sign and make an area look like the whole herd is there. But if the sign is not in the right terrain or vegetation then it is pointless unless you are looking to score on a doe or young buck.

[Kraftd]

Hot sign will be all over entrance and exit but will be impossible to hunt. On a calm day when leaves are wet a hunter can sneak in the back side and set up, aiming thermals at water hole. Set up top anywhere on first ridge and your pulling thermals to him.

So roughly how big is that area?

It sounded like you just figured alot of the thermal pull stuff out on hunts. When you first started hunting this way. Example above seems pretty obvious how the thermals will pull into a bowl like that. Once you know how they work. But when do you figure spots out that don't have this bowl feature. Spring scouting. Or are these bedding areas so bullet proof that going in during season a couple of times. Still doesn't blow them outta there.

They never burn out, humans can't really get in them... Maybe the edges. So yes they are somewhat bullet proof. That's where they bed. That doesn't mean there is a big buck in everyone, everyday. If I hunt them right then, I will see deer alot. Eventually I will run into a buck I want to shoot.

As for the map, yes very basic. Yet still all of the treestands I find will be hung right on his exit where the hot sign is. That one I drew is just an example. Could vary in size. If it was 4 or 5 acres I would be over the ridge. 50 acres I would hunt it like I posted.

I figure them out through spring scouting, cyber scouting, winter snow scouting, but the number one way is by just hunting them and learning by seeing deer use them. Once I see a buck use an area even if it's an old scrape line or tracks or any deer trail I mark it on my Huntstand. I then check topos and satellite views looking for any advantage I can gain. So in a mile or two section over a few years of time I will have every deer trail, funnel, bedding area mapped out. So, to get back to the point of the thread. I don't have to see any "Hot" sign. I know the deer are there. I'm looking more at people vs security vs travel. Not sure if any of that makes sense ??? Haha.

Keeping with you example, if other guys are set-up on the sign on the exit trail you have shown, is the buck adjusting his exit and not leaving sign? If you're a ridge or two over, are you setting up on a destination food source? Are you setting up based on past intel of where he will adjust to. I love these in depth conversations, great stuff. I got a buddy on a nice buck yesterday in a bowl very similar to your example. Came by at 25 yards either heading back to bed or scent checking does. Moving too fast and he couldn't get it to stop, but we got a lead. This is super high pressure, super low deer number spot right off a main access trail. I've been playing with it for a few years.

I do think its interesting that your approach here seems to buck the notion that they will only move a very small distance during daylight. Seems like you're generally setting up a little further from bedding than what traditional "beast" hunting would suggest. Gotta keep the mind open.

[oldrank]

Hot sign will be all over entrance and exit but will be impossible to hunt. On a calm day when leaves are wet a hunter can sneak in the back side and set up, aiming thermals at water hole. Set up top anywhere on first ridge and your pulling thermals to him.

So roughly how big is that area?

It sounded like you just figured alot of the thermal pull stuff out on hunts. When you first started hunting this way. Example above seems pretty obvious how the thermals will pull into a bowl like that. Once you know how they work. But when do you figure spots out that don't have this bowl feature. Spring scouting. Or are these bedding areas so bullet proof that going in during season a couple of times. Still doesn't blow them outta there.

They never burn out, humans can't really get in them... Maybe the edges. So yes they are somewhat bullet proof. That's where they bed. That doesn't mean there is a big buck in everyone, everyday. If I hunt them right then, I will see deer alot. Eventually I will run into a buck I want to shoot.

As for the map, yes very basic. Yet still all of the treestands I find will be hung right on his exit where the hot sign is. That one I drew is just an example. Could vary in size. If it was 4 or 5 acres I would be over the ridge. 50 acres I would hunt it like I posted.

I figure them out through spring scouting, cyber scouting, winter snow scouting, but the number one way is by just hunting them and learning by seeing deer use them. Once I see a buck use an area even if it's an old scrape line or tracks or any deer trail I mark it on my Huntstand. I then check topos and satellite views looking for any advantage I can gain. So in a mile or two section over a few years of time I will have every deer trail, funnel, bedding area mapped out. So, to get back to the point of the thread. I don't have to see any "Hot" sign. I know the deer are there. I'm looking more at people vs security vs travel. Not sure if any of that makes sense ??? Haha.

Keeping with you example, if other guys are set-up on the sign on the exit trail you have shown, is the buck adjusting his exit and not leaving sign? If you're a ridge or two over, are you setting up on a destination food source? Are you setting up based on past intel of where he will adjust to. I love these in depth conversations, great stuff. I got a buddy on a nice buck yesterday in a bowl very similar to your example. Came by at 25 yards either heading back to bed or scent checking does. Moving too fast and he couldn't get it to stop, but we got a lead. This is super high pressure, super low deer number spot right off a main access trail. I've been playing with it for a few years.

I do think its interesting that your approach here seems to buck the notion that they will only move a very small distance during daylight. Seems like you're generally setting up a little further from bedding than what traditional "beast" hunting would suggest. Gotta keep the mind open.

If the hunter is a not paying attention to his wind or exit the buck will know he is there and simply not leave his bed. That is one of the ways I have success. I pattern the other hunter first. If he is not hunting it correctly I wait for an opportunity to slip in and hunt on a perfect condition day and kill the buck.

If the hunter is dedicated solely to that spot and over hunts it the buck will change access or in rare cases abandon it if it's not secure enough. Like I said though most are very secure.

I do pay attention to where the buck is moving but might not be a food source. Could be as simple as he has to move that way. Imagine a lake behind him. He isn't crossing the lake. He has to move away from it. That movement could be pressure based. If that area has easy human access they always seem to be on the most secure side. That eliminates 50 percent of the area. So I'm looking for that type of advantage alot.

A ton is based on past Intel... Once I see them do something I'm cross-checking that to my maps. Once I see them do it again and again, I then start tweaking my setups till I find that one spot that is secure access for me and a chink n his armor....

I posted a thread awhile back how I kill them off of the human trails. Another major advantage for me. Easy access, they expect human scent and they don't burn out.

Its tough to explain and every spot is different.

[oldrank]

I also don't want to come off like I am a big buck killer or know it all. I'm not and I don't. My number one asset is probably stubbornness to succeed and marathon time on stand... I just won't quit. Eventually I run into a buck I want to kill.

[Kraftd]

I also don't want to come off like I am a big buck killer or know it all. I'm not and I don't. My number one asset is probably stubbornness to succeed and marathon time on stand... I just won't quit. Eventually I run into a buck I want to kill.

No man, you do a great job showing the level of thought it takes to kill some of these bucks and explaining your process. Stand time and stubborness aren't always enough in many areas, imo. I love hearing how other people think through this stuff. Sometimes it can make me overthink instead of just hunt, but I find it fascinating all the same.

Right now I think my biggest issue is low deer numbers makes learning from observation slower on some of my pieces. I'd say almost more often than not, great terrain features that should hold deer and of mature bucks often just don't have any sign of use. When I go to higher deer density areas, the difference is stark. Factor in just not being able to scout/hunt as much as I know it would take and I end up guessing too much. My kids are young yet, as they get a little older should be able to get out a little more (so far they haven't gotten into any of the crazy sports schedule stuff yet, knock on wood!).

To me the take away is keep an open mind and try to factor in as many factors in as you can. Whether that's terrain, sign, pressure, wind, thermals, food, etc. It can all be another puzzle piece and bucks have been killed focusing on any and all of these factors.

[headgear]

Its tough to explain and every spot is different.

I think this is the key here, so much of this is situational you can't say this or that works for everyone. I have spots that I hunt no matter the sign just because it is the right time of year and I either don't have access to or can't check the sign without blowing them out of there, as you mentioned. Every bed is so different too, sometimes the sign is in close, sometimes far away, sometimes it is concentrated, other times spread out, other times none at all or very hard to find. Then you get into bed hunting vs rut hunting, I always want some sign in an area so I know a good one is around but sometimes you are just picking a spot off a map or using historical encounters to determine where you setup. I think we all have to figure it out and kind of find our own style, I am learning all the time and hunting far different than use to, I might be a very different hunter 5 years from now too based on what I learn in that time.

[greenhorndave]

Great thread and it's helpful oldrank.

Some of what Kraft and Headgear just described are limitations in some of the places I hunt too. I'm in the middle of decent deer numbers, but this one particular swamp has very few sight lines where you can observe from afar. The action is in the interior and there's no low-key way to do it. Sign also is not super concentrated from what I've found so far, but it is there.

One of the terrain features that's holding scrapes now is one that has 5 other ladder stands on it. One of them shot a decent buck and there's other good deer out there. In this case, hunting near others paid off?

But it's a challenge to locate the good ones because a lot of the edge looks good but might just be too obvious to attract attention from hunters, while a lot is just super difficult not to blow out bedding because of the terrain and access. You pretty much have to go through bedding to reach deeper islands. It's a tough place that's loaded with possibilities, but tough for someone like me to unlock. The amount of sign isn't extreme and the terrain is tough to figure out once you cross off the obvious and that's reachable by most people.

[Kraftd]

Great thread and it's helpful oldrank.

Some of what Kraft and Headgear just described are limitations in some of the places I hunt too. I'm in the middle of decent deer numbers, but this one particular swamp has very few sight lines where you can observe from afar. The action is in the interior and there's no low-key way to do it. Sign also is not super concentrated from what I've found so far, but it is there.

One of the terrain features that's holding scrapes now is one that has 5 other ladder stands on it. One of them shot a decent buck and there's other good deer out there. In this case, hunting near others paid off?

But it's a challenge to locate the good ones because a lot of the edge looks good but might just be too obvious to attract attention from hunters, while a lot is just super difficult not to blow out bedding because of the terrain and access. You pretty much have to go through bedding to reach deeper islands. It's a tough place that's loaded with possibilities, but tough for someone like me to unlock. The amount of sign isn't extreme and the terrain is tough to figure out once you cross off the obvious and that's reachable by most people.

I have several big dogwood/alder/tamarack swamps by me that seem very similar. Basically no quiet way in, all of the transition and edge is subtle, and they are big and I have not been able to decipher the sublties of where to hunt from winter scouting. I've largely abandoned trying to hunt in the middle of them, but haven't had the results I want sticking to the outskirts. I keep at it. I suspect someday an observation or something will make something click. If not, I'll have fun trying.

[Huntress13]

So far I have only been hunting terrain. I haven't scouted enough to have found exact beds. Though on the private properties I know well, I have a good idea where they are bedding. Just not down to knowing within bow range yardage of where they are laying down.