How would one measure how smart a deer is?

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HunterBob
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Re: How would one measure how smart a deer is?

Unread postby HunterBob » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:53 am

Most of them (or all of them this year) seem to have been smart enough to evade me...


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Re: How would one measure how smart a deer is?

Unread postby Grizzlyadam » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:26 am

checkerfred wrote:
Grizzlyadam wrote:
checkerfred wrote:
Dirt track wrote:The ability to retain what a mature buck has learned is what makes him smart? This is why the first sit is so important.


So if you get busted by a buck in a certain tree, does he learn and retain that forever, always keeping an eye on that tree from now on?

There is no always or never. Chances are better than not that he will keep that tree on his radar forever. He may go past it without much concern in the middle of the night but then pass it 100 yards downwind during daylight hours. It all depends on the bucks personality. I think it also depends on how he busted you in that tree. If he was shot from that tree and wounded while smelling and seeing you vs maybe he just smelled you. Those two different experiences will likely have a different impact on his perception of danger for that particular tree or spot and his degree of avoidance likely will vary accordingly.


I didn't say always or never...like when some people say "do bucks always bed..." I said forever. Do they retain that information forever? Think of it like this, you know that 2+2 is 4. You'll never forget that unless you get some kind of disease that effects your memory. So do deer retain experiences like that forever? Will they forever remember a bad experience from a certain area or a hunter in a certain tree?


You said "always keeping an eye on that tree." I would think that would be completely situational and totally dependent on that deers particular experiences. Like at night does he care, vs during shooting light.

As far as forever, that's a question I don't think anyone can answer. I guess again it would have to do with the severity of the impact. Very difficult to quantify exactly what the capability of a deers memory is. If their life depends on them remembering what to pay attention to in order to avoid death they better darn well have a good memory.
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Re: How would one measure how smart a deer is?

Unread postby Twenty Up » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:02 pm

This is a question that I honestly can’t wait to ask Aaron & The Hunting Public crew. I’m really curious to hear their input on hunting pressure and mature buck behavior across the States they’ve hunted so far (particularly Alabama).
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Re: How would one measure how smart a deer is?

Unread postby Dirt track » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:42 pm

Re: How would one measure how smart a deer is?
by Twenty Up » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:02 pm
This is a question that I honestly can’t wait to ask Aaron & The Hunting Public crew. I’m really curious to hear their input on hunting pressure and mature buck behavior across the States they’ve hunted so far (particularly Alabama).


I would love to hear "The Public Hunting Crew" view on this? Please keep us informed.
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Re: How would one measure how smart a deer is?

Unread postby checkerfred » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:32 pm

Grizzlyadam wrote:
checkerfred wrote:
Grizzlyadam wrote:
checkerfred wrote:
Dirt track wrote:The ability to retain what a mature buck has learned is what makes him smart? This is why the first sit is so important.


So if you get busted by a buck in a certain tree, does he learn and retain that forever, always keeping an eye on that tree from now on?

There is no always or never. Chances are better than not that he will keep that tree on his radar forever. He may go past it without much concern in the middle of the night but then pass it 100 yards downwind during daylight hours. It all depends on the bucks personality. I think it also depends on how he busted you in that tree. If he was shot from that tree and wounded while smelling and seeing you vs maybe he just smelled you. Those two different experiences will likely have a different impact on his perception of danger for that particular tree or spot and his degree of avoidance likely will vary accordingly.


I didn't say always or never...like when some people say "do bucks always bed..." I said forever. Do they retain that information forever? Think of it like this, you know that 2+2 is 4. You'll never forget that unless you get some kind of disease that effects your memory. So do deer retain experiences like that forever? Will they forever remember a bad experience from a certain area or a hunter in a certain tree?


You said "always keeping an eye on that tree." I would think that would be completely situational and totally dependent on that deers particular experiences. Like at night does he care, vs during shooting light.

As far as forever, that's a question I don't think anyone can answer. I guess again it would have to do with the severity of the impact. Very difficult to quantify exactly what the capability of a deers memory is. If their life depends on them remembering what to pay attention to in order to avoid death they better darn well have a good memory.



I think the point to my comment is getting lost in translation. Deer are a prey species. Prey animals are wired for survival. Such as a deer learns to use their nose and bucks learn to bed a certain way for survival.

Someone asked “The ability to retain what a mature buck has learned is what makes him smart?”. While yes, I did say forever, it’s not in reference to “always or forever” in the sense of something like how they bed or travel. It’s relating to their mental capacity. Do animals have the ability to forever remember? Especially something like a close call with a predator. Maybe we cannot answer that. I was just throwing it out there for discussion
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Re: How would one measure how smart a deer is?

Unread postby checkerfred » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:37 pm

Grizzlyadam wrote:
You said "always keeping an eye on that tree." I would think that would be completely situational and totally dependent on that deers particular experiences. Like at night does he care, vs during shooting light.


I agree that it would be situational...but that would also mean if he does or doesn’t care, he remembers that interaction and doesn’t forget. This is really interesting to think about.
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Re: How would one measure how smart a deer is?

Unread postby Lockdown » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:59 pm

<DK> wrote:
elk yinzer wrote:Have you ever walked through a really bad neighborhood at night? Take that emotion times about 1,000 and I would imagine that's about how a deer feels about areas that they associate with humans.

Ha! thats one way to put it

Grizzlyadam wrote:I don't think deer are particularly smart. I think they have an uncanny ability to quickly detect, react, and remember. Their ability to survive relies more on memory than anything else IMO. They are creatures of habit. They repeatedly do things that have been proven not to get them killed.


I go back and forth on this alot but agree w you. Its amazing to see how well they can survive but also how stupid they can be by ways some people get them... :think:

Dirt track wrote:Learning experience of 1 1/2 year old buck deer

Negative learning experience

close to town Michigan

Shot at 3
bumped in bed 10
Spot light 10
winded hunter 5

Score Card 28 experience/IQ

Managed farm with 600 + acres "IOWA"
Shot at 0
Bumped in bed 0
spot light 0
winded hunter 2

Score Card 2 experience/IQ


Pretty cool way to put it. I always try think about how many times a buck has winded a human. Really adds up the more you think about it


I enjoy the perspective/logic from these posts



Personally, and I have a pretty strong opinion on this, I feel like ALL deer are acclimated to their surroundings. We talk all the time about stuff like suburban deer - "that big buck was bedded 80 yards from some kids' swing set!! Take one step into the woods and he's GONE." - a certain amount of human interaction is part of daily life for that deer.

One big thing I took away from Lee Lakosky's book was pressure. He mentioned how he observed movement from mature bucks in a no hunting zone. They'd bed out in the open and be on their feet at all times of the day. He went on to mention a feeder he put out at his in laws place in their yard. For the first year or so when they drove in the yard the deer would scatter. After a few years the deer realized a vehicle pulling in wasn't a threat. :think:

The scenarios a guy could come up with are infinite. But it is my belief that a deer's "IQ" starts at birth. It's no different than our kids being brought up watching us butcher wild game thinking it's how we get food, or thinking its disgusting if they see it for the first time as a teenager. "Normal" is whatever you're accustomed to.

The buck my buddy killed that I posted last weekend in live from the field is a perfect example. You can see a dam at the top of the picture. (highlighted portion is city jurisdiction). I used to fish here when I was young.

I had no idea, and I'm sure they people fishing now have no idea that they're trespassing. The city actually mows on to the private land. My favorite spot to fish was the yellow X. People fish all along the yellow line.

Image

I measured it with OnX and it's 165 FEET from where I jumped his wounded buck to where I used to fish on the river bank. 62 yards? :think:

My friends told me they've had many hunts where they could hear fishermen talking while they were on stand, yet deer would still come out of the bedding near the pink dot and head South naturally. :think:

Having people in such close proximity puts most deer on high alert. But it's nothing out of the ordinary if that's what they grew up with. If that area was a sanctuary, a person walking in along the river means PANIC. If you're a fawn that has been exposed to that since birth, you just keep chewing your cud. :think:
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Re: How would one measure how smart a deer is?

Unread postby Jdw » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:16 pm

checkerfred wrote:
Grizzlyadam wrote:
checkerfred wrote:
Grizzlyadam wrote:
checkerfred wrote:
Dirt track wrote:The ability to retain what a mature buck has learned is what makes him smart? This is why the first sit is so important.


So if you get busted by a buck in a certain tree, does he learn and retain that forever, always keeping an eye on that tree from now on?

There is no always or never. Chances are better than not that he will keep that tree on his radar forever. He may go past it without much concern in the middle of the night but then pass it 100 yards downwind during daylight hours. It all depends on the bucks personality. I think it also depends on how he busted you in that tree. If he was shot from that tree and wounded while smelling and seeing you vs maybe he just smelled you. Those two different experiences will likely have a different impact on his perception of danger for that particular tree or spot and his degree of avoidance likely will vary accordingly.


I didn't say always or never...like when some people say "do bucks always bed..." I said forever. Do they retain that information forever? Think of it like this, you know that 2+2 is 4. You'll never forget that unless you get some kind of disease that effects your memory. So do deer retain experiences like that forever? Will they forever remember a bad experience from a certain area or a hunter in a certain tree?


You said "always keeping an eye on that tree." I would think that would be completely situational and totally dependent on that deers particular experiences. Like at night does he care, vs during shooting light.

As far as forever, that's a question I don't think anyone can answer. I guess again it would have to do with the severity of the impact. Very difficult to quantify exactly what the capability of a deers memory is. If their life depends on them remembering what to pay attention to in order to avoid death they better darn well have a good memory.



I think the point to my comment is getting lost in translation. Deer are a prey species. Prey animals are wired for survival. Such as a deer learns to use their nose and bucks learn to bed a certain way for survival.

Someone asked “The ability to retain what a mature buck has learned is what makes him smart?”. While yes, I did say forever, it’s not in reference to “always or forever” in the sense of something like how they bed or travel. It’s relating to their mental capacity. Do animals have the ability to forever remember? Especially something like a close call with a predator. Maybe we cannot answer that. I was just throwing it out there for discussion


Looking at this from a different angle.

I have trail cam pictures and observations of bucks that only spend a little bit of time on the property I hunt. They show up within a few days of the same time every year for multiple years in a row.
So I would say they have a good way to keep track of things that are important for survival.
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Re: How would one measure how smart a deer is?

Unread postby checkerfred » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:43 pm

Jdw wrote:Looking at this from a different angle.

I have trail cam pictures and observations of bucks that only spend a little bit of time on the property I hunt. They show up within a few days of the same time every year for multiple years in a row.
So I would say they have a good way to keep track of things that are important for survival.


This sounds like they’re coming through during rut. I’ve noticed on my property, they rut the same time every year almost right on time. Bucks start showing up like that. Or do you think it’s pressure related?
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Re: How would one measure how smart a deer is?

Unread postby Jdw » Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:14 am

checkerfred wrote:
Jdw wrote:Looking at this from a different angle.

I have trail cam pictures and observations of bucks that only spend a little bit of time on the property I hunt. They show up within a few days of the same time every year for multiple years in a row.
So I would say they have a good way to keep track of things that are important for survival.


This sounds like they’re coming through during rut. I’ve noticed on my property, they rut the same time every year almost right on time. Bucks start showing up like that. Or do you think it’s pressure related?


Mostly rut related but I have seen them show up early and late in the season also.
I would say rut and food related.
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Re: How would one measure how smart a deer is?

Unread postby ThePreBanMan » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:03 am

IDK, depends on where they went to school I guess. I hear they get a good education in Michigan... Maybe DEERborn specifically.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'll be here all week folks.


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