Question for Dan or anyone else that wants to jump in

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Killtree
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Question for Dan or anyone else that wants to jump in

Unread postby Killtree » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:11 am

I was listening to a podcast where you stated that older age class bucks were less likely to fall victim to rut funnels.
You used one particular instance for example where you killed a buck out of a bedding area that was locked down with a doe.
Still hunting doe bedding areas during lockdown is one of my favorite tactics.
I have had a lot of success doing that.

Was the buck locked down with the doe in a doe bedding area, or were they in the bucks bedding area?

Do you think the older a buck gets the more likely he is to let the does come to him?

I always figured that once the rut started bed hunting would be less productive because the buck would be less likely to be home.
Do you think the older a buck gets the more likely it will be that he uses his bedding area throughout the rut just like he does the rest of the year?


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Re: Question for Dan or anyone else that wants to jump in

Unread postby Rob loper » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:18 am

I think you gotta find the buck beds that are close by snd almost over look entry and exit routes of doe bedding
I asked dan this almost same question and he said.
That usually. Does are bedded not to far from bucks anyway. Look for a couple of beds in some thick areas that have several beds in it. It’s usualy does bedding in a circle looking out for one another. Then look for terrain features nearby that will gave a buck bed that over looks those doe beds
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Re: Question for Dan or anyone else that wants to jump in

Unread postby Boogieman1 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:45 pm

IMO it depends on a whole lot of variables. First deer density, age structure and sex ratio. Next the type of terrain u hunt, last pressure put on them.

Every mature buck moves less in daylight than a young buck, however every buck has its own personality. Some have a personality to move more in daylight than others. In a high pressured area these deer are in a deep freeze by 2.5!

If u hunt hill country with low deer density the oldest wisest of bucks is eventually gonna be forced to move in daylight for procreation of the species. But still as Stan the man says all things begin at point A! There are funnels that produce and there's funnels that don't. Going in blind for the sake of it just being a funnel is not time well spent.

If u don't know a particular bucks habits and tendencies and know for a fact that the funnel is not getting any traffic from anyone. The bedding is your best bet every time.
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Re: Question for Dan or anyone else that wants to jump in

Unread postby Rob loper » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:50 pm

Boogieman1 wrote:IMO it depends on a whole lot of variables. First deer density, age structure and sex ratio. Next the type of terrain u hunt, last pressure put on them.

Every mature buck moves less in daylight than a young buck, however every buck has its own personality. Some have a personality to move more in daylight than others. In a high pressured area these deer are in a deep freeze by 2.5!

If u hunt hill country with low deer density the oldest wisest of bucks is eventually gonna be forced to move in daylight for procreation of the species. But still as Stan the man says all things begin at point A! There are funnels that produce and there's funnels that don't. Going in blind for the sake of it just being a funnel is not time well spent.

If u don't know a particular bucks habits and tendencies and know for a fact that the funnel is not getting any traffic from anyone. The bedding is your best bet every time.



I agree boogie
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Re: Question for Dan or anyone else that wants to jump in

Unread postby Jeff G » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:00 pm

Does won’t bed where bucks bed. During rut does don’t want to b harassed by bucks.

The big bucks don’t seek and chase like the young dumb ones do.

Most of the breeding is at night by big stuff.

We hunt bedding all year long even in the rut.
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Re: Question for Dan or anyone else that wants to jump in

Unread postby mauser06 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:05 pm

Jeff, do you think that's still the case I places with a low deer density and a very out of balanced buck to doe ratio???



2 seasons ago I was still hunting in Michigan and came across 2 different mature does bedded IN buck beds. Unless they were both bucks that shed early...possibly the same deer..I bounced it once and a few knobs over bounced it or another.

Both were in classic hill country buck beds.


I thought maybe in a case like that...big woods..low deer density and a low buck to doe ratio ( a lot more doe than buck). That maybe the mature doe were seeking the bucks.
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Re: Question for Dan or anyone else that wants to jump in

Unread postby Jeff G » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:05 pm

mauser06 wrote:Jeff, do you think that's still the case I places with a low deer density and a very out of balanced buck to doe ratio???



2 seasons ago I was still hunting in Michigan and came across 2 different mature does bedded IN buck beds. Unless they were both bucks that shed early...possibly the same deer..I bounced it once and a few knobs over bounced it or another.

Both were in classic hill country buck beds.


I thought maybe in a case like that...big woods..low deer density and a low buck to doe ratio ( a lot more doe than buck). That maybe the mature doe were seeking the bucks.


I don’t think population changes it. Think of it more as if Doe and mature bucks are 2 different species. Just as young bucks and mature bucks are different species.

Does are more social group animals. Mature does still will be part of the for group for security. Mature bucks are loners.
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Re: Question for Dan or anyone else that wants to jump in

Unread postby MikePerry » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:02 pm

I’ve learned through observations and trail camera data over the years that the mature bucks in the areas I hunt have several beds they will use through the season, I guarantee I’ve never found them all or could I. The bucks show up for a couple days or a week then disappear for that same length of time. My best guess is that they are going to different areas to seek doe groups that may come into estrus at the same time each year. It would explain how mature bucks often end up in the same locations almost to the day from one year to the next.

I feel that one of the best times to kill a mature buck is when he’s most valuable and that’s when he’s out of his comfort zone or out of his home range. Since I know that a mature buck has many possiable bed sites during the rut to me my odds of killing a mature buck are much greater in a funnel near doe bedding than trying to hit that buck in the right bed on the right day. Doe tend to be more predictable in their bedding in the areas I hunt than mature bucks. I’d rather hunt a funnel where those doe may lead that buck by me weather it’s by her walking through there on the way to bedding in the morning, by him cursing from one doe bedding area to another or by him chasing here out in the evening. It only makes sense to me that there are more factors in my favor to kill a mature buck in a funnel during the rut than to set up on a specific buck bed. The one that sticks out the most to me is any mature buck within miles could come through that funnel any minute I’m there, he’s out of his comfort zone now, I’m hunting him on my terms not his. If I was hunting a specific buck bed that buck could be three miles away during the rut and I’m waiting for him and hunting him on his terms.

Not all funnels are created equal and not all funnels are identifiable by looking at any map. I’ve ran trail cameras on funnels since 2002 when I was using 35 mm film and I’ve sat funnels all day during the rut two to three weeks every year since the early 90’s and I’ve killed several mature bucks usually around mid morning to mid afternoon in funnels, and I’ve gotten countless photos of mature bucks walking through funnels during daylight some alone some following doe. Now I may not kill a specific buck I want in a funnel but my odds of killing a mature buck are greatly increased in a funnel than any other set up I can think of during the rut. If your hunting a specific buck then maybe hunting his beds is the way to go but hunting a specific buck does not always go well for me hunting pressured deer on public land in PA or the private farms I hunt in NE Ohio. Disclaimer I’m hunting mostly swamps and marshes with river or creek systems running through them.

Mike
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Re: Question for Dan or anyone else that wants to jump in

Unread postby Babshaft » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:18 am

MikePerry wrote:I’ve learned through observations and trail camera data over the years that the mature bucks in the areas I hunt have several beds they will use through the season, I guarantee I’ve never found them all or could I. The bucks show up for a couple days or a week then disappear for that same length of time. My best guess is that they are going to different areas to seek doe groups that may come into estrus at the same time each year. It would explain how mature bucks often end up in the same locations almost to the day from one year to the next.

I feel that one of the best times to kill a mature buck is when he’s most valuable and that’s when he’s out of his comfort zone or out of his home range. Since I know that a mature buck has many possiable bed sites during the rut to me my odds of killing a mature buck are much greater in a funnel near doe bedding than trying to hit that buck in the right bed on the right day. Doe tend to be more predictable in their bedding in the areas I hunt than mature bucks. I’d rather hunt a funnel where those doe may lead that buck by me weather it’s by her walking through there on the way to bedding in the morning, by him cursing from one doe bedding area to another or by him chasing here out in the evening. It only makes sense to me that there are more factors in my favor to kill a mature buck in a funnel during the rut than to set up on a specific buck bed. The one that sticks out the most to me is any mature buck within miles could come through that funnel any minute I’m there, he’s out of his comfort zone now, I’m hunting him on my terms not his. If I was hunting a specific buck bed that buck could be three miles away during the rut and I’m waiting for him and hunting him on his terms.

Not all funnels are created equal and not all funnels are identifiable by looking at any map. I’ve ran trail cameras on funnels since 2002 when I was using 35 mm film and I’ve sat funnels all day during the rut two to three weeks every year since the early 90’s and I’ve killed several mature bucks usually around mid morning to mid afternoon in funnels, and I’ve gotten countless photos of mature bucks walking through funnels during daylight some alone some following doe. Now I may not kill a specific buck I want in a funnel but my odds of killing a mature buck are greatly increased in a funnel than any other set up I can think of during the rut. If your hunting a specific buck then maybe hunting his beds is the way to go but hunting a specific buck does not always go well for me hunting pressured deer on public land in PA or the private farms I hunt in NE Ohio. Disclaimer I’m hunting mostly swamps and marshes with river or creek systems running through them.

Mike


Thanks for that awesome podcast! Is there a particular funnel you have more success with in the swamps and marshes? Are you looking at creek crossings or connecting timber? I can identify the bedding and travel routes in the swamps I’m hunting but nothing really strikes me as a perfect funnel.
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Re: Question for Dan or anyone else that wants to jump in

Unread postby Killtree » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:49 am

MikePerry wrote:I’ve learned through observations and trail camera data over the years that the mature bucks in the areas I hunt have several beds they will use through the season, I guarantee I’ve never found them all or could I. The bucks show up for a couple days or a week then disappear for that same length of time. My best guess is that they are going to different areas to seek doe groups that may come into estrus at the same time each year. It would explain how mature bucks often end up in the same locations almost to the day from one year to the next.

I feel that one of the best times to kill a mature buck is when he’s most valuable and that’s when he’s out of his comfort zone or out of his home range. Since I know that a mature buck has many possiable bed sites during the rut to me my odds of killing a mature buck are much greater in a funnel near doe bedding than trying to hit that buck in the right bed on the right day. Doe tend to be more predictable in their bedding in the areas I hunt than mature bucks. I’d rather hunt a funnel where those doe may lead that buck by me weather it’s by her walking through there on the way to bedding in the morning, by him cursing from one doe bedding area to another or by him chasing here out in the evening. It only makes sense to me that there are more factors in my favor to kill a mature buck in a funnel during the rut than to set up on a specific buck bed. The one that sticks out the most to me is any mature buck within miles could come through that funnel any minute I’m there, he’s out of his comfort zone now, I’m hunting him on my terms not his. If I was hunting a specific buck bed that buck could be three miles away during the rut and I’m waiting for him and hunting him on his terms.

Not all funnels are created equal and not all funnels are identifiable by looking at any map. I’ve ran trail cameras on funnels since 2002 when I was using 35 mm film and I’ve sat funnels all day during the rut two to three weeks every year since the early 90’s and I’ve killed several mature bucks usually around mid morning to mid afternoon in funnels, and I’ve gotten countless photos of mature bucks walking through funnels during daylight some alone some following doe. Now I may not kill a specific buck I want in a funnel but my odds of killing a mature buck are greatly increased in a funnel than any other set up I can think of during the rut. If your hunting a specific buck then maybe hunting his beds is the way to go but hunting a specific buck does not always go well for me hunting pressured deer on public land in PA or the private farms I hunt in NE Ohio. Disclaimer I’m hunting mostly swamps and marshes with river or creek systems running through them.

Mike


I think some people are confusing mature buck with older age class buck.
I get the impression that Dan considers
3 1/2 to kind of be the cut off for day time cruising behavior. The older they get,the less likely they are to do it.
I know the Wensels believe some bucks do not participate in the rut.
So if a buck decides at 4.5 years old he has had enough of daytime cruising, what age will he be when he decides to prioritize survival over all else and only messes with a doe out of absolute convenience.
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Re: Question for Dan or anyone else that wants to jump in

Unread postby dan » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:04 am

Killtree wrote:I was listening to a podcast where you stated that older age class bucks were less likely to fall victim to rut funnels.
You used one particular instance for example where you killed a buck out of a bedding area that was locked down with a doe.
Still hunting doe bedding areas during lockdown is one of my favorite tactics.
I have had a lot of success doing that.

Was the buck locked down with the doe in a doe bedding area, or were they in the bucks bedding area?

Do you think the older a buck gets the more likely he is to let the does come to him?

I always figured that once the rut started bed hunting would be less productive because the buck would be less likely to be home.
Do you think the older a buck gets the more likely it will be that he uses his bedding area throughout the rut just like he does the rest of the year?


Im having a hard time remembering the hunt where a buck was locked down with a doe... I think I know what hunt your talking about, but some of what your saying seems a little off. If its the hunt I think your referring to, ( the Rome legend buck)The 1st time I hunted the buck it was indeed locked down with a doe. He was in a small doe bedding area that was about 80 yards from the primary buck bedding. On that hunt I jumped the doe and buck and they split, one going one way, the other a different direction. I assumed the buck may come back looking for the doe and set up right over the bedding. I was not far enough to the down wind side and the buck winded me when he came back 2 hours later.

However, I killed him a year later at about the same time on the same pattern Halloween evening Oct 31st out of the primary buck bedding area 80 yards from that spot. That buck was living in a hunting preserve across the street from the public that has high dollar managed hunts. He would for some reason come over to the public side during pre-rut. There are many bedding areas on this side, but one is absolutely the best primary spot year round for big bucks. Every time something big shows up in that section of public, I see it there.

It gets even better in rut cause there is a well used doe bedding area just up wind of this primary buck bedding area. Although I find the local big bucks in this bedding area all season long, bigger bucks, and bucks from further out start showing up more regularly during rut. Some maybe I don't have history with, some I do, but certainly not as random as people would think.

My history with the Rome legend buck was telling me to watch for him to show on my side and to set up on the primary bedding area as soon as I know he is on my side... Rumors started of guys around town seeing him, and shining him on the public side, so I checked the rublines and found fresh rubs that were waste to chest high at the center. The rubs were a couple hundred yards from the buck bedding, but I know they are from bucks leaving that bedding.

Based on the wind, I was pretty sure I new exactly which bed he would be in, within the primary bedding area and I was staring right at it when I watched him rise up that afternoon. Peak rut and by the time he made it 75 yards it was almost closing time when I shot him. No, he was not with a doe.

How would you ever kill a buck that only moves 75 yards from his bed in daylight sitting in a funnel? Furthermore, with the extreme number of hunters on these properties if bucks like that even took one day to run around looking for does thru all the funnels he would be dead and would never have made it to 4 or 5 years old. I have seen bucks as old as 9.5 get taken out in this heavy pressure marsh.No way a deer like that was running thru funnels. I actually had to walk past and around 4 different hunters within a few hundred yards of this buck to get to the kill spot.

Bucks do make the occasional mistake, and thats why every once in a while a guy will get a crack at big bucks in rut.... But lets look at how many bow hunters hunt rut funnels, and how many of those guys are shooting big bucks on a regular basis year after year... Most of the bucks running thru rut funnels are young inexperienced bucks. It is a great way to get onto "nice" bucks... But something needs to change to get to the next level and kill the giants regularily.

Most of the bedding I see in rut is bedding areas that are near does. I call them rut beds. The beds themselves are hard to find or see in spring cause in a lot of cases they are only used during the rut. They are usually well rubbed though. A lot of the time doe bedding is rather close to buck bedding, especially in primary bedding areas. So in this case they don't use a special rut bed, the primary bedding area works as the rut bed where they either smell, watch, or can leave and smell the doe crossing trails when they get up.

Do you think the older a buck gets the more likely he is to let the does come to him?


I have seen some evidence of does choosing bucks, like a doe visiting a scrape at the staging area of the buck, peeing in it, then laying down next to it presumably waiting for his return. However, the over all majority of my encounters have been with the buck seeking out the doe. What I see with older bucks is that the more its a pressure area, the more they do this in the confines of safety. There may be a day or two they move to much in daylight and take risks, but most of the time the movements are kept in close proximity to bedding till after dark. Look at the youtube video where I shoot the buck I did not recover this year. The doe was being chased in and out of a thick primary bedding area most of the afternoon. She did not draw the bucks chasing her out thru distant funnels till the last 15 minutes of shooting light. And, the bucks that were chasing her past me and Daves stands constantly were all 1 year onld bucks. Then right at the edge of closing the buck I shot came sneaking out to follow. He was in there the whole time with all those bucks chasing her around but was smart enough to stay in the safe area till dark.
I always figured that once the rut started bed hunting would be less productive because the buck would be less likely to be home.
Do you think the older a buck gets the more likely it will be that he uses his bedding area throughout the rut just like he does the rest of the year?


Some bedding areas may slow down, others pick up... But I do think to take the step from "nice" bucks to giants, you need to hunt bedding if you want to achieve killing them on a regular basis, or hunt for properties and leases where bucks can grow to old age without dieing. Bucks get schooled pretty quick in public and pressured areas. Most of the mature bucks I shoot we find broadheads, slogs, or wounds in. They learn quick or die.
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Re: Question for Dan or anyone else that wants to jump in

Unread postby MikePerry » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:42 am

Babshaft wrote:
MikePerry wrote:I’ve learned through observations and trail camera data over the years that the mature bucks in the areas I hunt have several beds they will use through the season, I guarantee I’ve never found them all or could I. The bucks show up for a couple days or a week then disappear for that same length of time. My best guess is that they are going to different areas to seek doe groups that may come into estrus at the same time each year. It would explain how mature bucks often end up in the same locations almost to the day from one year to the next.

I feel that one of the best times to kill a mature buck is when he’s most valuable and that’s when he’s out of his comfort zone or out of his home range. Since I know that a mature buck has many possiable bed sites during the rut to me my odds of killing a mature buck are much greater in a funnel near doe bedding than trying to hit that buck in the right bed on the right day. Doe tend to be more predictable in their bedding in the areas I hunt than mature bucks. I’d rather hunt a funnel where those doe may lead that buck by me weather it’s by her walking through there on the way to bedding in the morning, by him cursing from one doe bedding area to another or by him chasing here out in the evening. It only makes sense to me that there are more factors in my favor to kill a mature buck in a funnel during the rut than to set up on a specific buck bed. The one that sticks out the most to me is any mature buck within miles could come through that funnel any minute I’m there, he’s out of his comfort zone now, I’m hunting him on my terms not his. If I was hunting a specific buck bed that buck could be three miles away during the rut and I’m waiting for him and hunting him on his terms.

Not all funnels are created equal and not all funnels are identifiable by looking at any map. I’ve ran trail cameras on funnels since 2002 when I was using 35 mm film and I’ve sat funnels all day during the rut two to three weeks every year since the early 90’s and I’ve killed several mature bucks usually around mid morning to mid afternoon in funnels, and I’ve gotten countless photos of mature bucks walking through funnels during daylight some alone some following doe. Now I may not kill a specific buck I want in a funnel but my odds of killing a mature buck are greatly increased in a funnel than any other set up I can think of during the rut. If your hunting a specific buck then maybe hunting his beds is the way to go but hunting a specific buck does not always go well for me hunting pressured deer on public land in PA or the private farms I hunt in NE Ohio. Disclaimer I’m hunting mostly swamps and marshes with river or creek systems running through them.

Mike


Thanks for that awesome podcast! Is there a particular funnel you have more success with in the swamps and marshes? Are you looking at creek crossings or connecting timber? I can identify the bedding and travel routes in the swamps I’m hunting but nothing really strikes me as a perfect funnel.


The funnels I’ve had the most success with have water on two sides, the best one I’ve found to date has a swamp to the east and a slow moving deep creek to the west, I cross the deep creek feet from my tree by walking across a double trunk swamp oak that has fallen across the creek, the funnel is only about 30 yards wide where I’m hunting then gets wider immediately to the north where there is a clear cut that always holds a doe group and it widens even more as you head south and there is a doe group that beds down at the end of the swamp as it turns into hard woods with mostly swamp oaks through it. That’s as close to a perfect funnel if there is such a thing that I’ve ever found. I also hunt a few areas with a ton of oxbow lakes or what I like to call dead water. It’s basically where the meandering creek used to run years ago before it changed coarse. In real dry years it only holds water in the deepest areas, that’s when the hunting is best, the deer run the low spot that were once the creek and there are scrapes all down the edge, I set up where the current meandering creek and these oxbow dead water creeks neck down close to each other, there is usually a bend in the current creek associated with the area where the deer travel through the most.

As far as creek crossings go I look more for where deer cross beaver levies than I do creek crossings, so I guess I’d say more connecting timber where there are a secession of long beaver dams that have beaver levies every so many hundred yards, the deer tend to travel and parallel the swamp and bed in the transition along those beaver damns and the levy crossings are great funnels to set up on.
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Re: Question for Dan or anyone else that wants to jump in

Unread postby Jeff G » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:25 am

This is a funnel that produces almost everytime I hunt it correctly.
The funnel is caused by the thermal tunnel and bedding/crusing.

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Re: Question for Dan or anyone else that wants to jump in

Unread postby Stanley » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:39 am

Older bucks are on their feet much less than younger bucks. I think this is the short version of why they are less likely to go through a funnel. Plus funnels are some of the hunters favorite places to set up. Big old mature bucks know this. Because that is where the human scent is.
You can fool some of the bucks, all of the time, and fool all of the bucks, some of the time, however you certainly can't fool all of the bucks, all of the time.
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Re: Question for Dan or anyone else that wants to jump in

Unread postby Ghost Hunter » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:52 am

I like to relate deer to humans. Young bucks are going be out looking for does. They going be running through travel routes. Older bucks are going be in places that does end up in their travel. Laying and waiting. Because they know where most of does in up at. Young bucks are lower on pecking order so they keep moving and looking.
I'm reason they call it hunting and not shooting.


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