Early Rubs = Bigger bucks??

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Hatchetman
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Early Rubs = Bigger bucks??

Unread postby Hatchetman » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:24 pm

On 9/1 my son Alex and i were over to Mn to do some scouting and collect some trail cam intel we had soaking on public for 4 weeks.
2 cams in one spot, 2 cams about 5 miles away in another.
3 decent bucks at first spot, 1 of which was a shooter, for us, (120-130) got a pic of him clean on 8/30.
Second spot yielded 2 more fair bucks both about 110-120. Got a pic of the 120 clean on 9/1 (early morning of the day we got there)
We also found 4 fresh rubs in the vicinity, one of which was an impressive twist off rub covered with fresh blood. which was pretty cool! (never found one like that before!)

Although the 2 bucks at the second spot were the only 2 bucks I had pics of, the first spot had a lot of pics of 6 other small bucks, none of which had shed yet.

My assumption has always been if you find early rubs it usually means a decent buck did it. ???

I will say, in my area, 1 out of 4 little bucks will have velvet on opening weekend in Wi (mid Sept)
I have never seen a buck above 100 with velvet on opening weekend.

Even though I've shot a handful of 4-6 yo bucks in my lifetime, I will say, I do not have a lot of experience with them.

So if my assumptions are correct, for those of you who regularly see bucks of that caliber (4-6 yo +), do they shed their velvet even earlier??

Being kinda old...
I think back to the "BC" days - - (before cameras) - - when the only only intel you got was boots on the ground and reading sign. If I found these early rubs I would inevitably see a good buck in that area sometime during the season. Usually within the first 2 -3 weeks. I also feel these rubs depict his core area and that his preferred bed is close by.

I guess now with cameras you may ask "who cares" about these rubs,you should be able to get a pics of bucks and tell how big they are.
And I say, cameras don't get all bucks all the time and if you like to do preseason scouting on new turf like I do, you may find areas that call for a second look.


Anyone else have these same thoughts about early rubs or am I all wet?


ODH
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Re: Early Rubs = Bigger bucks??

Unread postby ODH » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:30 pm

older rubs earlier by me
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brancher147
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Re: Early Rubs = Bigger bucks??

Unread postby brancher147 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:40 pm

Most early rubs I see are on striped maple trees and look like little bucks trying to rub off velvet. They are usually small trees, and low down. I don't pay them much attention. I do agree that bigger racked mature bucks do seem to come out of velvet earlier than small young bucks. Most all we have around is little bucks though, if you have an area with multiple mature bucks competing for does and bedding, early rubs may be a clue to bigger bucks. Hard to say...

If I see early rubs, and big buck tracks then I start paying attention.
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Re: Early Rubs = Bigger bucks??

Unread postby JoeRE » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:44 pm

Based on rub height and observations most of the early September rubs I see are done by the middle age class of bucks. Seems like 2 and 3 year olds feel like doing more rubbing and scraping first. Yearlings don't get fired up till end of Sept or October around here. In some areas that is as big as bucks get but if I am after a more mature buck I have learned to kind of ignore that early season sign because it leads me to a buck that is not the age class I was after.

I have learned that after finding early season sign, hanging a cam or hunting on it and just about always only seeing those mid age class bucks. Just about every time I have gotten on a mature buck early season has been a result big tracks and/or seeing the big boy himself in person or on camera. Not off early season rubs and scrapes.

Not trying to dismiss anyone else's observations just sharing what I have figured out works for me early season. For many years I feel like I wasted a lot of energy early season on rubs and scrapes left by bucks I would not have wanted to shoot. Now I pay more attention to big tracks and it has gotten me further early season. I am thinking in higher pressure areas where a 3 year old is as good as it gets, that would be different.

Later in the year is a different story and a big super tall rub grabs my attention....
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headgear
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Re: Early Rubs = Bigger bucks??

Unread postby headgear » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:49 am

Every single buck is going to rub that velvet off, after that it probably gets a little random. I have a few bedding areas that get a little torn up with some rubs and scrapes early season beyond that I don't see a whole lot. Not that they aren't out there laying sign but it is hard to come by in the bigwoods.
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Hawthorne
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Re: Early Rubs = Bigger bucks??

Unread postby Hawthorne » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:57 am

Sept 13 I did an observation sit. Watched a 3 year old and a yearling come out of bedding to an oak tree. The yearling was chasing does already and making rubs. The 3 year old just ate and left. Both out of velvet
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Re: Early Rubs = Bigger bucks??

Unread postby Stanley » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:02 am

I think early rubs might = breeder bucks. Not the oldest bucks but the ones with the most testosterone. A lot of rubs are made from bed to food source, especially early season. Great way to find an early season working pattern. Food source changes so do the rub locations. Like I said a great way to find a doable pattern. :think:
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Re: Early Rubs = Bigger bucks??

Unread postby gjs4 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:47 am

I've always felt the first rubs were the biggest. Especially if it was a trashed clump of sapling sor early growth. This yr I found a great rub for any time of yr in some rather open woods. Hung a cam. Found what I assume to be the stud of the area on cam two weeks later when I grabbed it (last weekend). Wouldn't you know him and his buddies were all in velvet. Cool but not cool as their shift and stacking will change. Who knows....moral of the story I still think they're special..maybe breeders like Stanley said..but I'm hunting this area when the conditions are right.
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Dewey
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Re: Early Rubs = Bigger bucks??

Unread postby Dewey » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:04 am

Found this one a few hours ago on my way in. Seems like a pretty agressive rub for early in the season. Likely from velvet removal but typically don't see it to this degree.

Image
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elk yinzer
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Re: Early Rubs = Bigger bucks??

Unread postby elk yinzer » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:57 am

I believe individual deer, their dispositon varies a lot as it relates to rubbing. Some bucks rub hundreds of trees in a season and some hardly rub at all. If I see big rubs, I am interested, but if I know an area has some old bucks, I don't put any stock in a lack of rubs.
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Re: Early Rubs = Bigger bucks??

Unread postby Singing Bridge » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:46 am

Dewey wrote:Found this one a few hours ago on my way in. Seems like a pretty agressive rub for early in the season. Likely from velvet removal but typically don't see it to this degree.

Image


Great picture Dewey, thanks for putting it up. I find thrashings just like that in big woods, both peninsulas of Michigan and i find them often. It isn't uncommon to find them along the edge of clearcuts or swamps / marshes. When I find them the first 10 days or so of September, I normally have a 3+ year old buck on my hands.

Like Joe mentioned, 3 year old bucks on heavily pressured public lands are target bucks for many hunters and in some areas of really high hunting pressure the best you can hope for. I have been finding thrashings very similar to your picture for over 30 years now.

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Re: Early Rubs = Bigger bucks??

Unread postby Hatchetman » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:42 am

Dewey's pic shows the uniqueness of an early season rub.

I highly doubt the maker of that rub was a fork buck...

Could be a 110 3 yo or a 150 4 yo, who knows .
I've always thought,these velvet rubs, as i'll call them, can be very misleading.
For some reason, pretty decent racked bucks can lay down rubs on some very wimpy trees for velvet removal.
They actually seem to seek out wimpy stuff ( 1" dia. or less)
It also seems they have a tendency to really destroy the selected rub tree or trees to get the job done.
I believe, this is the one and only time of the year where size and height of rubs don't give you a true hint of the size of the buck that laid it down.
Stanley and Joe may be spot on with their assumptions that a lot of these early rubs could be done primarily by testosterone charged 3 yo, which would make sense because that's my "good buck" in my area. And that's what I'm basing my assumptions on.

Headgear, I understand your view point. I assume you hunt big woods in northern Mn. Patterning bucks in big woods is a huge challenge any time of year.

I guess ,
in a nutshell...
I'm trying to conclude that if most of the bucks in any particular portion of the country shed their velvet between a span of 7-10 calendar days consistently every year, would the 3,4, or 5yo be shedding 10-15 days earlier then the predominate higher population of 1.5 and 2.5 yo?
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Net Guy
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Re: Early Rubs = Bigger bucks??

Unread postby Net Guy » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:44 pm

[quote="Hatchetman"]Dewey's pic shows the uniqueness of an early season rub.

I highly doubt the maker of that rub was a fork buck...

Could be a 110 3 yo or a 150 4 yo, who knows .
I've always thought,these velvet rubs, as i'll call them, can be very misleading.
For some reason, pretty decent racked bucks can lay down rubs on some very wimpy trees for velvet removal.
They actually seem to seek out wimpy stuff ( 1" dia. or less)
It also seems they have a tendency to really destroy the selected rub tree or trees to get the job done.
I believe, this is the one and only time of the year where size and height of rubs don't give you a true hint of the size of the buck that laid it down.
Stanley and Joe may be spot on with their assumptions that a lot of these early rubs could be done primarily by testosterone charged 3 yo, which would make sense because that's my "good buck" in my area. And that's what I'm basing my assumptions on.

I've noticed the same thing where I hunt. I agree, I think the bucks seek these smaller diameter trees because they do a better job getting velvet off in all the nooks of the bucks racks. The aggressive thrashing of these trees are probably from a buck with a lot of tines! :D Anways, I believe it''s easier for bucks to use smaller diameter trees this time of the year than larger one to clean between those tines. Now whether larger bucks do that earlier in the year, not sure.


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