Better Topo Maps

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justdirtyfun
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Re: Better Topo Maps

Unread postby justdirtyfun » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:48 am

Wow. You have great information available to you. Thanks for sharing and joining us on the Beast.

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wmahunter
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Re: Better Topo Maps

Unread postby wmahunter » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:07 am

I use Arcgis Explorer and when I can find the data , I import the lidar data that has already been converted into 2' contours.
It is amazing what the florida topo's do not tell you.

2' contours make the map look very busy. But it does work, found my biggest buck bed this way. When you pinpoint a hub it is on the money for a deer crossing trail.

But I have also found when you find the proper slope angle and correct feet range caltopo will give you the same results.

Both work really well.

Downfall is trying to put these tiny contour maps on a garmin 62 is a pain in the but. So I had to switch to using markers
or lines. That made these spots much easier to pinpoint when following on the gps to the spot in question.
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bobbo1686
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Re: Better Topo Maps

Unread postby bobbo1686 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:00 am

wmahunter wrote:I use Arcgis Explorer and when I can find the data , I import the lidar data that has already been converted into 2' contours.
It is amazing what the florida topo's do not tell you.

2' contours make the map look very busy. But it does work, found my biggest buck bed this way. When you pinpoint a hub it is on the money for a deer crossing trail.

But I have also found when you find the proper slope angle and correct feet range caltopo will give you the same results.

Both work really well.

Downfall is trying to put these tiny contour maps on a garmin 62 is a pain in the but. So I had to switch to using markers
or lines. That made these spots much easier to pinpoint when following on the gps to the spot in question.


You're lucky to get that data already post processed and into contours like that! That's not generally the case in the majority of states. I definitely know what you mean about using those 2' datasets in a Garmin because they're huge! You're definitely doing it right by using points or lines to highlight good locations. I do the same thing and that's why I offer KMZs as an output. You can just open in google earth and then drop in your points to later navigate to using Google Earth or any of the several other GPS mobile applications out there that use KMZ/KML data.
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Re: Better Topo Maps

Unread postby KLEMZ » Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:36 am

Thanks for sharing this information bobbo! Everybody has different knowledge and talents and sharing what you have is very helpful to everybody on this site. Thanks again.

I would think that someone hunting hill country would be just fine with the readily available 10' elevation lines. 5' or 2' lines in hill country would be crazy busy on the eyes... sensory overload!!

However, guys hunting flattish terrain could benefit hugely from this information. Basically, the flatter the terrain, the more benefit to having 2' elevation increments! Knowing the location of subtle points and humps is a HUGE advantage in understanding where bucks will be bedding.

My question is...how accurate is this Lidar technique? Have you personally tested the accuracy by navigating to an isolated (LIDAR) structure to verify it is actually there? I ask this because I have noticed a LOT of the "digital" topo maps out there hese days seem to be LESS accurate COPIES of the original USGS topos made via aerial photos and stereograph hand drawing.

Personally, I use copies of the original USGS topos (digital copies of the original paper maps) on my GPS for navigation in hill country. I use aerial photos on my GPS for navigating in marsh/swamp terrain. Topos are not very helpful here........UNLESS! you can provide ACCURATE 2' contour lines to show the way!

Are the Lidar topos as accurate as we need!!!
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wmahunter
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Re: Better Topo Maps

Unread postby wmahunter » Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:25 am

I have tested the lidar data (contours) I have imported. They are withiin +/- 25 feet of the exact spot. That is pretty good.

So when you find the data and learn how to use it, it can save you some time scouting.
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Re: Better Topo Maps

Unread postby bobbo1686 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:27 am

KLEMZ wrote:Thanks for sharing this information bobbo! Everybody has different knowledge and talents and sharing what you have is very helpful to everybody on this site. Thanks again.

I would think that someone hunting hill country would be just fine with the readily available 10' elevation lines. 5' or 2' lines in hill country would be crazy busy on the eyes... sensory overload!!

However, guys hunting flattish terrain could benefit hugely from this information. Basically, the flatter the terrain, the more benefit to having 2' elevation increments! Knowing the location of subtle points and humps is a HUGE advantage in understanding where bucks will be bedding.

My question is...how accurate is this Lidar technique? Have you personally tested the accuracy by navigating to an isolated (LIDAR) structure to verify it is actually there? I ask this because I have noticed a LOT of the "digital" topo maps out there hese days seem to be LESS accurate COPIES of the original USGS topos made via aerial photos and stereograph hand drawing.

Personally, I use copies of the original USGS topos (digital copies of the original paper maps) on my GPS for navigation in hill country. I use aerial photos on my GPS for navigating in marsh/swamp terrain. Topos are not very helpful here........UNLESS! you can provide ACCURATE 2' contour lines to show the way!

Are the Lidar topos as accurate as we need!!!


Great questions KLEMZ! LiDar is definitely more accurate than the historical topos. This is why I can honestly say that I can create 2' contours using most available LiDar data out there now. Shoot 6" is even possible in some cases. The difference between LiDar and the traditional photogrametry sourced maps is the way the data is collected. LiDar is an acronym for Light Detection and Ranging. It uses laser light pulses sent from a known distance and from a known position and then collected. The accuracy of the data is determined by how many laser pulse returns are collected over a given area. These returns can be filtered by where they land in the sprectrum. So therefore first returns (tree canopys, tops of buildings, etc.) can be removed to understand what the true ground surface elevations are.

Guys who hunt in hilly country can still benefit from this type of data because many times the topos with 10' contour intervals still don't show the subtle secondary points and draws that deer tend to relate more too. I will say that flatland/swamp hunt oriented hunters have far more to gain because now the small little 1-2' knoll out in the middle of the cattails becomes more apparent.

Is the final product busy for the eyes? Yes, BUT it can be alleviated by using thinner lines, more transparency, etc. to get it so the bigger picture isn't as hard to see. This isn't for everyone. Like I said in an earlier post I had never really thought of providing this type of thing because I just didn't think there were guys as crazy about reading maps as I was...then I found the Beast, and the amount of people asking me for these maps already has been pretty amazing.
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Re: Better Topo Maps

Unread postby KLEMZ » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:10 pm

Thanks for the thoughtful response bobbo. I will say that I lean towards the "mapping geek" end of the spectrum! Since following the beast I have gained a HUGE appreciation for subtle topographic/aerial features being EXTREMELY important! This has been verified multiple times in the field.

What kind of fees are you asking to make these maps?
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Re: Better Topo Maps

Unread postby bobbo1686 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:50 pm

KLEMZ wrote:Thanks for the thoughtful response bobbo. I will say that I lean towards the "mapping geek" end of the spectrum! Since following the beast I have gained a HUGE appreciation for subtle topographic/aerial features being EXTREMELY important! This has been verified multiple times in the field.

What kind of fees are you asking to make these maps?


It really depends on the size of the area and the type of product you want. I can make PDF maps which you can print out. These will include an aerial with the contour overlay, and any other boundary information I can find to throw in like public land property boundaries or even parcel boundaries if available. I can also make KMZs which you can then use in Google Earth or other mobile GPS applications. Without going into much more detail because the price would really vary widely between a 100 acre area and a 10,000 acre area if you're at all familiar with Hunterra it would be a fraction of the price of what they are getting for their maps. Printing is on you, so you don't need to go through them every time you want another copy. You just go to your local FedEx or Staples and have them print you another one if it's something bigger than the typical home printer can handle.
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Re: Better Topo Maps

Unread postby Jeff25 » Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:23 pm

I would be interested in this

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stash59
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Re: Better Topo Maps

Unread postby stash59 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:35 am

Wow I missed this originally. Thanx for the post guys!!!!
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Re: Better Topo Maps

Unread postby BowHusker » Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:54 am

This is awesome and would be very beneficial for the areas I hunt. Where can someone go to see if the area of interest has been lidar mapped?

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Re: Better Topo Maps

Unread postby RBrave » Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:56 am

I had sent a PM a few weeks back on this and haven't received a response. Would love to have this for some family land that is fairly flat -- OP, shoot me a message if you are still here!
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Re: Better Topo Maps

Unread postby lungpuncher1 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:44 am

How big an area can you do? And what would the price be? Pm me if you'd like. I'm interested. Only beasts would think a map was beautiful...

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Re: Better Topo Maps

Unread postby Kraftd » Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:22 am

GIS user here too. I'm not an expert, but know enough to get by supplementing engineering work.

In Northern IL and most of WI, I have found the County's have most of this data already processed into 1, 2, or 5' contour maps, and use it for my own mapping for my hunting. Check your County's website and look for interactive GIS mapping, and you may find some great info. Not trying hijack this at all bobbo, more just reaffirming that this level of mapping can be a game changer. To me honestly hill country is where it shines. You would be surprised what kind of points and benches a 10' interval can miss. Also great for flat areas identifying subtle changes, but honestly in most of those cases, looking at aerials is easier to identify that kind of terrain change based on vegetation.

Also, I have vetted many WI and IL county's lidar data with on the ground survey for dozens of projects and in many cases it is almost design-level accurate. In plan view it will basically be dead nuts on, vertically it should be within a foot or so depending upon the vegetated cover, all obviously pending source data accuracy, but usually when these data-sets are being done large-scale, they are investing enough to make them usable.

I have base file set-up for each of the County's I hunt regularly and it is great for hunting.
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Re: Better Topo Maps

Unread postby bobbo1686 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:11 pm

Kraftd wrote:GIS user here too. I'm not an expert, but know enough to get by supplementing engineering work.

In Northern IL and most of WI, I have found the County's have most of this data already processed into 1, 2, or 5' contour maps, and use it for my own mapping for my hunting. Check your County's website and look for interactive GIS mapping, and you may find some great info. Not trying hijack this at all bobbo, more just reaffirming that this level of mapping can be a game changer. To me honestly hill country is where it shines. You would be surprised what kind of points and benches a 10' interval can miss. Also great for flat areas identifying subtle changes, but honestly in most of those cases, looking at aerials is easier to identify that kind of terrain change based on vegetation.

Also, I have vetted many WI and IL county's lidar data with on the ground survey for dozens of projects and in many cases it is almost design-level accurate. In plan view it will basically be dead nuts on, vertically it should be within a foot or so depending upon the vegetated cover, all obviously pending source data accuracy, but usually when these data-sets are being done large-scale, they are investing enough to make them usable.

I have base file set-up for each of the County's I hunt regularly and it is great for hunting.


When counties have this data available to view in your browser you can consider yourself a happy hunter! For instance the county I live in has 10 footers but the county to the north has 5 footers. The 5 footers are awesome for hill country. even when this data is available I will still create the 5' lines so I can view them in Google Earth. I've made these datasets already for guys on this thread and they will also tell you that overlaying contours on Google Earth is a game changer because you have everything right there. I will often turn on the contour overlay and then change the aerial imagery to note changes in veg types which associated with topographic changes make some great transitions/funnels. I've found these edges in public land where 8-12 a years ago there was a heavy cut but the new imagery doesn't show that. The topography works with that because the logging doesn't extend down into ravines. So these two conditions work together to create great funnels. Just one instance of where this type of overlay can really pay off!

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