outside of the pre-rut/rut tactics

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DaveT1963
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Re: outside of the pre-rut/rut tactics

Unread postby DaveT1963 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:39 am

Just remember - you focus on the one that is most limited. Everything is related to bedding. Deer, when they are moving are either moving from bedding to water, food, sex or security or from those sources back to bedding.

And JoeRE has made a point that is often overlooked and forgotten by many hunters. When a buck has plenty of food, water and cover where he beds he can be almost unkillable until an outside force like the RUT or human pressure moves him. When we have a wet summer and a huge acorn crop - bucks here don't move much in early season. During times like this the smartest move you may make is to [glow=red]NOT HUNT[/glow]. Instead, go hunt another buck that is killable and wait for the PRE-rut to get this buck moving. Too many folks will MAKE A BUCK NOCTURNAL because they try to hunt them when and where they have very little chance at killing them.


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Re: outside of the pre-rut/rut tactics

Unread postby stash59 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:01 am

Great thread! very informative!! 8-) :clap: :clap:
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Re: outside of the pre-rut/rut tactics

Unread postby Mathewshooter » Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:22 pm

DaveT1963 wrote:Just remember - you focus on the one that is most limited. Everything is related to bedding. Deer, when they are moving are either moving from bedding to water, food, sex or security or from those sources back to bedding.

And JoeRE has made a point that is often overlooked and forgotten by many hunters. When a buck has plenty of food, water and cover where he beds he can be almost unkillable until an outside force like the RUT or human pressure moves him. When we have a wet summer and a huge acorn crop - bucks here don't move much in early season. During times like this the smartest move you may make is to [glow=red]NOT HUNT[/glow]. Instead, go hunt another buck that is killable and wait for the PRE-rut to get this buck moving. Too many folks will MAKE A BUCK NOCTURNAL because they try to hunt them when and where they have very little chance at killing them.


I cannot agree with this last paragraph any more! Guys at my camp laugh at me because I dont hunt much till around Halloween. They are out nearly every day from Oct 1st on and when the rut gets going they wonder why they dont see any deer and I do. I try telling them they are burning out their areas but they dont listen!
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Re: outside of the pre-rut/rut tactics

Unread postby Mibowfreak » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:14 am

DaveT1963 wrote:A whitetail deer really is not that hard to understand. There are four basic needs that drive him and dictate where he will be at any given time. 1) food 2) water 3) sex 4) security. Outside the rut - #3 is not a big factor. Depending on where you live the other three can vary as to importance. In the Midwest - outside late winter, food is not that uncommon so it is a matter of finding where they ARE feeding. In other parts of the country, food can be crucial and deer might travel long distances to a preferred food source. The trouble with making food you primary target to take a big buck, is that once hunting pressure starts food goes down the list and a wary buck doesn't take a lot of chances exposing himself - this is where focusing on natural browse close to bedding and isolated oaks deep in cover can be good. Most hunters realize food and thus they hunt these areas as finding sign is easy.

#2 - my personal favorite early season tactic is water. Since early season is often warm (hot where I live) all deer will need water. So, if the area you are hunting has limited water sources these can be a great tactic. In my notes, most bucks will hit an isolated water source right before bedding (thus most bedding areas are related to water) and then again in the early evening when they get up. If it is really hot these early evening visits can easily turn into mid day early afternoon visits. I believe the best place to kill a mature buck is on an extremely hot day at an isolated water source close to his bed. Most of the time he will be bedding, or at least approach, from the downwind side so set up is crucial. Winter scouting can clue you in on the faint downwind trails the bucks like to use. Don't be fooled by the major deer trails because outside the rut, these are mainly used by does and young bucks.

#4) this is the most flexible of all because each mature buck is very individualistic and what one feels safe to call security another may not. Some bucks prefer to get into the thickest and nastiest stuff relying on ears to keep them safe. others will not forgo using their nose so their beds are picked to make best use. Still others prefer sight. Most rely on as many of their senses as possible with the slight edge going to their noses. it also depends on the pressure and amount of pressure they receive.

I skipped #3 as this is related to rut/pre/rut and OP stated he wanted to focus on other times. Just understand, that #3 can and will change most buck patterns - but there are some older deer that for whatever reason don't care as much as others - I personally believe a lot of older mature bucks fall into this category as I have seen some of these that rarely scrape, rub or get caught out in the open chasing does.

But here is the one thing I have noticed about mature animals - like many of us, the older they get the more defined their preferences become - IMHO. I have noticed that big bucks tend to do the same thing and repeat annual patterns. If you see a big buck chasing does on Nov 6th in a certain area - then I would definitely make note of that and if he is still around I would PLAN on hunting him that same time and area the next year.

There are just so many variables that I believe you have to approach each deer you are hunting with as much knowledge about HIM and try to isolate where HE is vulnerable. I remember one buck that was like clockwork - he hit a small pond every single day around 2:00 PM - but this waterhole was unhuntable due to wind, location/proximity to bed and the fact that there was no good approach other then through some private property and that was not happening. I think he died after living a long life.

BLUF: all Bucks need 4 basic things, Find the one that is least available (this almost becomes a funnel in itself) and focus on where he is most vulnerable in his habits/routine using that knowledge. Then hunt hard and have fun and realize that we don't, and I hope we never do, win the vast majority of set ups...... that's what keeps me coming back each year :)




Top notch information right there. I am a big believer that every buck has some type of weakness in his routine.

Great post Dave.
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Re: outside of the pre-rut/rut tactics

Unread postby mainebowhunter » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:13 am

JoeRE wrote:Good topic to visit. Dave summed up the major factors well. In dry spells water is something I key in on also. When it has been dry for 2-3 weeks water starts becoming a higher priority. When its anywhere from average to wet conditions though, its hard to go 300 yards in any direction without finding a pond, creek, or seep though. I have a couple areas where water sources are less common than usual and its interesting to see how big of an impact that has on deer movement in those areas. I can see why you key in on water so much based on that Dave.

Early season is a time I continue to struggle with for a couple of reasons. I have found success here and there but not consistently. I know part of the problem is "early" for me is not early enough in some ways. Iowa has an Oct 1 opener which is too late to catch summer patterns most of the time. Fall changes in food, bedding etc are already starting to occur, relative dominance is being established with some bucks being pushed around, crops are coming out causing more disruptions. Still...the bucks are there and I want to feel more confident in that time period. Its something I have focused on more the last couple years and will continue to spend a lot more effort on.

So far I have learned a few things. The thing that often complicates matters around here is an overabundance of food, usually acorns around here, causing bucks to move very little. Early season hill country buck bedding is also challenging to pinpoint, a lot of times its hard to ID in the spring scouting because things look so different and seems like bucks leave less sign around it not to mention it was about 6 months ago by March-April. [glow=red]Most of the good early season buck bedding I have located to date was from observations (tracks, pics etc) during that time period and putting the pieces together then, not just from spring scouting. That is part of the reason I have started to spend more time doing low-impact scouting right before and during early season on top of spring scouting. Early season sign is hard for me to ID in the spring - compared to pre-rut or rut sign which is a lot more obvious.[/glow]
I also focus on the fact older bucks tend to be loners, keep to themselves early season. Seems like most mature bucks just don't want to be bothered even by other deer. If I find what looks like good buck bedding far away from where most other deer would be, I note that it might be used early season.


Good point. This is really the same tactic I use. Oct 1st can be the very tail end of the summertime pattern. Sometimes, I can catch the last week of it. Meaning, where the deer were in August, I can catch them there very first part of October. Mind you, there is no AG, just browse and mast crop.

I also spend a LOT of time running trail cameras. Some years, certain farms have 2-3 mature bucks to chase...other years, only 1. All the tactics in the world cannot put more deer on that farm. This past season, really only 1 mature deer on that farm. (call it a farm, mostly timber). Primary beds, secondary beds...mean nothing if there are no bucks to fill them.
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Re: outside of the pre-rut/rut tactics

Unread postby JoeRE » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:23 am

Mathewshooter wrote:
DaveT1963 wrote:Just remember - you focus on the one that is most limited. Everything is related to bedding. Deer, when they are moving are either moving from bedding to water, food, sex or security or from those sources back to bedding.

And JoeRE has made a point that is often overlooked and forgotten by many hunters. When a buck has plenty of food, water and cover where he beds he can be almost unkillable until an outside force like the RUT or human pressure moves him. When we have a wet summer and a huge acorn crop - bucks here don't move much in early season. During times like this the smartest move you may make is to [glow=red]NOT HUNT[/glow]. Instead, go hunt another buck that is killable and wait for the PRE-rut to get this buck moving. Too many folks will MAKE A BUCK NOCTURNAL because they try to hunt them when and where they have very little chance at killing them.


I cannot agree with this last paragraph any more! Guys at my camp laugh at me because I dont hunt much till around Halloween. They are out nearly every day from Oct 1st on and when the rut gets going they wonder why they dont see any deer and I do. I try telling them they are burning out their areas but they dont listen!


Yea, many hunters just want to spend every day they can in the woods. Heck I have been one of those guys, but its not a coincidence that a number of years ago when I started to have really limited hunting time, at the same time my success started to skyrocket particularly in the month of October. I was starting to pick the best times to hunt spots, and not booger up good spots by too many hunts.

If you really want to be out there every day, my advice is to line up a bunch of mediocre spots where you can just go sit in the woods. I myself wouldn't even do that anymore because I used to hunt every day as a kid and by the time the rut started I would just want to shoot the first medium sized buck I saw and quit for the year, was burned out.

Looking back at the last 10 years in my hunting log, most years I hunt less than half a dozen times the entire month of October. Often no more than 1 or 2 hunts early season, only when I have some kind of intel on getting a chance at a big buck at a specific location.

The Beast has a bunch of highly skilled hunters on here, but even then you don't see many early season kills get posted till a big cold front hits. Yea I know its possible to be successful in other weather conditions and you should keep an eye out for any other opportunity such as a water source in hot weather, but that is pretty darn revealing.
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Re: outside of the pre-rut/rut tactics

Unread postby jbone23 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:43 am

I've had some trouble using beast tactics in bama mostly because clear cuts there tend to be so big and impenetrable. The few times I ve had chances at deer in them its been so thick I couldn't get a shot. My highest percentage time of year in bama is first week of early season working on feeding patterns to white oaks. I look for something close to the "bluff funnel theory". For me that is white oaks close to a swamp that is relatively high elevation in comparison to surrounding area and a clear cut close by. This gives you all the deer needs: food, water, bedding, and does. I've noticed that swamps with less elevation change with the surrounding hardwoods to be better. You can hunt a lot closer to them and not be covered in hogs. Deer will use them as beds too, sometimes.
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Re: outside of the pre-rut/rut tactics

Unread postby Peeps22 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:53 am

Mathewshooter wrote:
DaveT1963 wrote:Just remember - you focus on the one that is most limited. Everything is related to bedding. Deer, when they are moving are either moving from bedding to water, food, sex or security or from those sources back to bedding.

And JoeRE has made a point that is often overlooked and forgotten by many hunters. When a buck has plenty of food, water and cover where he beds he can be almost unkillable until an outside force like the RUT or human pressure moves him. When we have a wet summer and a huge acorn crop - bucks here don't move much in early season. During times like this the smartest move you may make is to [glow=red]NOT HUNT[/glow]. Instead, go hunt another buck that is killable and wait for the PRE-rut to get this buck moving. Too many folks will MAKE A BUCK NOCTURNAL because they try to hunt them when and where they have very little chance at killing them.


I cannot agree with this last paragraph any more! Guys at my camp laugh at me because I dont hunt much till around Halloween. They are out nearly every day from Oct 1st on and when the rut gets going they wonder why they dont see any deer and I do. I try telling them they are burning out their areas but they dont listen!


As much as i agree with not burning your spots up, my experiences have been somewhat different.

I dont have any exclusive private land to myself... my families lease is hunted by 13 other guys. Another piece two friends and myself hunt. Alot of people just focus on the rut... even public, up until the end of oct. There arent many guys on the public, but once Nov. 1st rolls around, everybody and there brother is out hunting because that is "the only time that bucks move."

90% of hunters are using rut tactics early season/pre-rut/post rut/late season.

Im not saying the rut is not a good time to be putting hours in the stand but if youre not hunting before/after the rut, i think youre really missing out on good action if youre using the right tactics to get on them before the pressure and hunter #'s pick up...

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Re: outside of the pre-rut/rut tactics

Unread postby Peeps22 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:57 am

I guess the point im trying to make is dont limit yourself to only a few pieces of ground to hunt because then, yes, you will burn up your ground and wont see much action. I work my but off to find alot of good bedding on private and public to hunt so i can hunt ALOT and still be hunting fresh beds everytime out.

Also, dont be afraid to try something that may seem crazy. Sometimes thats what it will take to get on bucks. Think outside the box and do things other guys arent.

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Re: outside of the pre-rut/rut tactics

Unread postby ozzz » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:46 am

Good thread.

I agree that for the amount of attention to killing bucks before the rut around here, very few are actually killed that way. That tells ya something.


Especially if you are on small private. You better have a very good reason to hunt before a rut cold front, especially more than once. You will soon be doing yourself more harm than good.
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Re: outside of the pre-rut/rut tactics

Unread postby Mathewshooter » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:52 am

Peeps22 wrote:
Mathewshooter wrote:
DaveT1963 wrote:Just remember - you focus on the one that is most limited. Everything is related to bedding. Deer, when they are moving are either moving from bedding to water, food, sex or security or from those sources back to bedding.

And JoeRE has made a point that is often overlooked and forgotten by many hunters. When a buck has plenty of food, water and cover where he beds he can be almost unkillable until an outside force like the RUT or human pressure moves him. When we have a wet summer and a huge acorn crop - bucks here don't move much in early season. During times like this the smartest move you may make is to [glow=red]NOT HUNT[/glow]. Instead, go hunt another buck that is killable and wait for the PRE-rut to get this buck moving. Too many folks will MAKE A BUCK NOCTURNAL because they try to hunt them when and where they have very little chance at killing them.


I cannot agree with this last paragraph any more! Guys at my camp laugh at me because I dont hunt much till around Halloween. They are out nearly every day from Oct 1st on and when the rut gets going they wonder why they dont see any deer and I do. I try telling them they are burning out their areas but they dont listen!


As much as i agree with not burning your spots up, my experiences have been somewhat different.

I dont have any exclusive private land to myself... my families lease is hunted by 13 other guys. Another piece two friends and myself hunt. Alot of people just focus on the rut... even public, up until the end of oct. There arent many guys on the public, but once Nov. 1st rolls around, everybody and there brother is out hunting because that is "the only time that bucks move."

90% of hunters are using rut tactics early season/pre-rut/post rut/late season.

Im not saying the rut is not a good time to be putting hours in the stand but if youre not hunting before/after the rut, i think youre really missing out on good action if youre using the right tactics to get on them before the pressure and hunter #'s pick up...

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Believe me, I still hunt early season...its just not in my best spots and not every morning and afternoon. I sleep in most early season mornings unless its gonna be cold out. I guess I should have clarified that I dont burn out my best spots early season and also dont burn myself out. Once the rut starts, I go balls to the wall. Early season for me is usually a time to shoot some does and hang out with the guys at camp. If I happen to have a good buck walk by me thats just a bonus.
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Re: outside of the pre-rut/rut tactics

Unread postby Peeps22 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:57 am

Totally agree, i rarely hunt mornings early season either. I totally get what youre saying about not burning out good spots too. Normally i wont hit good bedding until a good cold front moves in.

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Re: outside of the pre-rut/rut tactics

Unread postby SEMObowhunter » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:29 am

I think JoeRE hit the nail on the head. He's not saying don't hunt period, he's saying stack the odds. Like wait until a buck is using a bed and when you get a perfect wind for that bed aligned with a major weather front coming in. Something that will have the buck up earlier than normal. If you hunt every chance you get and hunt the same buck, most likely you won't get a shot at him until he is chasing a doe because you have your scent all over, or have bumped him and not even known it. He is saying don't hunt just to hunt, hunt when you have a high odds chance at killing him. My success has really gone up when I quit hunting just to hunt. If I want to do that I go somewhere and just try and kill a doe. But I wait until 2 or more factors are lined up to put that buck on his feet during the time I have to be there or I just wait until a better day. Good post JoeRE, keep it going guys.
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Re: outside of the pre-rut/rut tactics

Unread postby JoeRE » Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:01 am

Yea that was my point. I think it was Dan who first coined the term "hunting not hoping."

I started out like most hunters having half a dozen to a dozen stands hung and would basically rotate through them again and again through the season. By the time the rut started everything had been sat in multiple times and most of them would have been saved for the rut. I think we are all on the same page really - if you want to boost your odds at any resident big buck that's not the most effective way to do things. Every potential setup has a best time period to hunt it so save that setup for that time - early season, pre-rut, rut etc. If you have a bunch of great early season spots by all means hunt your but off in that time period but stay away from spots that might be better later. Hunting pressure is one factor that can make a spot better early season than later in the year.

I hunt very sparingly in the first two weeks of October because as I mentioned earlier I admittedly have struggled to find many high odds early October setups, and also I love hunting the last two weeks of October which still has relatively low hunting pressure around here. I also just don't have a lot of time to hunt period. If I get three hunts in the space of a week that is a lot. Keep in mind that's just my strategy to date based on my situation, we all have to deal with different combinations of time available/deer available/terrain/hunting pressure/etc.
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Re: outside of the pre-rut/rut tactics

Unread postby Lockdown » Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:15 am

Great thread.

Divergent you mentioned there are good deer numbers a ways South of you. How often are you able to go that far to hunt?

The reason I ask is if I had the option to hunt 10 times close to home on where the hunting is mediocre, or 3 times at my best properties that are a ways from home, I would pick my best properties. I know 2 hrs is a crazy long drive. Not sure if you're in a position to get multiple hunts out of one trip, but it's something to think about.

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