When to pass a buck, and when to remove his genetics from th

[whitetailassasin]

I was recently having a discussion with a few gentleman hunters that I saw in the parking lot a few days ago and the topic of when to pass on a deer in hopes he will bloom into a shooter and when to take them out of the herd to try and stop his genetics from the herd. I had read a study on spike bucks that said that in years 6.5-7.5 they will actually surpass bucks that have bigger racks as 1.5 olds, that they are slow developers. I have run cameras in the past and I have saw spikes stay spikes, and I have also saw them grow slightly larger racks, but still not the ones most of us are looking for. Now granted here in Michigan, deer have a hard time teaching 3.5-4.5, let alone 6.5-7.5 because of pressure and the rules that allow hunters to tag any sized buck with there first tag. The one gentlemen was explaining how he was upset at another hunter in the area he hunts for shooting a spike buck, but he didn't tell the successful hunter this he was just giving his side. I gave him my opinion, and this is what I said to him. Because of what I've saw with my own eyes, as well as trail camera photos, the spike buck to me is the one deer that I never have a problem with a guy shooting for his any buck tag, because the likelihood as well as the time it takes for that deer to make it to see if he will develop is very rare and almost impossible(almost not a fact). That it's the basket rack 1.5 olds that kind of bother me seeing taken from areas I hunt because that deer has already shown the potential to be something in the next few years to come. What do some of you guys think about this? And also anyone who has trail came knowledge or insight as to if the study and what I've seen is an untruth or there is evidence to show its worth passing those spikes up. I know studies aren't always consistent with what we see in the woods because they can be controlled etc. But I'd like to hear some opinions and also some facts guys have acquired over years of experience on this subject.

[ Post made via iPhone ]

[Bucky]

U can't tell a bucks potential until 3 regardless of what 1st rack shows

[ Post made via Android ]

[matt1336]

There are lots of variables....imo too many to consider when attempting improve your deer genetic pool.
If I'd had to guess- I'd think that the small bodied spike buck could be the safest bet to assume that he's not going to amount to whole lot of trophy potential.

[ Post made via iPhone ]

[cbay]

The heaviest 3 year old we have shot had a puny rack the previous year. Very small compared to the other 2 year olds we see. I figured his body / bones must have been growing so much it caused his rack to suffer.

[SamPotter]

Spikes can and do grow into nice bucks with maturity. There was a study that Kroll did that showed a negligible difference between spikes and branch antlered yearlings once they hit 4-5 years old. Basically, any buck that makes it to that age is going to be a wall hanger. Some will deserve a shoulder mount and some a skull mount, but you will want to hang them on your wall.

The "once a spike, always a spike" is 100% false. The only way to ensure that urban myth is to kill the spike when he's still a spike. I've only seen a few pictures of mature spike bucks. They have spikes that are 20"+ long and 4"+ bases. Those are extremely rare and I would love to have one for my wall, but it is more likely that I will shoot a B+C buck than a mature spike.
Here are 2 that I found:




But here is another photo I found showing the antler growth a buck that was once a spike:



I've found it extremely difficult to take a trail cam photo of a spike yearling and then recognize him the following year unless there is some very distinguishing characteristic about the buck like a double throat patch, etc. Once they hit 2-3 years old, then it becomes easier to see recognizable antler characteristics from year to year. My guess is that someone gets a spike on their trail camera and a spike the following year, they have 2 different spike bucks.

"Culling" a buck is a farce unless you are behind a fence. There is zero way to control the genetics in a large population. Don't forget that half the genetics come from the doe too.

Another thing to consider is why a buck is a spike in the first place. Sure, genetics is a factor, but nutrition and time of birth play a large role. I've seen at least one study that showed that buck fawns born early in the spring (April-May) were more likely to have branched antlers the following year than buck fawns born later in the spring.

Michigan surely seems to be a tough state to kill a mature buck in, but guys are doing it. One thing is for sure, you can't wrap your tag around a mature buck's rack if it's already on a spike's.

[headgear]

Trying to manipulate genetics on public seems beyond impossible, now hoping a buck with potential reaches maturity is somewhat possible but often still out of your control, you almost need some luck. There is really no way to determine what they will grow into, plenty of other factors besides genes to wonder about too. Heck even on a large chunk of private land you are just guessing, other bucks could be breeding your does during the rut and the mothers genes also play a role and no one knows what she is carrying, it all kind of seems like a waist of time to me but that is just IMO.

Other quick thoughts on this, just because a buck is a booner doesn't mean his kids will be. Plenty of pro athletes out there have kids who find other careers, probably most of them. You might also have a mature buck with an average rack that could be carrying the right genes somewhere in there that are mixed with the right doe to grow a monster. It's just impossible to know.

[Southern Man]

Who's to say what genetics are least desireable? I like those twisted out of the ordinary racks. Actually I would prefer to shoot something very non-typical than a typical. I have also watched some of those small "weak" racked youngens turn out to be pretty nice deer.

I haven't ever seen a spike stay a spike. In my opinion, you can't tell what a buck's headgear will be from looking at his first set of horns.

[stash59]

Many smaller antlered, small forks and spikes, small bodied "1.5 YO" bucks. Are actually only 1 year and 2 months to 1 year and 3 months old. Coming from late bred does. Especially from doe fawns that are 7 to 8 months old when bred. Then successfully raised to reach there 1st fall as an antlered buck. With 2 to 3 months less to grow there naturally going to be smaller. Even at 2.5 they haven't caught up yet.

The fact that these young does reach sexual maturity may point to superior genetics. Which may carry over to the genes they pass onto their antlered offspring. They also may have been bred by a buck with better genetics. Plus anywhere the winters are generally mild. Which includes the southern 2/3's of Michigan. These young does have a high rate of breeding and successful fawn raising. Especially in areas of high agriculture. A reason why some areas have constant overpopulation problems despite high deer kills.

An area I lived and hunted in the northern part of south central Wi., Had 60% of the doe fawn crop of the year successfully being bred and raising their fawns to be alive at "1.5" YO. This area still has high deer numbers. Plus unlike the rest of the does. Which have a buck fawn/doe fawn ratio of about 51% -49%. These young does have a ratio of 60% -40% buck/doe.

So like pointed out you can't tell always with 1.5 or 2.5 year old bucks their full genetic potential.

All the above info came from the local deer biologist from this area. Plus I read some articles from other studies colaborating this.

Now your area may have poor genetics in general. But shooting 1.5 year old spikes isn't going to fix it. A 6 point early born buck. 1 year 8 months old. May actually have inferior genetics. It all goes much deeper than this with wild herds.

[Stanley]

It is next to impossible to tell what a buck will do from one year to the next. I have seen them go up, go down, stay the same. I had a 5.5 year old buck on my list for this year, or thought I did. Last year he was a 10 point with 4 stickers. This year he is an 8 point with 2 stickers.

I have a great history of the buck and he is way less this year at 6.5 than he has been for the past 4 years. So you just never know. The neighbor on one of the properties I hunt killed a dandy 8 point. He said he thought he was doing a service to the area by killing a big 8 instead of a big 10. What is to say the buck won't be a 10 next year?

[dan]

The show we are doing right now, should air in a week or so has me shooting a "cull buck" on Andraes farm... It was a mature 8 point he did not want breeding... And, I guess when you have all the bucks you want to choose from, you want them to grow as big as possible, but really, deep down in me, I say throw the score books away... They all look cool and have unique headgear when they mature... Instead of using "genetics" as an excuse to kill a smaller buck and still seem like a trophy hunter to your friends, let them all grow up, and be happy with what they grow.

[whitetailassasin]

The show we are doing right now, should air in a week or so has me shooting a "cull buck" on Andraes farm... It was a mature 8 point he did not want breeding... And, I guess when you have all the bucks you want to choose from, you want them to grow as big as possible, but really, deep down in me, I say throw the score books away... They all look cool and have unique headgear when they mature... Instead of using "genetics" as an excuse to kill a smaller buck and still seem like a trophy hunter to your friends, let them all grow up, and be happy with what they grow.

Respect the heck out of you as a hunter and your ethics, but I think you may have misread the post. I nor did anyone in my topic referenced shooting a spike, I said it doesn't bother me if someone in the area does because the potential of them making it to maturity is slim, as referenced 4.5-5.5 and older. I don't think I was speaking about giving an excuse to shoot a younger buck but still look like a trophy hunter to those "friends" around you. I've shot my fair share of younger bucks in my early days, but 8-9 years ago I started shooting age structure regardless of rack size. Not sure why you threw out that reference, but I definitely took that as a shot at me specifically. I just said it doesn't bother me when someone else shots a spike, as much as a basket racked buck that clearly has potential to blossom. If I pull the trigger on a buck regardless of age im happy with him. Maybe you could clarify that statement for me and what you specifically meant by it?

[ Post made via iPhone ]

[whitetailassasin]

U can't tell a bucks potential until 3 regardless of what 1st rack shows

[ Post made via Android ]

I agree with this totally. Have you noticed throughout your cam pics any distinction in bucks that reach 3.5 that aren't carrying the racks you may be looking for in a mature deer?

[ Post made via iPhone ]

[whitetailassasin]

Spikes can and do grow into nice bucks with maturity. There was a study that Kroll did that showed a negligible difference between spikes and branch antlered yearlings once they hit 4-5 years old. Basically, any buck that makes it to that age is going to be a wall hanger. Some will deserve a shoulder mount and some a skull mount, but you will want to hang them on your wall.

The "once a spike, always a spike" is 100% false. The only way to ensure that urban myth is to kill the spike when he's still a spike. I've only seen a few pictures of mature spike bucks. They have spikes that are 20"+ long and 4"+ bases. Those are extremely rare and I would love to have one for my wall, but it is more likely that I will shoot a B+C buck than a mature spike.
Here are 2 that I found:




But here is another photo I found showing the antler growth a buck that was once a spike:



I've found it extremely difficult to take a trail cam photo of a spike yearling and then recognize him the following year unless there is some very distinguishing characteristic about the buck like a double throat patch, etc. Once they hit 2-3 years old, then it becomes easier to see recognizable antler characteristics from year to year. My guess is that someone gets a spike on their trail camera and a spike the following year, they have 2 different spike bucks.

"Culling" a buck is a farce unless you are behind a fence. There is zero way to control the genetics in a large population. Don't forget that half the genetics come from the doe too.

Another thing to consider is why a buck is a spike in the first place. Sure, genetics is a factor, but nutrition and time of birth play a large role. I've seen at least one study that showed that buck fawns born early in the spring (April-May) were more likely to have branched antlers the following year than buck fawns born later in the spring.

Michigan surely seems to be a tough state to kill a mature buck in, but guys are doing it. One thing is for sure, you can't wrap your tag around a mature buck's rack if it's already on a spike's.

Those spikes are awesome!! I appeciate the time and opinions of everyone weighing in on this topic, I personally have no real clue other than the limited ones I've saw and how they have progressed. I was just wondering because maybe my viewpoint is inaccurate and incorrect.

[ Post made via iPhone ]

[Bucky]

U can't tell a bucks potential until 3 regardless of what 1st rack shows

[ Post made via Android ]

I agree with this totally. Have you noticed throughout your cam pics any distinction in bucks that reach 3.5 that aren't carrying the racks you may be looking for in a mature deer?

[ Post made via iPhone ]

Lots!!!!

The majority of mature bucks.... end up at 140" (and I'm talking 4-7yr olds)

Very few ever reach 170"s gross even at maturity... it is a belled shaped curve and that 170" plus is out there at the end

[Stanley]

U can't tell a bucks potential until 3 regardless of what 1st rack shows

[ Post made via Android ]

I actually think potential may not be the proper terminology. An 11 point buck that is 2.5 years old and scores close to 150 has the potential that you can see. I also like to see 2.5 year olds that are 10s and score 140. Lots of visible potential. I do see these type of example bucks. Now a little basket 8 that is 1.5 year old tough to distinguish potential.