My state does have antler restrictions. My opinion is that they do not manage for trophy whitetails because yearlings with the potential to be trophies are shot as yearlings because they would normally have 4 points to a side. I will say the average size of bucks has increased, but trophies have not. As far as the statistics I think the number of record class deer was higher a year or two after the restrictions then went back to normal. That was because when the restrictions were started there were a lot of young bucks in my opinion and it helped get a lot of those deer through. With the combination of increased doe harvesting the young buck population has decreased so theres not as many young bucks to begin with as there were at the start of the restrictions. Now, the restrictions are being selective against the older and good gened bucks, not the way nature intended. Oh, unless they are the genetically inferrior bucks as Dan mentioned. And believe me that does happen here too. No difference, if anything less potential at the already very small potential for getting a booner in PA.
That being said I do not want to bash the restrictions cause it does allow for more yearlings to make it through. After you get past yearlings though, the 2.5s and up have a much less greater chance of making it. I've always loved hunting this state and always will with or without antler restrictions but I would definitely not make it a destination state if I were an out of stater.
The best way I've seen to manage for trophy deer as far as any agency could control is to make shotgun only and archery only areas. There is a world of difference in average buck size comparing a county thats shotgun only to one that is rifle with the same management restrictions.
16 is the cut of age for the restrictions here and I think theres nothing wrong with that. I think someone who is 16 or older can handle not being able to shoot anything, its not like they're a little kid anymore. I was in those shoes before and after I turned 16, but then again I wasn't the average kid whose was on the fence about hunting.
Antler restrictions...opinions wanted...
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Re: Antler restrictions...opinions wanted...
yearlings with the potential to be trophies are shot as yearlings because they would normally have 4 points to a side.
I agree... The bucks that seem to have the best genetics are being killed before they can grow, leaving the small spikers and such to do the breeding and growing.
Andrae had a buck on his farm a few years ago that made Boone & Crockett as a 2 1/2 year old... He was protecting it to see how big it would mature. I did not see it as a 1 1/2, but I could only imagine that it had at least 10 points. Those are the ones that should be protected at 1 1/2... Not the forks and spikes.
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Re: Antler restrictions...opinions wanted...
dan wrote:
Andrae had a buck on his farm a few years ago that made Boone & Crockett as a 2 1/2 year old... He was protecting it to see how big it would mature. I did not see it as a 1 1/2, but I could only imagine that it had at least 10 points. Those are the ones that should be protected at 1 1/2... Not the forks and spikes.
Boone & Crockett at 2 1/2 years old!! Wow, that is amazing.
The buck I shot last year scored 126" at 2 1/2 years old and I thought that was really unusual. After knowing his age I kinda wish I would have passed on him but that is really hard to do on public land. Around here I see some pretty nice 1 1/2 year old deer taken with 8 points+ and agree that these are the ones that need to be protected since they will become super nice bucks in the next few years.
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Re: Antler restrictions...opinions wanted...
dan wrote:yearlings with the potential to be trophies are shot as yearlings because they would normally have 4 points to a side.
I agree... The bucks that seem to have the best genetics are being killed before they can grow, leaving the small spikers and such to do the breeding and growing.
Andrae had a buck on his farm a few years ago that made Boone & Crockett as a 2 1/2 year old... He was protecting it to see how big it would mature. I did not see it as a 1 1/2, but I could only imagine that it had at least 10 points. Those are the ones that should be protected at 1 1/2... Not the forks and spikes.
Has anyone considered that these bucks would most likely be shot anyway. Everything I have read also says that spikes are just as likely to become true trophies if given time. Heck, in most places ( where trophy production is the goal) mainframe 8's are considered cull deer.
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Re: Antler restrictions...opinions wanted...
I know most of you are excellent outdoorsman and true lovers of nature, but this is something I would like to point out anyway about all State management for wildlife. This is where the rubber really meets the road.
It is obvious to me that most states wildlife management agencies are clueless especially concerning the management goals of the people who own and or use the properties.
This is where we have a tremendous responsibility and opportunity to control the outcome more than in any other branch of government. We are the ones with the guns and bows. We are the ones with sons and daughters and nieces and nephews and little neighbor kids who have no one, to teach and instill good hunting ethics, practice and management. We have the opportunity to bring up a new generation of outdoor men and women. Every trigger pulled and every arrow released is a decision. Don't make everything about the antlers, but teach them good management practices and show them and let them experience the rewards of such practices. If a giant buck comes out, let the kid blast it. Put them on does and let them harvest them and praise them for it. I never shot a buck until I had been hunting about 4 years, but was super happy shooting a doe. We have the chance to break the "if it's brown it's down mentality" while teaching them at the same time respect for the animal, gratefulness for the harvest, good hunting practices, and good management. It is important in every aspect to involve young ones as much as possible. Most of us here grew up in a time when you were lucky to see a deer. When I was young you couldn't shoot does, and later on only by drawing a special tag. I was brought up to shoot any deer, there was no such thing as management and Big Bucks were more rare than a diamond. The stage is set, most states now have balanced enough herds to manage either sex as is deemed necessary and it is the person with the finger on the trigger more than the state who has power. Of course I am not suggesting anyone harvest deer outside of the law and in some areas where the populations have been horrible managed such as WI so it sounds from this forum, it will take a good amount of time for any significant changes to take affect. It all depends on the things we teach the kids.
It is obvious to me that most states wildlife management agencies are clueless especially concerning the management goals of the people who own and or use the properties.
This is where we have a tremendous responsibility and opportunity to control the outcome more than in any other branch of government. We are the ones with the guns and bows. We are the ones with sons and daughters and nieces and nephews and little neighbor kids who have no one, to teach and instill good hunting ethics, practice and management. We have the opportunity to bring up a new generation of outdoor men and women. Every trigger pulled and every arrow released is a decision. Don't make everything about the antlers, but teach them good management practices and show them and let them experience the rewards of such practices. If a giant buck comes out, let the kid blast it. Put them on does and let them harvest them and praise them for it. I never shot a buck until I had been hunting about 4 years, but was super happy shooting a doe. We have the chance to break the "if it's brown it's down mentality" while teaching them at the same time respect for the animal, gratefulness for the harvest, good hunting practices, and good management. It is important in every aspect to involve young ones as much as possible. Most of us here grew up in a time when you were lucky to see a deer. When I was young you couldn't shoot does, and later on only by drawing a special tag. I was brought up to shoot any deer, there was no such thing as management and Big Bucks were more rare than a diamond. The stage is set, most states now have balanced enough herds to manage either sex as is deemed necessary and it is the person with the finger on the trigger more than the state who has power. Of course I am not suggesting anyone harvest deer outside of the law and in some areas where the populations have been horrible managed such as WI so it sounds from this forum, it will take a good amount of time for any significant changes to take affect. It all depends on the things we teach the kids.
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Re: Antler restrictions...opinions wanted...
dan wrote:One thing that I have seen work well is a tactic used by the Illinois DNR
On a public parcel I hunted a few years ago...
In order to hunt the public property you had to meet with a DNR representative who went over the rules and explained what they were trying to manage the property for...
He showed me sheds that were picked up on the property and talked about the bucks age class and how to judge age class.
He said it is legal to shoot any deer you see, but we gave you a doe tag along with your choice tag. If your after meat please shoot a doe and let the bucks grow up. He said if a kid or new hunter wants to take a smaller deer, go ahead, but if you have some experience hunting please don't kill the immature bucks.
If you shot a deer, you would have to take it back to that same guy to register it for that property, and it would be pretty embarrassing if it was a little guy.
Needless to say, the property was loaded with deer and some big ones too. I only hunted a weekend and I almost got a Booner.
I like this approach... too bad it couldn't be applied to my neighbors
I also agree that teaching youth how to respect and judge animals on the hoof is a great thing.
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Re: Antler restrictions...opinions wanted...
Missouri has some interesting things going on right now with their conservation department. They have bow only zones, they have combination bow and muzzleloader only zones, and they have bow and rifle zones on public lands. MO also has conservationist that manage specific plots of land and limit the hunting if over kill/disease/climate causes too much of an annual drop in animals. I would love to see some of these same tactics here in WI. Not every deer will have even a 130" antlers at 4-5 y.o. but it makes hunting a lot more fun when you have a variety of age classes running around. I think it would be nice to have a few bow only zones in WI. I can tell you from first hand experiences when whitetails can get to 4-5 years of age and have the right genetic potential - we can grow some of the biggest whitetails in the country.
I guess what I'm saying with the above is not to have restrictions per say, but to make it more difficult to kill bucks therefore giving them a greater chance to get to 2-3-4+
I guess what I'm saying with the above is not to have restrictions per say, but to make it more difficult to kill bucks therefore giving them a greater chance to get to 2-3-4+
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Re: Antler restrictions...opinions wanted...
I would not like antler restrictions. Here in Indiana we went to a one buck rule several years back. I think it has helped balance the herd a bit and Ive seen more bucks and bigger bucks. We still have a very long gun season and muzzleloader season which will be changing next year.
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Re: Antler restrictions...opinions wanted...
Definitely in favor of the season moving to the end of November!
So MN is all for protecting deer while Wisconsin is a Cowboy state when it comes to gunnin' deer.
No offense MN, but you already beat us in the numbers game for trophy musky.. I'd like to stay number 1 for numbers of trophy deer! Looks like that may turn soon, too.
So MN is all for protecting deer while Wisconsin is a Cowboy state when it comes to gunnin' deer.
No offense MN, but you already beat us in the numbers game for trophy musky.. I'd like to stay number 1 for numbers of trophy deer! Looks like that may turn soon, too.
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Re: Antler restrictions...opinions wanted...
Minnesota has a long ways to go to be a good buck state again. The antler restrictions are only In one small area In the SE part of the state. Prior to these restrictions SE Mn was already one of the better parts of the state for big bucks.No offense MN, but you already beat us in the numbers game for trophy musky.. I'd like to stay number 1 for numbers of trophy deer! Looks like that may turn soon, too.
In my area It's tough. The Mn DNR has their head so far up someones It's down right pathetic. Mn cares about deer numbers but doesn't give a rats on how balanced of a herd they have. The doe to buck ratio Is so out of wack It's pathetic. We've got more deer around here then I've saw In years. Just last year our DNR didn't give any doe permits out to the zone 7 miles south of me. Not even bowhunters could shoot a doe. I don't think that's ever happened here before. I gaurantee you their deer herd last year was just as big If not bigger then ours prior to the deer season last year. What did not shooting doe's last year do? I'd bet allot more 1.5 year old bucks and many more other bucks were shot during the gun season. Nice going Mn DNR being our herd was already out of wack. Believe me, Mn has It's problems too!!
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Re: Antler restrictions...opinions wanted...
Alot of the counties here (no units here, each county is it's own unit) have antler restrictions here. The main one being 13 inch inside spread. I have seen (with my eyes) and pics and stories from others here, that, some bucks will grow to a ripe old age and never get outside the ear tips. They grow upwards. Some magnificent racks too, and remain untouchable for their entire life. They breed and they pass on that gene, unles momma has a more dominant gene that expresses itself in the offspring. Research has shown that many spikes do not grow their rack til they are 3 yrs old and when they do they explode. But many here get killed before they get a chance. I wonder how many booners die before 3 because for whatever reason (probably genetics and poor protein nutrition or metabolism), that we will never know unless DNA testing was done and tremendous record keeping as well. I have seeen alot of what appears to be respectable bucks (8's 10's) to me, to be on a cull list. Mostly due to age (5 and over) and little change/growth in rack from age 4-5. However, most of these are on highly managed ranches and most are high fenced. So, I guess if they pay big bucks to have big bucks, and people willing to pay their prices, they would feel the need to cull what seems like a beautiful buck we would let grow some more. However, not all are high fenced where I see this happen. South Texas and Mexico is very well know for it's monster bucks and low/no fences. Deer here are not considered mature til 5 and older. That is the line in the sand for them. If they aren't at least 140-150 by then, out they go!!!! Is that good or bad, I don't know yet. I'm still learning the nuances of this state.
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