Pope and Young ??

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Spysar
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Re: Pope and Young ??

Unread postby Spysar » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:11 pm

I think someone like James is just plain unlucky on getting the deer with the genes for good racks. The age class of bucks he has killed should be sporting some 125" racks.

I guess if your not killing them, you have to ask yourself why. And change something. Might be you, might be the land your on. Might be chit luck.


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Stanley
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Re: Pope and Young ??

Unread postby Stanley » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:46 pm

Arrowbender wrote:@Stanley:
I am really interested in the answers to the questions I asked Stan?
I think it will interest most.
Year of first official Poper and how many years to get it?
Feel free to include state harvested and that of residence.
Thanks Stan

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The first buck I entered was in 1989. I killed a few before that grossed over but had broken points, 9 points, or a non typical point. Stuff like that. I started hunting in 1963 so it was a good many years to get one in the books. Also remember the first 10 years I had absolutely no chance. The next 10 years was 1% chance. There were no deer at that time. I started to see some deer in the early 70s but it was still one deer sighting every 2 weeks. I killed my first buck in Missouri in 1972. So I was 39 years old when I put the first one in the books. The young guys are so much farther ahead of that now days. Anyway that is enough about me.
You can fool some of the bucks, all of the time, and fool all of the bucks, some of the time, however you certainly can't fool all of the bucks, all of the time.
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James
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Re: Pope and Young ??

Unread postby James » Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:05 pm

Stanley wrote:
Arrowbender wrote:@Stanley:
I am really interested in the answers to the questions I asked Stan?
I think it will interest most.
Year of first official Poper and how many years to get it?
Feel free to include state harvested and that of residence.
Thanks Stan

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The first buck I entered was in 1989. I killed a few before that grossed over but had broken points, 9 points, or a non typical point. Stuff like that. I started hunting in 1963 so it was a good many years to get one in the books. Also remember the first 10 years I had absolutely no chance. The next 10 years was 1% chance. There were no deer at that time. I started to see some deer in the early 70s but it was still one deer sighting every 2 weeks. I killed my first buck in Missouri in 1972. So I was 39 years old when I put the first one in the books. The young guys are so much farther ahead of that now days. Anyway that is enough about me.


Not to make you feel old Stan, but rather just to age myself. I started hunting the year you put one in the books. I began Bowhunting in '93 but I was just happy to fling arrows and see deer. It wasn't until I put a really good buck down in 2002 when I got the itch for big deer.

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James
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Re: Pope and Young ??

Unread postby James » Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:06 pm

Spysar wrote:I think someone like James is just plain unlucky on getting the deer with the genes for good racks. The age class of bucks he has killed should be sporting some 125" racks.

I guess if your not killing them, you have to ask yourself why. And change something. Might be you, might be the land your on. Might be chit luck.


Yup. Arrowbender killed a 160" off our farm that aged the same as the 130" I killed that year, so I don't think area + genes is the issue. I'm going with very very poor luck! lolol
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Re: Pope and Young ??

Unread postby Jackson Marsh » Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:26 pm

James wrote:
Spysar wrote:I think someone like James is just plain unlucky on getting the deer with the genes for good racks. The age class of bucks he has killed should be sporting some 125" racks.

I guess if your not killing them, you have to ask yourself why. And change something. Might be you, might be the land your on. Might be chit luck.


Yup. Arrowbender killed a 160" off our farm that aged the same as the 130" I killed that year, so I don't think area + genes is the issue. I'm going with very very poor luck! lolol



Wow ! That is bum luck.

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Re: Pope and Young ??

Unread postby Master Chief » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:45 pm

Killing a higher antler quality animal takes it to the step beyond killing just any mature buck. It's the same as killing mature bucks consistantly.. To do it requires more than luck. Usually the answer if you want to kill that highest percentile of antler quality is determination and patience. You're only going to kill a 160 by luck if you are burning your tags on every buck you see just because it is mature. Some bucks grow trophy antlers-some don't. If you want to kill mature bucks, you have to target specifically mature bucks. If you want to kill truly big bucks, you are going to have to target the ones that have truly big antlers (whatever you define that as)

Saying you are unlucky at killing big antlered bucks because the deer you shoot are low end mature deer is the same as saying you are unlucky when it comes to shooting mature bucks because you've been burning your tags/time on yearlings and two year olds.

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Re: Pope and Young ??

Unread postby Tennhunter3 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:18 pm

I never submitted mine.
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Re: Pope and Young ??

Unread postby Stanley » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:42 pm

James wrote:
Stanley wrote:
Arrowbender wrote:@Stanley:
I am really interested in the answers to the questions I asked Stan?
I think it will interest most.
Year of first official Poper and how many years to get it?
Feel free to include state harvested and that of residence.
Thanks Stan

[ Post made via iPhone ] Image


The first buck I entered was in 1989. I killed a few before that grossed over but had broken points, 9 points, or a non typical point. Stuff like that. I started hunting in 1963 so it was a good many years to get one in the books. Also remember the first 10 years I had absolutely no chance. The next 10 years was 1% chance. There were no deer at that time. I started to see some deer in the early 70s but it was still one deer sighting every 2 weeks. I killed my first buck in Missouri in 1972. So I was 39 years old when I put the first one in the books. The young guys are so much farther ahead of that now days. Anyway that is enough about me.


Not to make you feel old Stan, but rather just to age myself. I started hunting the year you put one in the books. I began Bowhunting in '93 but I was just happy to fling arrows and see deer. It wasn't until I put a really good buck down in 2002 when I got the itch for big deer.

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20 years from now you will have many P&Y bucks to your credit. Once you break the jinx you'll be hanging them on a regular basis. I would bet a great sum of money on it.
You can fool some of the bucks, all of the time, and fool all of the bucks, some of the time, however you certainly can't fool all of the bucks, all of the time.
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Re: Pope and Young ??

Unread postby Stanley » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:56 pm

Master Chief wrote:Killing a higher antler quality animal takes it to the step beyond killing just any mature buck. It's the same as killing mature bucks consistantly.. To do it requires more than luck. Usually the answer if you want to kill that highest percentile of antler quality is determination and patience. You're only going to kill a 160 by luck if you are burning your tags on every buck you see just because it is mature. Some bucks grow trophy antlers-some don't. If you want to kill mature bucks, you have to target specifically mature bucks. If you want to kill truly big bucks, you are going to have to target the ones that have truly big antlers (whatever you define that as)

Saying you are unlucky at killing big antlered bucks because the deer you shoot are low end mature deer is the same as saying you are unlucky when it comes to shooting mature bucks because you've been burning your tags/time on yearlings and two year olds.

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This is so profound and absolutely correct. "You hang what you kill". I also think it can sometimes be detrimental to hunt with a partner. Albeit I would hunt with Arrowbender, any day of the week. I would also hunt with you, James any day of the week.

The guy you hunt with kills a good one and you feel the pressure of having to duplicate or parallel his success. I am positive this happened to the guy that was hunting the same property I was hunting back in the day. This is truly a great topic for discussion.
You can fool some of the bucks, all of the time, and fool all of the bucks, some of the time, however you certainly can't fool all of the bucks, all of the time.
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Re: Pope and Young ??

Unread postby PK_ » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:03 pm

Stanley wrote:
PalmettoKid wrote:I am going to lean… not so easy…

It's not 'easy' for me to get anywhere where deer that caliber are 'common'. It is literally halfway across the country.

It is like me telling someone in the Midwest that it is 'easy' to go to the beach...


Florida is one of the the 2 states I have never been to. If I really wanted to go to Florida it would be easy to do so. No you probably can't kill a P&Y buck in Florida that would not be easy. You would need to put yourself in a position where the opportunity would make it it easy. I did not say it would cheap, I said it would be easy. [glow=red]Thousands of guys do it every year[/glow]. :think:


And millions don't.

Killing big deer with big antlers for most hunters is either difficult or expensive.

Yes it is just as easy for you to come to Florida as it is for me to come to Iowa, but that is not what I said. I said it is easy to go to the beach. For me to go to the beach, I just drive a mile down the road. You need to spend hours or days traveling. So for me to say it is easy to go to the beach, sure, it is easy for me, very easy. It would be easy for me to go to the beach right now, I could be there in less than 5 minutes, how about you? All the money in the world couldn't get your toes in the sand in the next 30 minutes. So, clearly, it is not as easy for you to go to the beach as it is for me…

So my point is that you living in Iowa and saying it is easy to kill a P&Y deer is like me living in Florida and saying it is easy to go to the beach. It would take you a considerable amount more time/effort/resources to go to the beach than it would for me and it would take me a considerable amount more time/effort/resource to kill a P&Y than you.

Perhaps if I lived in Iowa I would think it was easy to kill a P&Y buck. But I do not and I do not. :snooty:

I will also say, it is much easier to not kill a P&Y than it is to kill a P&Y :lol:

Spysar wrote:Don't worry Stan, I hear what your saying. I agree with Stan. I think part of the reason guys like Stan get it done, is they learned in the woods, trial and error. Not sitting on a keyboard. It's called woodsmanship, and lots of guys think they can skip that and go right to the big bucks...

In todays world it has never been easier.

If this dumb hillbilly from NY can go out and get them how hard can it be?? :lol: :lol: :lol:


So you would classify the time and effort you put in to consistently kill that caliber deer as easy?

Do you think any average hunter with similar budget and time would have similar success?

I just have to wonder, if it is indeed easy, why are so few hunters doing it?
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Re: Pope and Young ??

Unread postby Stanley » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:30 pm

PalmettoKid wrote:
Stanley wrote:
PalmettoKid wrote:I am going to lean… not so easy…

It's not 'easy' for me to get anywhere where deer that caliber are 'common'. It is literally halfway across the country.

It is like me telling someone in the Midwest that it is 'easy' to go to the beach...


Florida is one of the the 2 states I have never been to. If I really wanted to go to Florida it would be easy to do so. No you probably can't kill a P&Y buck in Florida that would not be easy. You would need to put yourself in a position where the opportunity would make it it easy. I did not say it would cheap, I said it would be easy. [glow=red]Thousands of guys do it every year[/glow]. :think:


And millions don't.

Killing big deer with big antlers for most hunters is either difficult or expensive.

Yes it is just as easy for you to come to Florida as it is for me to come to Iowa, but that is not what I said. I said it is easy to go to the beach. For me to go to the beach, I just drive a mile down the road. You need to spend hours or days traveling. So for me to say it is easy to go to the beach, sure, it is easy for me, very easy. It would be easy for me to go to the beach right now, I could be there in less than 5 minutes, how about you? All the money in the world couldn't get your toes in the sand in the next 30 minutes. So, clearly, it is not as easy for you to go to the beach as it is for me…

So my point is that you living in Iowa and saying it is easy to kill a P&Y deer is like me living in Florida and saying it is easy to go to the beach. It would take you a considerable amount more time/effort/resources to go to the beach than it would for me and it would take me a considerable amount more time/effort/resource to kill a P&Y than you.

Perhaps if I lived in Iowa I would think it was easy to kill a P&Y buck. But I do not and I do not. :snooty:

I will also say, it is much easier to not kill a P&Y than it is to kill a P&Y :lol:

Spysar wrote:Don't worry Stan, I hear what your saying. I agree with Stan. I think part of the reason guys like Stan get it done, is they learned in the woods, trial and error. Not sitting on a keyboard. It's called woodsmanship, and lots of guys think they can skip that and go right to the big bucks...

In todays world it has never been easier.

If this dumb hillbilly from NY can go out and get them how hard can it be?? :lol: :lol: :lol:


So you would classify the time and effort you put in to consistently kill that caliber deer as easy?

Do you think any average hunter with similar budget and time would have similar success?

I just have to wonder, if it is indeed easy, why are so few hunters doing it?


I think the big difference in the millions that don't, they really don't want to. The majority of hunters are brown and downers (part of the millions). The difference being, wanting to and hoping to. This is a huge difference. Take yourself for example you may have some desire to kill a P&Y buck but living in Florida and not wanting to expand to other areas is not what I consider really wanting to kill a P&Y buck. So you would be one of the millions that don't.

Not knocking you or disrespecting you, just saying. If my goal was to kill an alligator with a bow I surely couldn't do it in Wisconsin. I would get hooked up in a state that had gators and I would kill one with a bow. There are millions of guys like myself that would like to kill a gator with a bow, but those that do it, truly want to.
You can fool some of the bucks, all of the time, and fool all of the bucks, some of the time, however you certainly can't fool all of the bucks, all of the time.
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Re: Pope and Young ??

Unread postby iowa whitetail » Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:34 am

I agree with Stan, it's all about setting yourself up for success. That could mean going to a diff state, buying land and managing it, or finding diff spots to hunt around your area, or just simply try to become a better hunter. I think thear is a time when it is tough then after you figure a way to do it it becomes very easy.

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Re: Pope and Young ??

Unread postby James » Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 am

Master Chief wrote:Killing a higher antler quality animal takes it to the step beyond killing just any mature buck. It's the same as killing mature bucks consistantly.. To do it requires more than luck. Usually the answer if you want to kill that highest percentile of antler quality is determination and patience. You're only going to kill a 160 by luck if you are burning your tags on every buck you see just because it is mature. Some bucks grow trophy antlers-some don't. If you want to kill mature bucks, you have to target specifically mature bucks. If you want to kill truly big bucks, you are going to have to target the ones that have truly big antlers (whatever you define that as)

Saying you are unlucky at killing big antlered bucks because the deer you shoot are low end mature deer is the same as saying you are unlucky when it comes to shooting mature bucks because you've been burning your tags/time on yearlings and two year olds.

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You are correct although the point of my response to Spy was: I was trying to point out that genetics in my areas is not necessarily an issue I have to be concerned with.

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Re: Pope and Young ??

Unread postby Bucky » Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:23 am

This has been kinda been beat to death.... but to kill a P&Y you have to hunt where they exist #1.

#2 is you have to put in the time (I think some think they hunt hard, but in reality they do not. I hunted with SPY and he hunted all day, every day, even when the temps pushed in the mid 70s when we were hunting the rut in IL at Tall Tines (Nov 6-13 back in 2011). This was after killing multiple bucks in SD and NE which I'm sure he hunted all day every day in those states.

It was so hot I got a sun tan... and for those wondering... I took some of those afternoons off back at the camp! :lol:

#3 is you have to be able to pass up the decent looking 2.5yr olds... I think for those that have not shot a bunch of deer, this would be the hard part once you get in the right local! A 120"er when all you're used to seeing is basket racks is incredibly difficult to pass on... especially when they come in at 20 yards broadside. For the guys that have shot a bunch of 2.5yr olds, the 3.5yr-4.5yr old that goes 125-135" gross but does NOT net 125" is also an incredibly difficult buck to pass... but you HAVE to if your goal is to shoot one that nets 125".
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Re: Pope and Young ??

Unread postby cbigbear » Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:10 am

If killing a Poper is your number one priority in life then getting it done would be easy, but the difficult part is making that your number one life priority.


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