How many deer have you killed?

[dirt nap giver]

WOW! This is what I was looking for. As stated before, my research led to more questions. Many of the people that replied to the blog from the biologist in the links provided, seemed to be confused and without solid evidence.

I don't think deer can reason. If they could, then the deer I found must have ridden the short bus to the bait pile last winter. Given that here in SW Michigan hasn't had a severe winter such as last winter in quite some time, would explain why so many died as a result from eating the corn. I am still left with this question. Why are there many cases where dead deer are found with stomachs full of corn?

SB, your knowledge on this sounds quite extensive as with many others who obviously live in the northern part of our range. You stated that deer just poop out the corn that isn't digested. If that is the case, why are deer still dying with full stomachs of corn?

Just for gitts and shiggles, lets say one year I decide to travel north to hunt. Because I dont know much about the area(Never heard of cyber scouting) so I decide I want to lay out some bait in an attempt to fill a tag. My intentions would never be to kill more than I need for the freezer. If I am completely unaware of the risk of Acidosis, then the likelihood of me killing more than I need is quite higher given that there is a severe winter coming. On the other hand, if I am surfing around on The Beast and see this information, I pause for a minute and think, I might want to spend a little more time thinking about this. Given that I am only planning a trip for a week or so, I might want to take this into account before doing it.

I have found myself on many occasions asking "How would the person who tried to help the wildlife last winter feel if they knew that they had killed all those deer?" And my answer is always the same. Devastated! Just the gesture of "helping" the wildlife shows compassion. Yet, that person didn't have a clue.

Finding those deer last spring was a real eye opener for me. Although I love KILLING these animals, I do so first to feed myself, secondly to feed my passion. I am first a conservationist out of choice. With this (I feel) comes a responsibility to educate myself regarding whatever nature exposes to me, then share that knowledge with others who may be just as unaware as I was before this happened.

Great conversation everyone

[dirt nap giver]

What a great topic with some excellent, yet segmented information... although it is being blown all over the map with variables which create chaos and false presumptions based on the information presented.

Before anyone should ask "how many deer have you killed?" followed by throwing in a quote here and there from Mark, how about defining exactly what we mean. As Mark pointed out, the transition to primarily woody browse with the associated microbes that will break down this food source isn't exactly clear. I agree with him that variables such as stress created by the environment and weather, along with the loss of other food sources are likely reasons for this shift. That being said, as we speak there are many acorns that continue to be eaten throughout the north (except for areas with excessive depths of snow). Acorns do not have as high of a level of carbohydrate as corn but it is significant enough to continue to be a huge draw to deer. There is little doubt that the deer have evolved to utilize this big woods food source and they continue to do so. After opening many stomachs of deer in October/November/December I routinely find corn mixed with browse such as white cedar or red osier dogwood. My findings indicate they have not been stressed enough to eat corn exclusively when they remain in a fall, physiological digestive process. In my view, it is ludicrous to suggest that deer will not utilize, at least with some digestive efficiency, any type of carbohydrate at this time of the year. Again I feel the need to point out the exception of snowbelt areas and areas where no food sources containing carbohydrates exist...

So, when does the winter shift occur? In Michigan's Upper Peninsula, particularly in the Lake Superior snowbelt, it is assuredly underway. Yet here in the northern Lower Peninsula carbohydrate utilization continues, as it does in most years prior to the loss of the acorns. I belive our primary focus in this thread is to determine the damage done by feeding corn following these physiological changes in deer which puts them in the "winter mode," if you will.

But wait, there's more! In areas that contain little to no baiting all fall (wilderness areas) and that do not contain acorns or beechnuts, the deer will often gorge on corn piles and sugar beet piles. It is as though they cannot help themselves. Someone asked earlier if deer puke, and the answer is yes... all the time when bait piles are present. I have found literally hundreds of puke piles from deer over the years around bait put out by other hunters. Is this detrimental to deer when they gorge like this and suffer from vomiting and diarrhea and the associated dehydration? Of course it is. By the way, the deer that I find gorging on bait are typically yearlings and fawns from the prior spring, at least until winter becomes serious.

I vividly recall a button buck that I found gorging on someone's very large sugar beet pile in the northern Upper Peninsula. He was puking beets as he ran from me, but I couldn't resist and ran him down to give him a hard swat on the rear... I guess I thought I was teaching him to avoid bait when I probably only accomplished adding more stress to the poor little fellow... hopefully it was both. He had been gorging on beets and his abdomen was distended. My thought at the time was how vulnerable that deer was to predation.

To summarize, in my view there are very specific criteria which create a dangerous situation for deer when putting out corn piles. I believe someone asked if even a little bit of corn could kill them as though it would stop them up or blow up inside their digestive tract. They simply cannot digest it for nutritional value in those circumstances, they poop it out just fine most of the time.

btw I wrote my first paper on the anatomy and physiology of the whitetail deer digestive system at age ten (10).

I belive our primary focus in this thread is to determine the damage done by feeding corn following these physiological changes in deer which puts them in the "winter mode," if you will.
Precisely! As well as, when might this start. At least give it a thought before hand. Things can go south without knowing, unintentional of course. Life is to short not to learn things second hand.

Is this detrimental to deer when they gorge like this and suffer from vomiting and diarrhea and the associated dehydration?
This is a different disease than Acidosis is it not? Which leads to another point. If the primary reason for regulating/banning bait is CWD, other diseases deserve a place of thought as well don't they?

[JROD157]

Bridge,
Your response provided answers to a handful of questions in one pop. Some valuable insight. Shared knowledge like yours is a major reason this board is fantastic!

[Mark the Biologist]

A sudden increase or over-consumption of carbohydrates during the winter after that change has occurred can cause a number of issues with deer and other ruminants, including acidosis, diarrhea, and potentially death. The bacteria that digests carbohydrates multiply and produce lactic acid, which lowers the pH of the blood to a dangerous, acidic level. This is known as rumen acidosis.

In a situation where someone over fed the deer, would there be visible sign that the deer were sick? Diarrhea and such? Do Ruminants puke?

Ruminants do not vomit, but a sign of acidosis is diarrhea.

[Mark the Biologist]

What a great topic with some excellent, yet segmented information... although it is being blown all over the map with variables which create chaos and false presumptions based on the information presented.

Before anyone should ask "how many deer have you killed?" followed by throwing in a quote here and there from Mark, how about defining exactly what we mean. As Mark pointed out, the transition to primarily woody browse with the associated microbes that will break down this food source isn't exactly clear. I agree with him that variables such as stress created by the environment and weather, along with the loss of other food sources are likely reasons for this shift. That being said, as we speak there are many acorns that continue to be eaten throughout the north (except for areas with excessive depths of snow). Acorns do not have as high of a level of carbohydrate as corn but it is significant enough to continue to be a huge draw to deer. There is little doubt that the deer have evolved to utilize this big woods food source and they continue to do so. After opening many stomachs of deer in October/November/December I routinely find corn mixed with browse such as white cedar or red osier dogwood. My findings indicate they have not been stressed enough to eat corn exclusively when they remain in a fall, physiological digestive process. In my view, it is ludicrous to suggest that deer will not utilize, at least with some digestive efficiency, any type of carbohydrate at this time of the year. Again I feel the need to point out the exception of snowbelt areas and areas where no food sources containing carbohydrates exist...

So, when does the winter shift occur? In Michigan's Upper Peninsula, particularly in the Lake Superior snowbelt, it is assuredly underway. Yet here in the northern Lower Peninsula carbohydrate utilization continues, as it does in most years prior to the loss of the acorns. I belive our primary focus in this thread is to determine the damage done by feeding corn following these physiological changes in deer which puts them in the "winter mode," if you will.

But wait, there's more! In areas that contain little to no baiting all fall (wilderness areas) and that do not contain acorns or beechnuts, the deer will often gorge on corn piles and sugar beet piles. It is as though they cannot help themselves. Someone asked earlier if deer puke, and the answer is yes... all the time when bait piles are present. I have found literally hundreds of puke piles from deer over the years around bait put out by other hunters. Is this detrimental to deer when they gorge like this and suffer from vomiting and diarrhea and the associated dehydration? Of course it is. By the way, the deer that I find gorging on bait are typically yearlings and fawns from the prior spring, at least until winter becomes serious.

I vividly recall a button buck that I found gorging on someone's very large sugar beet pile in the northern Upper Peninsula. He was puking beets as he ran from me, but I couldn't resist and ran him down to give him a hard swat on the rear... I guess I thought I was teaching him to avoid bait when I probably only accomplished adding more stress to the poor little fellow... hopefully it was both. He had been gorging on beets and his abdomen was distended. My thought at the time was how vulnerable that deer was to predation.

To summarize, in my view there are very specific criteria which create a dangerous situation for deer when putting out corn piles. I believe someone asked if even a little bit of corn could kill them as though it would stop them up or blow up inside their digestive tract. They simply cannot digest it for nutritional value in those circumstances, they poop it out just fine most of the time.

btw I wrote my first paper on the anatomy and physiology of the whitetail deer digestive system at age ten (10).

I belive our primary focus in this thread is to determine the damage done by feeding corn following these physiological changes in deer which puts them in the "winter mode," if you will.
Precisely! As well as, when might this start. At least give it a thought before hand. Things can go south without knowing, unintentional of course. Life is to short not to learn things second hand.

Is this detrimental to deer when they gorge like this and suffer from vomiting and diarrhea and the associated dehydration?
This is a different disease than Acidosis is it not? Which leads to another point. If the primary reason for regulating/banning bait is CWD, other diseases deserve a place of thought as well don't they?

Absolutely, other diseases are the cause of baiting and feeding bans in other parts of the U.S. Bovine tuberculosis is the first one that comes to mind.

[Mark the Biologist]

Deer can somewhat regulate their diet and may at times understand if they are lacking certain nutrients, but only to a degree. Think about what is available different times of the year, and how it meets all wildlife's needs, not just deer. In the early spring, you get new, highly-nutritious green shoots for animals to rebound after the winter. In the late spring and summer, high-protein grasses and wildflowers (forbs) assist in gaining muscle mass (and antler mass for deer) to bulk up and get fit for mating. Fall comes and the protein content of grasses and forbs has diminished greatly, but high-carbohydrate food sources (grains and tree nuts) are now readily available. The carbs assist in building fat reserves to withstand winter. Once those carbohydrate food sources are covered in snow or depleted, fibrous woody browse is all that's left. Deer have evolved to be most efficient at extracting nutrients from the food sources that are available at the time. By artificially inserting a food source outside it's normal timeline, you create a situation where the deer was just eating that food for an extended period of time, so it doesn't associate it with potential harm or health issues.

[Mark the Biologist]

WOW! This is what I was looking for. As stated before, my research led to more questions. Many of the people that replied to the blog from the biologist in the links provided, seemed to be confused and without solid evidence.

I don't think deer can reason. If they could, then the deer I found must have ridden the short bus to the bait pile last winter. Given that here in SW Michigan hasn't had a severe winter such as last winter in quite some time, would explain why so many died as a result from eating the corn. I am still left with this question. Why are there many cases where dead deer are found with stomachs full of corn?

SB, your knowledge on this sounds quite extensive as with many others who obviously live in the northern part of our range. You stated that deer just poop out the corn that isn't digested. If that is the case, why are deer still dying with full stomachs of corn?

Just for gitts and shiggles, lets say one year I decide to travel north to hunt. Because I dont know much about the area(Never heard of cyber scouting) so I decide I want to lay out some bait in an attempt to fill a tag. My intentions would never be to kill more than I need for the freezer. If I am completely unaware of the risk of Acidosis, then the likelihood of me killing more than I need is quite higher given that there is a severe winter coming. On the other hand, if I am surfing around on The Beast and see this information, I pause for a minute and think, I might want to spend a little more time thinking about this. Given that I am only planning a trip for a week or so, I might want to take this into account before doing it.

I have found myself on many occasions asking "How would the person who tried to help the wildlife last winter feel if they knew that they had killed all those deer?" And my answer is always the same. Devastated! Just the gesture of "helping" the wildlife shows compassion. Yet, that person didn't have a clue.

Finding those deer last spring was a real eye opener for me. Although I love KILLING these animals, I do so first to feed myself, secondly to feed my passion. I am first a conservationist out of choice. With this (I feel) comes a responsibility to educate myself regarding whatever nature exposes to me, then share that knowledge with others who may be just as unaware as I was before this happened.

Great conversation everyone

As to why corn is found in the rumen of a deer that perished from rumen acidosis:

The influx of carbohydrates changes the microorganism communities in the rumen. Microorganisms associated with carbohydrate digestion, which are normally at very low concentrations in the winter, increase significantly and overwhelm the other microorganisms in the rumen. The fermentation of the corn generates lactic acid, which lowers the pH of the rumen to dangerous levels and deteriorates the stomach lining. The acids begins to increase in the bloodstream and rumen motility (movement) associated with proper digestion decreases or ceases entirely; this traps food and liquid in the rumen, leading to dehydration, inhibited digestion, and potentially death.

[Mark the Biologist]

A sudden increase or over-consumption of carbohydrates during the winter after that change has occurred can cause a number of issues with deer and other ruminants, including acidosis, diarrhea, and potentially death. The bacteria that digests carbohydrates multiply and produce lactic acid, which lowers the pH of the blood to a dangerous, acidic level. This is known as rumen acidosis.

In a situation where someone over fed the deer, would there be visible sign that the deer were sick? Diarrhea and such? Do Ruminants puke?

Ruminants do not vomit, but a sign of acidosis is diarrhea.

And to clarify, deer can regurgitate cud, but don't vomit like humans do.

[Mark the Biologist]

What a great topic with some excellent, yet segmented information... although it is being blown all over the map with variables which create chaos and false presumptions based on the information presented.

Before anyone should ask "how many deer have you killed?" followed by throwing in a quote here and there from Mark, how about defining exactly what we mean. As Mark pointed out, the transition to primarily woody browse with the associated microbes that will break down this food source isn't exactly clear. I agree with him that variables such as stress created by the environment and weather, along with the loss of other food sources are likely reasons for this shift. That being said, as we speak there are many acorns that continue to be eaten throughout the north (except for areas with excessive depths of snow). Acorns do not have as high of a level of carbohydrate as corn but it is significant enough to continue to be a huge draw to deer. There is little doubt that the deer have evolved to utilize this big woods food source and they continue to do so. After opening many stomachs of deer in October/November/December I routinely find corn mixed with browse such as white cedar or red osier dogwood. My findings indicate they have not been stressed enough to eat corn exclusively when they remain in a fall, physiological digestive process. In my view, it is ludicrous to suggest that deer will not utilize, at least with some digestive efficiency, any type of carbohydrate at this time of the year. Again I feel the need to point out the exception of snowbelt areas and areas where no food sources containing carbohydrates exist...

So, when does the winter shift occur? In Michigan's Upper Peninsula, particularly in the Lake Superior snowbelt, it is assuredly underway. Yet here in the northern Lower Peninsula carbohydrate utilization continues, as it does in most years prior to the loss of the acorns. I belive our primary focus in this thread is to determine the damage done by feeding corn following these physiological changes in deer which puts them in the "winter mode," if you will.

But wait, there's more! In areas that contain little to no baiting all fall (wilderness areas) and that do not contain acorns or beechnuts, the deer will often gorge on corn piles and sugar beet piles. It is as though they cannot help themselves. Someone asked earlier if deer puke, and the answer is yes... all the time when bait piles are present. I have found literally hundreds of puke piles from deer over the years around bait put out by other hunters. Is this detrimental to deer when they gorge like this and suffer from vomiting and diarrhea and the associated dehydration? Of course it is. By the way, the deer that I find gorging on bait are typically yearlings and fawns from the prior spring, at least until winter becomes serious.

I vividly recall a button buck that I found gorging on someone's very large sugar beet pile in the northern Upper Peninsula. He was puking beets as he ran from me, but I couldn't resist and ran him down to give him a hard swat on the rear... I guess I thought I was teaching him to avoid bait when I probably only accomplished adding more stress to the poor little fellow... hopefully it was both. He had been gorging on beets and his abdomen was distended. My thought at the time was how vulnerable that deer was to predation.

To summarize, in my view there are very specific criteria which create a dangerous situation for deer when putting out corn piles. I believe someone asked if even a little bit of corn could kill them as though it would stop them up or blow up inside their digestive tract. They simply cannot digest it for nutritional value in those circumstances, they poop it out just fine most of the time.

btw I wrote my first paper on the anatomy and physiology of the whitetail deer digestive system at age ten (10).

Very well stated!

[Singing Bridge]

Great thread DNG-

Mark, we really appreciate your input and valuable knowledge.

[Dewey]

Very interesting. Up north when feeding deer we switch from corn to sunflower seeds in the winter. Does this do any harm to the deer? Wouldn't think it's nearly as bad as corn.

[ Post made via iPhone ]

[Zap]

They look happy round these parts...

[Dewey]

They look happy round these parts...

What's with the owl? Trying to keep crows out of the bait?

[ Post made via iPhone ]

[Zap]

Blue Jays.

Mix of beans and corn.

[ihookem]

In this case we should ban feeding and baiting at least in winter. This is n't the only problem that is caused by baiting. In northenr mInn. along the north shore, cabins, cottages and resorts feed deer all winter. It brings in a lot of deer and they stay there all winter. In the back miles off the beaten path it is void of deer in a lot of places. Concentrations of this many deer can't be a good thing. No doubt some die of corn, but how many road kills and diseases too. I think the biggest problem occures when they don't have enough browse to mix with their corn. This means the later in the winter the worst thing ya can do is feed them corn. Why can't biologists lobby the state , use common sense and proof to ban bait after November 1 or so?