The Johnny King buck ( story from Jay Fish)

[dreaming bucks]

Jay Fish (the owner of the King buck) has been telling his side of the story on Facebook. He is slowly telling the story chapter by chapter. Now whether you think the buck is a typical or not, it's quite interesting... It's quite a long read, but I thought for this time of the year, we need something to read about world record bucks, right ?
Here it is..................




A little history on the King Buck. Johnny and his family never knew the deer was there. After he shot the deer he found out that a bow hunter had the deer in the field behind his house. The guy was a strict bow hunter and could have shot the deer a couple days before rifle season but wouldn't use a gun. See the deer was in a eradication zone with CWD so it would have been legal for the bow hunter to shoot it.
I talked with this guy and he said he saw it out on the field and called his bow hunting partner and said " I have a 200" typical deer on the field that I could shoot right now." His hunting buddy said shoot him! The guy replies " you know I only bow hunt. Well he took his bow and put on stalk on the King and had to sneak passed about 160" . He got to 50 yards of the King and chose not to shoot as it was to windy. The field was rolling hills so the stalk really wasn't that hard.
The bow hunter called his friend and tolled what he did on the stalk and said I hope the deer makes it until we get back. See the two hunting partners where leaving the next day for their bow hunt to Kansas. He called his wife a couple times a day to see iif the King was still on the field, she would reply yes. The third day he called home and it was opening day of Wisconsin fire arm season. She got the call like the previous days, but this time she told him the deer had been taken. The Johnny King Buck! I will have more history about this deer soon. This is just the begging .

[dreaming bucks]

Chapter 2

History of the King Buck chapter 2
Johnny and his brother met at their mothers house for breakfast like they always do on opening day 2006. They had a hunters size breakfast and enjoyed each others company. It was time for the King boys to head over to their uncles and meet up with the rest of the family for the hunt. They drove for about 15 minutes and Johnny realized he forgot his Rosery back at his mothers house, so they drove back to their mothers. This put them behind schedule.

When they where driving they knew they where going to be late for the morning sit. They turned down the long driveway at their uncles and they could see one of the uncles standing in the field. When they got close enough they could hear him yelling "you have to get up early in the morning to get the bucks." The boys walked out in the field to their uncle and saw he downed a nice 6 point buck. They did the usual hunters hand shake and congratulations . Johnny noticed blood on his uncles fore head. Well we all know what that was from. He got introduced to his scope!

Load up the deer in the truck and off to the barn to meet up with the rest of the guys and see who saw what and who didn't see a thing and make plans for the rest of the day. Chapter 3 tomorrow , Thanks

[dreaming bucks]

Chapter 3

Chapter 3 The King his Spotted!

The gang of hunters met at the barn after the morning hunt and like every year prior they talked about how and ware to start making the deer drives. You see that is what hunters do,they talk! Even though they have driven the same woods at the same time every year for the past 30 years you still have to talk about it.
They decided to drive a piece of woods called the "Pine Knob". Guys got at their posts and others started the drive. It was a smaller section so it never took them long. They got done with the Pine Knob drive and nothing. After talking again about where they should go next they went to piece that Johnny's uncle had sold years back, just they had for 30 years.
When they got to where the "posters" where going to be sitting, Johnny's brother said to Johnny why don't you post hear and I will be a "pusher"? Johnny said I always walk and don't mind. His brother said again, " you sit this time you never get a chance to post. So Johnny and one of his uncles walked down a power line to sit and watch. Johnny's uncle sat by the first pole and Johnny continued a couple poles down. The drivers got in the trucks and where driving to where they would start the "push" from.
The trucks just got out of site. Johnny was in place and his uncle was in place and now it was just lets get this drive started. While sitting there Johnny has something catch his eye behind him and his uncle and kinda in between them. He turns a little ,as not to move to much, and sees three does kinda bouncing towards them. He kept looking for a few seconds and what had kicked them does up changed his life forever!

[dreaming bucks]

Chapter 4

Chapter 4, Shots Fired

Behind the does was a buck, a big buck! I could say Johnny knew this thing was a giant or he knew it would challenge for the World Record,but the truth is he just knew it was a big buck. The family is a farming and meat hunting family. Don't get me wrong they love their hunting and time in the field together, but they shot what they wanted to eat.

The deer kept moving, of course the buck went where does pulled him. They crossed the power line in between Johnny and his uncle. They where much closer to Johnny's uncle. Johnny looked toward his uncle and to him it looked like his uncle fell asleep leaning on the power pole. Here is a very big buck and does in front of his uncle and no shooting! So Johnny tried several times to get his uncles attention. He was trying different things,but how do you wake up a sleeping hunter and not scare the deer off. Johnny can't remember just how he did it , but he did.

Johnny's uncle finally sees the deer and pulls up with his rifle and BANG! A miss! The deer run up a hill in front of Johnny and now they are out of his uncles sight. Johnny knows they are out pretty far for his 1930's bolt action 30/30,that has been passed down through the family for years. He took aim and BANG! The deer hunch's up and jumps and heads for a small patch of woods. Johnny knew he hit it, but how good. Johnny also knows that the deer is headed for the drivers, but they haven't started yet. He watched the deer just standing in the patch of thick trees, trying to figure out his next move.

Johnny knew his gun was spot on as he had just sited it in. He used black electrical tape . Yes I said it, HE USED BLACK ELECTRICAL TAPE. See we must re-visit the part about how old the gun was. It only has open sites and from all the years of use the back site was "sloppy" so Johnny would shoot and add or subtract folded pieces of tape under the back site. I know I have held the gun and saw it, pretty cool! See you tomorrow! Thanks, Chapter 5 ALL BREAKS OUT!

[dreaming bucks]

Chapter 5

Chapter 5, ALL BREAKS OUT!

Johnny could see the buck in the thick stand of trees. It was just out of range for his open site 30/30 so he started moving in. The buck would stand for a while and walk in like a zigg zagg pattern in the trees. Johnny got to where he figured he take another shot and let go with a couple more shots, but thinks they never connected. Johnny would would crawl for a while then pop up and locate the deer and then crawl some more. He gained about 50 yards and fired again. This hit its mark and hit it good! Johnny worked his way in behind the massive buck thinking it was over. The buck had other ideas.

Johnny got to within 50 to 60 yards and the deer jumped up again and started moving away from him. Johnny could now see the others in the hunting party moving toward him. He had to be careful, now there where other hunters in the woods. Johnny fired at the buck as it moved away and it dropped like a stone! Finally, he had him.

Johnny was trying to find more ammo as his gun was out. After a quick search of all his pockets, nothing. That was O.K he thought as the deer was down. Johnny was approaching the downed buck and noticed his cousin was already at the monarch. When his cousin saw Johnny and reached down to grab the animals antler to pick it up as to show Johnny . As he was doing this he said "JOHNNY YOU SHOT A MONSTER." At that second the buck jumped up and lunged forward leaving Johnny's cousin with antler in his hand! Johnny started yelling at his cousin, "YOU BROKE MY BUCK, YOU BROKE MY BUCK!"

The deer stumbled off about 30 yards and Johnny's cousin told Johnny you better finish him! Johnny informed his cousin that he was out of ammo. So Johnny's cousin fired the last shot into the King!


Chapter 6

Chapter 6 Johnny, What did I do

Johnny tagged his deer and brought it back to the farm. The hunting party had never seen a deer quite like this one, not even close! They scored the deer using the family scoring method. You see the story is that Johnny had never had a deer scored before. The family scoring method is you walk up to the deer and say "THAT'S A SMALL ONE, the next class of deer is "THAT'S A NICE DEER" and the final one is "WOW YOU SHOT A BIG ONE" We all know what class of deer Johnny's fell into.

They took the deer to get it registered and the BUZZ right off. No matter where Johnny went the deer was sure to go, sorry broke into a little kids riddle. After several days of friends and others telling Johnny he should get that deer scored, he did. He found a scorer in his local area to score the deer and they set a time to get it done.

John Ramsey was scorer and put the tape to the deer. After the scoring Mr. Ramsey asked Johnny several times. "DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE HERE." Johnny said a big buck from what people are telling me! Mr. Ramsey then said I can't put a score sheet together until that break is ruled on. Johnny went home with his antlers and found numbers to call to have the deer looked.

Johnny received a call from the Book Keeper of Wisconsin Buck and Bear. The person asked if he could come over and see the buck. They met and at that time the book keeper told Johnny to "LOCK THE DEER AWAY AND NOT LET ANYONE SEE IT." He went on to tell Johnny that " YOU HAVE A WORLD RECORD AND WE CAN UNVAIL IT AT THE MADISON SHOW." Now Johnny was really getting excited. This book keeper became Johnny's best friend for the next few weeks, calling Johnny several times a week with questions like"HAVE SHOWN THE DEER?" & "IS YOUR PHONE RINGING OFF THE HOOK?" The book keeper called Deer and Deer Hunting magazine to inform them that he would be showing a World Record. He also called several other members of Buck and Bear to inform them of this deer.

[dreaming bucks]

chapter 7

Chapter 7 " THE FIX IS IN"

The guy I have been referring to as the book keeper is Steve. Steve was calling quite a bit and told Johnny he had to get the antlers to where a ruling could be made on the break. Again knowing Johnny had never had an animal scored before and unfamiliar with the scoring system he just went along with what Steve told him. Johnny was told to call out to Montana to the B&C office about getting the deer looked at. He was told he had two options. One he could drive the deer to Montana to the office or two he could drive it to Harrisburg Pa. Harrisburg was an option because Jack R and the guys from P&Y where there scoring. Why Steve sent Johnny out of the state is mind blowing. Wisconsin Buck and Bear could have taken care of this with no problem,but Steve was looking for that "feather" in his cap from the top brass of these clubs. It became more about him(Steve) than the deer.

Johnny and some of his relatives loaded the antlers into the custom box Johnny built to protect the antlers and off they went for Harrisburg. Fifteen hours later they where there and had to get in contact with Jack R. Johnny met Jack R at a motel by where they where scoring for P&Y. He was told by Jack to leave the antlers and they would call him (Johnny) when they finished. About an hour later Johnny was told they where finished and he could return. At that time Johnny was told that four guys looked at the deer each by himself and they got together and made their ruling. It goes like this,

We have determined that the deer can be scored, because the break fits perfectly into place.

Secondly the so called G-# is not a point because it does not have a figure"8" shape where it meets the beam.

Johnny asked Jack R how that was determined? Jack took a credit card out and said if you run this down the tine you should be able to see "daylight" on either side of the card. Jack ran the card down the beam and Johnny said "I CAN DAYLIGHT RIGHT THERE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE CARD." Jack responded with "IF YOU HAVE TO LOOK FOR IT IT'S NOT THERE." My turn! WHAT ^%*& DOES THAT MEAN? If you have to look it's not there!

Johnny left Harrisburg with a bitter sweet taste in his mouth. His deer could be scored, but the score would be changed in a big way. He went back to his original scorer and the score was changed to 180" B&C net typical. Again with no rule that calls for that point to be non typical.

Let me inject my thought here for a couple seconds on why THE FIX WAS IN.
1, You have a broken beam that the rule to allow them was changed in the late 1990's. How can we have a WR that is broke?
2, The Zaft Buck, although different, how would they explain dropping the Zaft and accepting the King.
3, How do you call that "funny" point typical. It just looks out of place.
That is what I think played a big part into this.
Capter8 JOHNNY KING MY NAME IS JAY FISH, NICE TO MEET YOU!

Chapter 7, JOHNNY KING MY NAME IS JAY FISH, NICE TO MEET YOU.

A couple friends and I where watching on the internet what little bit was being talked about, about this deer. One of my friends was just getting into replicating and was hoping to talk to Johnny about his buck. My buddy and I decided to get a booth at the Madison DEER AND TURKEY EXPO so he could show some of his replicas and tagged along to see what would show up to be scored. My buddy reached out to Johnny and talked briefly with him and told Johnny maybe we could meet at the show. It was Saturday and getting towards the end of the day when I was in the booth and this guy approaches and says, "HI, I AM JOHNNY KING." I introduce myself to him and call my buddy over and after exchanging hand shakes we start talking about the King Buck.

I asked Johnny how things went out in PA. Johnny started with "it's kinda hard to explain." I asked why is that? Johnny starts with how they ruled it could be scored and all the scorers in the room where saying this is the biggest deer they have ever held. Johnny went on to explain how he still so confused why they ruled the point non typical. He said they tolled me why , but when they showed me why it never added up. Johnny went on to say how Jack told him why , but when he went to prove the fact to Johnny the proof of typical was there. Johnny said they treated him so good at first and by the end couldn't get rid of him fast enough.

Johnny explained how when this World Record buzz started he did some reading and looking into what all happens when a deer is panel scored and how they apply rules. Johnny said one of the most confusing things was they told him all four guys looked at the deer by themselves and had to rule on the break and that point. He went on to say I wasn't gone for and hour and they said they where done. How can they do that that fast one at a time. Johnny felt they just wanted rush him out. I asked Johnny if he had signed the score sheet and sent it in to B&C . He said yes, because when he got home he called Steve from WBBC and told him he may not enter the deer in B&C but still wanted to enter it in the WBBC. At that point Steve wasn't a friend anymore! Steve told Johnny if you don't enter it in B&C we (WBBC) don't want it either.

I talked to Johnny and said, "I AM NOT A SCORER, BUT THAT DEER IT TYPICAL AND YOUR GETTING SCREWED." Johnny ended up with drawing the deer from entry. Johnny had the buck at the Madison show so it could be scored by WBBC. When the deer was brought into the scorers room most of the scorers went over to see it. Like all good scorers they wanted to score the buck. When got into the room, Steve ran over hollering,"THAT DEER HAS BEEN RULED ON AND NO ONE WAS TO TOUCH IT." The deer was grabbed and brought out into the hall where the trophys are hung up after they are scored. Of course the King was hung up about 3' off the floor and hidden as best it could be. You see the WBBC hangs the real big deer in a certain area and the rest go on the wall. I went up to see the deer for the first time in person and laughed at where and how it was placed on the wall.

Chapter 8 "JOHNNY THIS DEER HAS BEEN WRONGED, CAN I HELP YOU GET IT ITS DUE!"

[dreaming bucks]

Chapter 8

Chapter 8 Johnny your deer has been wronged, can I help!

After meeting Johnny and seeing his antlers first hand, it me me angry, very angry! I offered Johnny my help. Remember I am not anyone special and I am not a big name, but I know right from wrong and put myself on the line for this deer. At that show in Madison I talked with a 30 year scorer about what happened. All he could say was one I am going to score that deer! After he left our booth many WBBCn and said they would love to put a tape on that deer. They all said it was being screwed.

After that show I got in contact with Jack Comp from West Virginia about having the deer scored for Buckmasters. Jack was was nice enough to call Mike Handley at Buckmasters and Mike contacted us. Within a couple weeks Mike was in a plane and headed North to Wisconsin. Remember B&C telling Johnny he could drive the deer to PA or Montana. Buckmasters came to Johnny.

Mike went to Johnny Kings house to score the deer. After exchanging hand shakes Johnny went and got the deer. He put it on the table in front of Mike. Mike took off his glasses, looked at Johnny and said, "THAT'S A WORLD RECORD!" Mike went on to say, " I WILL SCORE IT FOR THE BOOKS, BUT I KNOW THAT'S A WORLD RECORD AND IT IS TYPICAL BY OUR SYSTEM AND ANY OTHER SYSTEM." After scoring the deer Mike told Johnny King that BTR would love to have the King in their books. He went on to say that if you choose to go with B&C that's fine also. I am not here to compete with B&C.

Johnny entered his deer in BTR and it was named the PERFECT WORLD RECORD! It was also Co Winner of the GOLDEN LAUREL WINNER!

Johnny called Steve from WBBC and boy did Steve change. Johnny was now the bad guy in all of this. Unreal! Johnny King one of the most soft spoken guys I have ever met is now the bad guy! Johnny King and I continued working for the deer. One day we where talking and Johnny said to me " I HAVE HEARD IT SAID BEFORE BY SOME HUNTERS THAT SHOOTING A BIG BUCK WAS THE WORST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE! i KNOW HOW THEY FEEL!"

After working together on this for several years Johnny decided to sell the antlers to me. You see Johnny never needed the money, but he thought it was the only way to get the deer seen and enjoyed. The day I bought the antlers from Johnny King should have been a great day, but it was sad, very sad! Don't get me wrong I am honored to have the antlers, but sad because of why! A few tears where shed that night and a life long friendship was born.

[dreaming bucks]

Chapter 9

CHAPTER 9 "I HOPE I DO YOU PROUD BY "YOUR DEER"

After buying the antlers from Johnny King I contacted people in the antler world and asked how does a person get a deer looked at. I just said " I have this deer that was scored wrong and Jack R made a bad call. I just told these people that all deer I have ever seen scored with that same point and some even worse have all been accepted as typical.

I ended up calling Fred King of B&C. I told him what was going on and could he help? He said the only one that can over rule Jack was the rules committee. I was going to contact the head of the rules committee and see what we could do. I thought this was going to be the way to get this taken care of. WRONG!

The next day i got a call from Jack R. The first thing he asked was "I HEAR YOU HAVE A QUESTION ON THAT BIG NON TYPICAL KING BUCK FROM WISCONSIN." I said back to him that is what your going to call it? We talked for a little bit and it ended with me telling him " YOU WILL BE HEARING A LOT ABOUT THIS DEER IN THE NEAR FUTURE"

The next day I talked with Jack again and it was a little bit edgy. I asked Jack point blank "WHAT IN YOUR RULES MAKES THAT A NON TYPICAL POINT?" He replied " THE NUMBER ONE RULE,BECAUSE I SAID SO!" I said this isn't going to get us anywhere. I said to him you show me in the printed rules of B&C that, that point is non typical and I will go away a happy man knowing I have one of the best deer ever. Again he said "THE ONLY RULE THAT COUNTS, BECAUSE I SAID SO." I then said Jack I am an old poker player from years back. I am not afraid to put my cards on the table. I said " CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG. I HAVE A DEER THAT IS A 6X6 TYPICAL. EVERY TINE HAS A MATE ON THE OTHER BEAM, AND EVERY TINE COMES OFF THE TOP OF THE BEAM. WHAT AM I MISSING?" Again he said because i said so.

The funny thing about this is Jack kept saying after the heat was turned up that he never knew what deer I was talking about after his the big non typical comment. He went on to say that I can't remember every deer. I said I understand, but you said the deer by name!

I asked Jack who made the ruling on the deer? He replied he did, it was an easy call! After grilling him for a few minutes he then said the other guys made the ruling and he left the room and left it to them because he didn't want the blame. The blame? See I can be stubborn very stubborn and I wouldn't let it go and won't. You see to me the truth doesn't come with an expiration date!

After a about a year and half of working behind the scenes and trying to keep this between myself and B&C I realized it was a lost cause. They would not show anything in rule or any literature that made that point non typical. I then had a Master scorer from SCI score it and it ended up #2 by that system. I was invited to bring the deer to the SCI show in Reno. I was driving to the show with a good friend and received a call from a friend that I was being accused of score shopping and that Jack R was at a banquet saying Jay Fish is going around the country trying to get anybody to score the King Buck. I called Jack right away and said what the are you doing saying I am score shopping. I told him I am on my way to SCI and it had nothing to do with B&C. I also said if you can't come up with a name of who turned me down to score the deer, don't start lying to the public.

[dreaming bucks]

Chapter 10

Chapter 10, Marlin and Ron , Thank You.

I was in contact with Marlin thew out the time I owned the King. We talked and tried working together to get this deer it's rightful place in the books. Marlin scored the King Buck on 1-18-2010. He offered to score it and I said "YES" Marlin scored the deer using the B&C rules as a scorer for WBBC. The final score was 215 1/8 net typical and 222 1/8 gross. The antlers where starting to shrink. Johnny had them hanging over his fireplace for years. Our next step was for Marlin to contact some WBBC members and let them know what he happened when he scored the deer and to see what could be done at the state level.

While we where working at trying to get the deer in the state book I was doing a few shows with the King and Knisley Bucks. One show I went to was the Iowa Deer Classic. I was in a booth with Antlers by Klaus and showing the two deer. The Iowa show was very busy with hundreds of questions being asked about both deer. On Saturday I was in the booth with the deer again when I was approached by a guy. He asked if the King Buck was there. I said yes it's right here as I handed the antlers to him. I invited this person into the booth as I could tell he wasn't there just for "A LOOK" at the antlers. After 10 minutes this person was still holding the antlers. After 20 minutes, yep he still had them. Finally I said I need the antlers back as more people wanted to see them.

This person then called me aside and said, " HELLO MY NAME IS RON BOUCHER AND THAT DEER THERE IS A TYPICAL SET OF ANTLERS." I said that is what about 99% of the people and scorers who hold it say. He went on to say "I HAVE TWO PROBLEMS WITH THAT DEER . ONE IS THAT I HAVE TO CALL MY DEAR FRIEND MILO AND TELL HIM HIS DEER HAS BEEN BEAT. TWO IS I AM A 25 YEAR FRIEND OF JACK R AND I HAVE TO CALL HIM AND SAY A BIG MISTAKE WAS MADE ON THIS DEER." I then asked him "IT TOOK 20 MINUTES TO FIGURE THAT OUT?" Ron said " NO I KNEW IN THE FIRST 10 SECONDS ITS NOT THAT DIFFICULT, I TOOK THE EXTRA TIME BECAUSE I KNEW THE CONTROVERSY AND WANTED TO GIVE IT EXTRA TIME."

Ron went on to explain how he could get this deer its do without hurting anyone over it. See Ron was very un easy because of this he is a true blue B&C guy (or was) Also Ron traveled for years with Milo doing shows with Milos deer. He was on the panel when Milos deer was crowned. Rumor was going around that I had some friends that I got together and started all this stuff. Untrue, I never met Marlin or Ron in my life.

Now things get a little goofy. Ron knew the guys that where in the room in Harrisburg when that point was rules nontypical. Glenn H from P&Y was one of them. While at the Iowa show I was walking down one of the rows of antlers with Ron and talking about deer. All of a sudden Ron goes "Glenn" how you doing? It was Glenn H. Ron asked him right off about the King Buck. Glenn said I had nothing to do with it, thats a B&C deer and I am P&Y. Ron asked Glenn again. "YOU MEEN TO SAY YOU NEVER MADE THAT RULING ON THAT POINT?" Glenn again said "NO". Glenn went on to say how Jack R asked him and two other guys to rule on the break, witch they did and said yes it could be scored, but that was it. Something doesn't smell right!

[dreaming bucks]

Chapter 11

Chapter 11, IT"S NOT A SPRINT IT'S A MARATHON

So after the conversation with Glenn H and him admitting to not making any ruling on the G-3 point Ron and I kept in contact after he left back home for Vermont. I was also working with Marlin at the state level. Marlin was in contact with other WBBC scorers and letting them know what he did on scoring the deer and his findings. After a month or two we a panel was formed in the fall to score the deer. I called Ron B to let him know when it would take place. It worked out perfect. Ron was going to be driving threw on his way to Sask. deer hunting. He was going to be an outside eye to watch the panel score the deer. Ron had been at many B&C panels and also being from out of state and having no connection to the deer it would help.

Ron called to let me know he was on the road and heading west to Wisconsin and should arrive in plenty of time for the scoring. Marlin gathered up about 10 scorers (WBBC only requires 5 I believe) so it would be s strong group of scorers. Ron had been driving for about 9 hours, and got a call from Marlin. Marlin advised that there would be no panel scoring. Eli the called Jack R and told him what was happening and Eli called it off. My next step was to call Ron and say it was all off. Disappointment everywhere! This took place on Friday and the panel was to be held on Saturday. That evening I got a call from a guy who started off with "WHAT THE F IS GOING ON WITH THIS PANEL SCORING?" I asked who it was and he replied "IT'S HERMAN FELLAR! I TOOK THE WEEKEND OFF TO COME AND PANEL SCORE A DEER NOW IT'S BEEN CANCELLED." I said yes it had been. He then said"CAN I COME OVER AND SEE IT, I TOOK THE DAY OFF AND MADE PLANS TO BE THERE SO I WOULD AT LEAST LIKE TO COME AND SE THE DEER. I said he was more than welcome to.

Herman showed up and looked at the King Buck (Herman is the Vice President of WBBC) and said what the is the question? It's typical lets just score the dam thing and be done! Ron B had arrived that morning and met Herman and said "WOULD YOU LIKE TO SCORE IT WITH ME? Herman agreed. Ron then asked me can I score the deer with Herman? I said I don't want to be accused of score shopping. Ron said your not shopping we are offering. I agreed to let the deer be scored. They came up with their score of over Milos deer also. It's a World Record!

We sent in the score sheet and it was rejected by B&C. So the deer had been shot some 5 years now and still no score. After a few months Ron was planning to come to the Deer Classic in Madison as there was hopes of a panel again, again shot down. I found out later when Ron was on his way over that fall that Eli was saying he hoped Ron would score the deer while he was in Wisconsin and that it would take the pressure off WBBC. When Ron and Herman did score Eli then started saying Ron was a grand stander for doing and all about getting a pat on the back. See what Eli forgot was Ron had done all this before. He helped train scorers , he panel scored on the several panels, he didn't need this. He stood up for what was right.

That spring in Madison they not only didn't score the deer, but it was not allowed in the building. I snuk it in anyway in a big box and would show people and then put it back in. Nice way to treat a deer from your home state! Several WBBC scorers came by the booth to see the deer and they all said I will score that deer right now and turn in the score sheet, this is B.S what is going on. A very senior member of WBBC and B&C came to my booth and asked to see the deer. I agreed and put the deer in his hands. His face got red and his jaw started clenching. He looked at me and said this is a typical deer. I said yes that is what about every scorer who sees it says. He went on to say what they are doing to this deer is wrong. He continued with I have never been so mad at my club in my life. This deer should have been brought in the front door with trumpets blowing and drums pounding! Instead you have to smuggle it in, in a box! Stan Z said he had received a message from Jack R that if Jay Fish shows up at any show with King Buck they where not allowed to look at. I found out later that Jack had warned many scorers not to hold or even look at the deer.

REALLY, REALLY, JACK, your going to tell grown men and woman what they can and can not look at, at a deer show on their own time. So we are years into this at this point and the hole gets deeper.

[dreaming bucks]

Chapter 12

Chapter 12, IS THE KIND OF DEER YOU WANT AS YOUR WORLD RECORD?

Ron hung around Wisconsin for a few days after the panel scoring and did a little bow hunting. We visited and looked at the albums and albums of pictures of some great bucks and also photos of B&C panels from the past. He is a walking book of knowledge when it comes to deer and scoring.

He headed out for Sask and his hunt. He said he probably wouldn't be available for a couple weeks because of the cost of using his phone from Canada. I wished him luck and safe travels. While Ron was gone I was trying to figure out what to do next. It's difficult knowing you have all the rules on your side, but ego's had taken over. I did an interview with Paul Smith from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and informed him to what had taken place. I liked the interview with Paul as he asked questions from a guy who knows what he is talking about. He also never guided the conversation one bit. After the interview he let me know he was going to contact B&C as he wanted both sides of the story. I agreed and informed I wouldn't have it any other way.

Paul contacted me several days later to let me know he did indeed talk with B&C. I asked him how it went. He then said all I can say is your the only honest one I have talked to! The story was building and more people had been contacting me about the deer and what was happening. I would end all calls with your welcome to come by and see the antlers for yourself.

About a week went by and I received a call from Ron, who was still in Canada on his hunting trip. Ron informed me that Jack R had called him and was not very happy. Ron said that Jack kept saying "IS THAT THE KIND OF DEER YOU WANT AS YOUR WORLD RECORD?" Ron responded to Jack with this " IT'S NOT WHAT I WANT, IT'S WHAT OUR RULES SAY AND THAT IS THAT , THAT DEER IS A WORLD RECORD!" Ron has always told me he goes by this rule when he scores "ALL I CARE ABOUT IS WHAT THE RULE BOOK SAYS AND WHAT GOES ON THE LINES OF THE SCORE SHEET, THAT'S IT"

Deer and Deer Hunting magazine got on this story and they have been on it for a while. Duncan Dobie and Kerri but have been written some very good articles about this deer and I believe you can still find them on line. Also Marlin did a you tube video on scoring the deer that clearly shows that it is typical.

Field and Stream and Outdoor Life wrote some small articles also that where just little hit peaces on me and the deer. I contacted them several times and invited them to come and see the deer and that they could bring any scorer they wanted to give them their thoughts. No one contacted me from either magazine.

I am giving you the shortest version of this story that I can and want to hit all of the most important information so if it gets a little choppy that is why.. Thanks again.

[dreaming bucks]

Chapter 13

CHAPTER 13, YOUR FIRED!

After a lot of pressure from the hunting public, B&C decided to send a couple guys to Madison Deer and Turkey Expo. They told Ron they where going to go there to clear this King Buck issue up and see the deer first hand. You see they told me that the deer was talked about at the rules committee and they unanimously voted not to panel score the deer. One problem is none of them ever saw the King Buck in person. They also put out a press release saying that the King was re-looked at by the Rules Committee in Idaho. I received a couple calls and emails asking when I had the antlers in Idaho, I believe one of those calls was from Dan Cole. I had not even seen the press release or heard of this. Dan asked when I had the antlers in Idaho? I said the antlers had never been to Idaho.

I called Justin S at B&C headquarters and asked him what took place in Idaho? He said that he and Jack put the King Buck information with pictures in front of the rules committee and they voted to not score the deer and it was over. I asked Justin "WHO WAS THERE REPRESENTING THE KING BUCK?" He said no one why? "I SAID YOU AND JACK ARE AGAINST THIS DEER AND I AM SURE YOUR TALK WAS VERY BIASED. Justin told me that he had nothing to loose by being biased against the deer. I responded with yes you do, you have the most to loose, like your job. All he could say is "I DO LIKE MY JOB.

See I can get into the talk I had with Justin about how he said they would like to throw out over half the deer in the books, and how they would like a more exclusive club. I asked him point blank," YOUR TELLING ME YOU WOULD GO THREW THE B&C BOOK AND START CHANGING THE SCORES ON THESE DEER, INSTEAD OF GIVING ONE DEER IT'S DO! H said yes. So I went on to inform him that that would be thousands of deer being chased from the books. He then told , "NO IT'S NOT THAT MANY A COUPLE HUNDRED." "I THEN SAID THINK ABOUT IT, FIRST YOU HAVE TO START WITH THE TYPICAL WHITETAILS, THEN TYPICAL FRAMES ON THE NONTYPICALS THEN WHEN YOUR DONE WITH THAT IT'S THE COUES DEER, MULE DEER IT WOULD BE A MESS." FURTHER MORE ARE GOING TO GO INTO HOUSES OF PEOPLE WHO HAD A GRANDAD SHOOT A B&C DEER AND TAKE THERE DEER OFF THE WALL AND RE-SCORE IT AND THEN SAY SORRY YOUR DEER ISN'T A BOOK DEER ANYMORE. THEN TRY TO GET INTO BASS PRO AND CABELAS AND TELL THEM THAT THEIR COLLECTIONS ARE ALL TO BE RE-SCORED." All this instead of following your rules and giving one deer, just one deer it's rightful place by your rules!

Sorry got a little long winded there. So I think I am back on track now. Ware where we? That's right Madison. So when Ron, Marlin, and I found out Justin and Richard Hales (Richard is now the president of the rules committee) where going to be in Madison to "put this King Buck issue to bed and see the deer first hand. Ron drove back to Wisconsin again and I made the antlers available " again" so it could be debated and finally get its rightful place. I gave the antlers to Marlin to bring to Madison because I thought it best if I stayed clear and let them do what they had to. There was going to be a meeting with the B&C guys Justin and Richard, along with Marlin, Ron, Stan Z, Dave Boland and other guys from WBBC who wanted to see the King buck get it's fair score. Well here we go again! Stan Z told Ron he wanted nothing to do with the meeting and wanted nothing to do with the King buck anymore, there was no meeting, the two guys from B&C didn't even look at the antlers although they sat in the scorers room just for them to look at. Can you believe it come all the way to Wisconsin and never even look at was Jack R said has been the biggest problem in his 25 years at B&C.

Dave Boland went to the B&C booth in the show and talked with Richard Hale about the King Buck. Richard asked Dave what he thought about the deer. Dave said can I be honest? Richard said yes. Dave said that deer is a 6x6 typical and it's a shame we aren't scoring it that way. Richard handed Dave some pictures of the King rack and said, you mean to tell me these are typical points? Dave studied the photos and replied not by those pictures. Dave went on to say"THOSE PICTURES ARE AT SUCH BAD ANGLES THAT YOU COULD MAKE EVERY DEER NONTYPICAL LIKE THAT. Enter Craig Cousins he is also a well known scorer for WBBC and B&C. He to came to the Madison show to see the King Buck and meet with B&C. Craig also looked at the pictures Richard was passing around and said,"YOU CAN'T GO BY THESE PICTURES. THE DEER IS IN THE SCORERS ROOM JUST FOR YOU GUYS TO SEE, WHY DON'T YOU GO UP AND SEE THE ORIGINAL.

Paul Smith was at the show because we all thought finally we are going to have this talked about by the scorers and put to bed. Nope! that would be to easy I guess instead Richard Hale left without seeing the antlers. Stan Z turned his back on us ( we found out later why) and Ron and Craig got fired by B&C. Dave Boland received a few calls warning him to keep his mouth shut or he was next to be fired and P&Y fired Herman Fellar. See Herman scored the deer as WBBC scorer not a P&Y scorer and it was a rifle Kill so it had nothing to do with P&Y.

[dreaming bucks]

Chapter 14

Chapter 5, ALL BREAKS OUT!

Johnny could see the buck in the thick stand of trees. It was just out of range for his open site 30/30 so he started moving in. The buck would stand for a while and walk in like a zigg zagg pattern in the trees. Johnny got to where he figured he take another shot and let go with a couple more shots, but thinks they never connected. Johnny would would crawl for a while then pop up and locate the deer and then crawl some more. He gained about 50 yards and fired again. This hit its mark and hit it good! Johnny worked his way in behind the massive buck thinking it was over. The buck had other ideas.

Johnny got to within 50 to 60 yards and the deer jumped up again and started moving away from him. Johnny could now see the others in the hunting party moving toward him. He had to be careful, now there where other hunters in the woods. Johnny fired at the buck as it moved away and it dropped like a stone! Finally, he had him.

Johnny was trying to find more ammo as his gun was out. After a quick search of all his pockets, nothing. That was O.K he thought as the deer was down. Johnny was approaching the downed buck and noticed his cousin was already at the monarch. When his cousin saw Johnny and reached down to grab the animals antler to pick it up as to show Johnny . As he was doing this he said "JOHNNY YOU SHOT A MONSTER." At that second the buck jumped up and lunged forward leaving Johnny's cousin with antler in his hand! Johnny started yelling at his cousin, "YOU BROKE MY BUCK, YOU BROKE MY BUCK!"

The deer stumbled off about 30 yards and Johnny's cousin told Johnny you better finish him! Johnny informed his cousin that he was out of ammo. So Johnny's cousin fired the last shot into the King!

[dreaming bucks]

Chapter 14 cont....

Chapter 14 cont.

Herman Fellar is a WBBC scorer and P&Y scorer. When he and Ron scored the King together Herman was acting as a WBBC scorer not P&Y. So why he was fired by a bow hunting group over a Rifle hunted deer is beyond me.

Craig Cousins had never held the King Buck in person until the Madison show. He came down to the event because B&C was finally going to see the antlers and try and figure out what to do. He never spoke of the antlers and kept quiet until he saw them. He also was asked by Richard Hale from B&C what he thought and Craig also said it was a typical 6x6. Paul Smith got a quick quote from Craig for his article and Craig was soon fired. Craig thought telling Paul what he thought was no big deal, because he just told Richard Hale to his face what he thought. So I guess you can't be honest anymore.

I kept in contact with Craig and we decided to let him do a video also. It, like Marlins, proved 100% the deer was a 6x6 typical. We mailed Marlins video, Craig's video and a long letter from Ron out to B&C. Jack had said a few times "if you have further proof he would be glad to look at it." B&C then came out and said "we invited them to send more info, but we have not received anything." Well the videos where there and the letter with the rules proving it was typical.

If your keeping score at home that is 2 25 year scorers fired. One P&Y scorer fired. One 30 year scorer getting threats of being the next one to go. By the way this guy has scored more whitetails than the next 2 combined. Also how many that received the email and call to never look at or hold the antlers again.

Before Justin could leave Madison Johnny and I brought the antlers down to a booth for some guys to look at. These guys where deer hunting guides from Kansas. They looked at the deer and laughed out lowed saying are you kidding me, nontypical! They then offered to start a petition and send it to B&C. I said at this point lets just hold off. Justin just happened to be in the B&C booth across the isle. When he saw us he came over to talk. I said he you go you might as well look at sense you came all this way and haven't yet. He said he went up into the scorers room when no one was around and looked at it. Johnny King then held the antlers out and said just hold the antlers and Justin did. Johnny pulled out his phone to take a picture of Justin looking at the deer. Justin jumped back and almost spiked the antler on the ground saying, " I CAN'T GET SEEN HOLDING THESE!" So I took them back. My word he was down right frightened to be seen with the deer.

Chapter 15, THE LETTER! WE WILL BE PANEL SCORING THE KING AS A POTENTIAL WORLD RECORD! This gets very interesting. Believe me this could be the best chapter yet!

[dreaming bucks]

Chapter 15

Chapter 15, The Letter! WE WILL PANEL SCORING THE KING BUCK AS A POTENTIAL WORLD RECORD!

We continued talking and working with people about the King Buck. So so many hunters wanted to know why? I tried to keep everyone up to speed on the events. One Friday evening I get a call from Craig Cousins. He says "ARE YOU SITTING DOWN?" He went on to say "I JUST GOT OFF THE PHONE WITH BUCK BUCHNER. HE IS MAILING ME A LETTER SAYING B&C WILL PANEL SCORE THE ANTLERS IN SEPTEMBER. It was up to me to pick a weekend that would work. Craig let me drop the phone for a minute while I went and let my family know. You see I have thousands of hours of work on this and thousands of miles. Craig said that Buchner would be sending him a letter and he would forward that letter on to me.

A few couple weeks later I received the letter. In stated that B&C was going to put a mini panel together of scorers with no prior contact with the King Buck. The letter went on to say it will be scored as a potential WR and will be treated that way. I wrote a letter back to Buck thanking him and letting him know the date that would work. I later talked to Buchner by phone and things where all put into place. I contact Dan Schmidt from Deer and Deer Hunting magazine to let him know the news. Dan called out to B&C and asked if he could or someone from D&DH could be at the event. Dan was told "NO". He was informed that it would be a private scoring and no one was going to be there. I talked to Buchner a couple days before we left for Montana and I asked him who was going to be there. Buchner said "JACK R AND DUSTIN S WHERE NOT GOING TO BE THERE AND THEY WOULD HAVE NO CONTACT WITH THE DEER. He went on to say,"THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT WILL BE ALLOWED IN THE BUILDING IS YOU, JOHNNY KING , MYSELF AND THE FOUR PANEL SCORERS.

Johnny King, Nola Lebrecht, my wife, my son and I rented a vehicle and off we went, headed west. We drove threw the night as Buck wanted the antlers there on Friday by 2 o'clock and then he would bring them into the B&C office. When we got to Missoula I called Buck and he said that we can bring the antlers in tomorrow when the scoring will take place. We where to meet him in the parking lot by the big bear statue. We where there with bells on.

We met where in the parking lot a little early and car after car kept pulling in. People where walking into the office. I was thinking that's more people than he said. Buck came out and we shook hands and I introduced him to Johnny King, my family, and Nola. We talked for a couple minutes. I then took the antlers out of the vehicle and said "WELL HERE HE IS"

We started talking about the scoring and what would take place. Craig worned me that he heard some buzz about these un-written rules to be used on the deer. I had my brief case with two scorers manuals and much more B&C rules. I had drafted a letter for B&C to sign and for Johnny and myself. In general the letter said that we agree (Johnny and I) to the scoring of the antlers, but only by the written rules in print. Buck "SAID THE RULES THEY WILL USE WHERE IN PRINT SINCE 2000, " He went on to say every single scorer who has went threw the B&C class had been trained by those rules. So I pulled out the B&C manual printed in 2000 and said those rules are not in here. Buck said " THOSE RULES WHERE PASSED IN 2000 BUT WE NEVER HAD TIME TO PUT THEM IN THE BOOK. My next move was that I had the 2009 scorers manual and said then why are they not in here? Buck kinda turned white and was silent. I went on and said can you sign this letter saying you will only follow the written rules? Buck took the letter and walked off. He was gone for about a half hour and came back and said " WE WILL NOT SIGN THIS LETTER AND YOU CAN TAKE YOUR DAM ANTLERS AND GO HOME!" I told Buck we came all this way and wanted know the rules of the game before we jump on the field. I explained to Buck that we would let B&C score the deer , but if any rules where applied that where not in manual we would not accept the score.

Buck took the antlers and said they would panel score the deer. I asked him one more question. I asked " WILL ACCEPT THIS ORIGINAL SCORE SHEET?" I said " YOU CAN'T HAVE A WR PANEL SCORING WITHOUT A SCORE THAT IS HIGHER THAN THE STANDING RECORD." Buck said "NO". So I said "SO THE KING IS GOING INTO A WR PANEL WITH A SCORE OF "0". That right there is against the B&C rules also.

So they took the antlers and off they went. Buck said they would call us when they where done. He said it could take a couple hours and no one would know the score until we where called back and had a chance to talk about the scoring and what was done. So off we went and to wait for the call. I will post the letter i received from Buck about the WR panel and also the letter we brought out to B&C. Remember how he said no one was going to be there and also Justin and Jack where not allowed. Well Justin walked by a couple times and people where all over the building, something doesn't smell right!

Chapter 16. I WILL GET YOU THE PROOF!