CWD alive and well

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carl1191
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Re: CWD alive and well

Unread postby carl1191 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:04 pm

trapper57 wrote:
carl1191 wrote:I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you guys on the theory that CWD has always been here. When you look at the research that theory just doesn't hold water. Testing has been conducted around this state ever since 2000, with only positives showing up near and around the areas where it was first discovered. Except for some of the newly discovered areas. If it has always been here, why do you see the continued building and expansion around the areas where it was first discovered and not in the rest of the state? If it was always here you could reasonably expect that the disease would be relatively evenly spaced across the whole state and other states for that matter.
You see the same thing in the western states that have had the disease the longest. One just has to look at the maps of areas with known infections of the disease to see that it is spreading and building in those areas.
CWD builds slowly and deliberately, radiating out as infection rates intensify. I think it may take 50-100 years for the disease to spread throughout the whole state, but it will happen and we will see some negative effects to the deer herd because of it.
I think that one of the effects will be a lowered adult deer population, especially older bucks since they are more susceptible to picking it up. I think that it will be dam hard to find a buck older than 4 in this state when it eventually gets to that level.

Just my ramblings on the subject.


My problem is that there is no proof whatsoever that the disease effects or kills every animal that has it.

So why kill every deer to try and stop it.
Let nature take its course, it can't be any worse than destroying the deer herd the way the DNR did!

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Actually the research proves that it is %100 fatal to deer and they have not found any whitetails with genetics that are resistant to the disease. It just has a long incubation period, so it can take up to 24 months before death. I don't believe that it can be stopped, at least not with what management options are available today. But, I think we as hunters should be trying to minimize the effects as much as we can. I don't know what the answer is, but I think that getting deer populations under control is a start. It might at least slow the spread and reduce the infection rates. I think killing all of the deer is an impossible approach, and what would that do. As soon as the deer came back they would be picking up the disease again since the disease causing prions remain in the soil for who knows how long. I don't think we should just give up. I believe there is too much at stake.


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Re: CWD alive and well

Unread postby exojam » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:14 pm

You have a link to the research showing the information you stated?
trapper57
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Re: CWD alive and well

Unread postby trapper57 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:16 pm

carl1191 wrote:
trapper57 wrote:
carl1191 wrote:I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you guys on the theory that CWD has always been here. When you look at the research that theory just doesn't hold water. Testing has been conducted around this state ever since 2000, with only positives showing up near and around the areas where it was first discovered. Except for some of the newly discovered areas. If it has always been here, why do you see the continued building and expansion around the areas where it was first discovered and not in the rest of the state? If it was always here you could reasonably expect that the disease would be relatively evenly spaced across the whole state and other states for that matter.
You see the same thing in the western states that have had the disease the longest. One just has to look at the maps of areas with known infections of the disease to see that it is spreading and building in those areas.
CWD builds slowly and deliberately, radiating out as infection rates intensify. I think it may take 50-100 years for the disease to spread throughout the whole state, but it will happen and we will see some negative effects to the deer herd because of it.
I think that one of the effects will be a lowered adult deer population, especially older bucks since they are more susceptible to picking it up. I think that it will be dam hard to find a buck older than 4 in this state when it eventually gets to that level.

Just my ramblings on the subject.


My problem is that there is no proof whatsoever that the disease effects or kills every animal that has it.

So why kill every deer to try and stop it.
Let nature take its course, it can't be any worse than destroying the deer herd the way the DNR did!

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Actually the research proves that it is %100 fatal to deer and they have not found any whitetails with genetics that are resistant to the disease. It just has a long incubation period, so it can take up to 24 months before death. I don't believe that it can be stopped, at least not with what management options are available today. But, I think we as hunters should be trying to minimize the effects as much as we can. I don't know what the answer is, but I think that getting deer populations under control is a start. It might at least slow the spread and reduce the infection rates. I think killing all of the deer is an impossible approach, and what would that do. As soon as the deer came back they would be picking up the disease again since the disease causing prions remain in the soil for who knows how long. I don't think we should just give up. I believe there is too much at stake.


Where did you see all this info?
I've never seen any proof other than a lot of theory.

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dan
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Re: CWD alive and well

Unread postby dan » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:27 pm

Actually the research proves that it is %100 fatal to deer and they have not found any whitetails with genetics that are resistant to the disease. It just has a long incubation period, so it can take up to 24 months before death. I don't believe that it can be stopped, at least not with what management options are available today. But, I think we as hunters should be trying to minimize the effects as much as we can. I don't know what the answer is, but I think that getting deer populations under control is a start. It might at least slow the spread and reduce the infection rates. I think killing all of the deer is an impossible approach, and what would that do. As soon as the deer came back they would be picking up the disease again since the disease causing prions remain in the soil for who knows how long. I don't think we should just give up. I believe there is too much at stake.


I actually studied this disease really well when it came to Wisconsin... Most of what Wisconsin has preached about CWD is false or misleading. It was more a political scam of the Doyle era to reduce the herd in the southern portion of the state.

they have not found any whitetails with genetics that are resistant to the disease.

This is false... About 24% of the whitetails have shown to have resistance to the disease. Yes it still kills them, but it takes longer than the rest.

I don't believe that it can be stopped, at least not with what management options are available today. But, I think we as hunters should be trying to minimize the effects as much as we can.

This is partly true... It cannot be stopped. But, just how could you possibly slow it down? I seen a study that proved when you lower the population the disease spreads faster because bucks increase there home range searching for does that are know harder to find. ( bucks carry the disease more frequently than does. )

The disease is in our soil and cannot ever be removed. Its here to stay forever, it cannot effect humans, or any other non-deer family creature and never will. so what are we managing? We going to kill the deer to save the deer?

The disease has been in Western States longer than I have been alive, and guess what? No one out there seems to really care. It has not ruined hunting, nobody out there has died from it. ( nor will they ever ) and there is still decent hunting out there....

Furthermore, they have been finding it every where they look for it. Such as the deer found wandering in New mexico with CWD... No deer farms anywhere around, and no other cases for hundreds of miles...

Some other things to consider... When CWD prions are eaten and digested they don't "die" where ever they are crapped there is now CWD in the soil... Sooo, when a vulture or a crow eats the rotting flesh of a deer that died of CWD then flys 500 miles and craps, guess what?

Did you know cwd can be spread thru urine? And where do we see the most cwd cases? hmmm... Deer farms maybe? Hmmm... Is that not where they make deer urine they sell to rut hunters at every store across the usa and canada? Hmmm... Wonder how CWD is showing up everywhere?

How about the fact they refused to make double fencing mandatory at deer farms ( even ones that tested positive) even though its well known that the inside deer and the outside deer are in contact thru the fence every night.
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Re: CWD alive and well

Unread postby dan » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:40 pm

Here is what Wyoming DNR officials had to say about Wisconsin officials scare tactics about CWD spreading to humans:


There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that hunters and others who consume venison containing the proteins that cause the deadly brain ailment chronic wasting disease will get the disease, according to Wyoming Game and Fish Department scientists.

Wyoming officials said the risk of death to humans who eat such meat appear nonexistent.

"Nobody has ever died from CWD and people have been eating (deer meat that could contain prions) for 25 years," said Terry Kreeger, Supervisor of the Game and Fish Department's Veterinary Research Services.



Here is why we cannot "eradicate" CWD from Wisconsin according to UW Scientists:



scientists at the University of Wisconsin-Madison suggest that certain soil types serve as natural prion repositories in the wild. As animals regularly consume soil to meet their
mineral needs, it's possible that prion-laden soil particles contribute to the
transmission of prion disease such as CWD among animals.

"Prions most likely enter soil via excretion or from the carcasses of infected
animals,"

"We also wanted to determine how difficult it is to remove prions from clay,"
says senior author Joel Pedersen, a UW-Madison assistant professor of soil
science. "It turned out to be extremely difficult."

In fact, prions could be released from clay only when the scientists boiled the
clay-bound proteins in a detergent solution.


State Representative Garey Bies regarding where CWD came from in Wisconsin.:



Also regarding Chronic Wasting Disease, I was quite shocked to learn that the University of Wisconsin-Madison, in 1988 inoculated live animals with CWD. One type of animal that was inoculated was mule deer. And I find it more than a little suspicious that a mule deer, shot by a hunter in the Mt. Horeb area during that time, was immediately confiscated by the Department of Natural Resources. Why were the Department and the University not forthcoming with this bit of information? Could these mule deer, infected with CWD by the University be the source of the disease in our native whitetail population? I requested the Committee to inquire with the University as to the nature of the CWD experiments and what happened to all of the animals infected.


Statement by Dan Infalt on Rabies VS CWD
Quote

30 years of testing to see if they could infect other animals with CWD has resulted in NO test animals getting the disease other than other deer. I would rather eat raw venison off of an infected deer, than handle a rabid Bat. Why not put a big circle on the freakin map and kill all of the bats?? Probably because Governor Doyle is not getting a kick back from auto insurance companies to reduce the number of Bat / car accidents. Yes friends... Rabie's is far more dangerous than CWD, and nobody is doing anything to stop it.



Quotes from MATT VERDON DNR CWD Cordinator, in an email response to Dan Infalt:


Simply put, with the size of the infected area and the factors involved, deer eradication is unrealistic as a means to control the disease.

There has been research done that shows the disease can be obtained from the environment

the highest we have seen is 10-12% of the adult population infected.

Matt
Q Matthew Verdon
Chronic Wasting Disease Data Coordinator
Bureau of Wildlife Management




Aldo Leopold, on wildlife Eradication way back in 1944:


. . This episode shows that a scientific bureau, confronted with a question of wildlife eradication, may prefer to lose the wildlife than to lose time in scientific research for alternatives. In one sense this is water over the dam, but in another it carries a lesson for the future. At best, the scientific base in this case was sketchy, and no imagination had been used in searching for less destructive alternatives."
"It is time for us to learn caution and restraint in our power to eradicate wild things." --Aldo Leopold, December 5th, 1944




Dr. James Kroll

Its My strong opinion is that CWD and other diseases never will be eradicated from wild deer herds. They just become a factor to consider in management.
Professor James C. Kroll, Founder & Director, Institute for White-tailed Deer Managament & Research



Colorado DNR Scientist speaks about CWD culling
The agency's lead scientist on CWD and an early proponent of culling, Mike Miller, said data collected over the years don't show that thinning herds has had any significant effect on the rate of the disease in the wild.


Colorado Officials comment on there 30+ years of CWD
CWD has never taken down vast numbers of deer as once feared. In fact, in the most infected pockets of the state, the rate of disease among deer is about 10 percent, not much different than it's been for several years.



Professor Charles Southwick comments on culling CWD deer.

One prominent critic of the culling approach has been retired University of Colorado biology professor Charles Southwick, who has argued that culling might actually exacerbate the spread of CWD.

That's based on his view that clearing deer out of a "hot spot" just opens the door for more deer to come in and contract the disease from the environment, where research suggests the agents behind the disease can subsist in soil and feces.

In addition, Southwick has argued, it might be that most deer and elk have a natural resistance to CWD. By killing off mostly healthy populations, the division might be reducing the creatures that have that resistance, under his view.
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Re: CWD alive and well

Unread postby trapper57 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:09 pm

A lot of good info here Dan.
Great work!

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Re: CWD alive and well

Unread postby carl1191 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:07 am

Dan I agree with you that it is here to stay. But, in the same respect I think just saying heck with it and not trying to do anything about it is the wrong approach.

I get a lot of my information from the USGS Wildlife Health Lab. Bryan Richards is the lead research scientist on CWD and I trust his opinion. He has a few fact sheets on their website that corroborate my claims that CWD is always fatal. Yes, there are some deer that show a slight genetic resistance to CWD, but it just takes them longer to die.
http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/
There is a menu on the left side of the page with a menu titled disease information. CWD in under the drop down menu.

I have not seen a study suggesting that lowering the population can in fact increase the spread. Would you mind providing a link, I would love to read it just for my own education. The studies that I have seen say that the biggest threat to spread is highly saturated deer densities.

Dan the whole Rep. Gerry Geis thing was a total misunderstanding on his part. I think that it was one heck of an allegation that had no proof whatsoever behind it. I think that UW Madison is a very trustworthy source and would put more stock into what they had to say about the situation than any Representative.

Here is there response to his unfounded allegations:
http://www.news.wisc.edu/cwd/

And yes, Rabies is something of concern, but you can't compare the two diseases. The way they spread is totally different. Again, I will say that trying to totally eradicate the deer herd in the original CWD area was a failure from the start. Could it have worked to stop the disease, I don't think we will ever know because it never happened.

As far as scare tactics about CWD spreading to humans, I don't remember seeing anything from the DNR about it being able to spread to humans. The only thing that I read is that the science suggested that it was probably remote, but that they couldn't say with 100% certainty.

I think the best hope is they can slow down the spread to other parts of the state. Who know what scientific breakthroughs will come about in the future.

About the culling of deer in CWD areas. I think that in the CWD zone, the best that can be accomplished is that they can stabilize the infection rate at a lower level. As of right now it is increasing every year. There was some research just completed comparing the approaches of Illinois vs. Wisconsin. Illinois has managed to keep their overall infection rate at or near 1% and Wisconsin's has climbed to nearly 5%. I'll try to find it again if I can and provide a link.

An example of culling working is when you have a new positive pop up in a new area. Minnesota had that CWD positive back several years ago. Their DNR went in and worked with landowners to cull deer in the immediate area and it worked, because they haven't had a another positive since. The same thing happened in the state of New York around 2005. They culled a lot of deer in the surrounding areas of the positives and they have not had any more positives either. The Kroll report even recommends that the DNR jump on new positives right away and keep them from building.

About the showing up mysteriously stuff. I don't have all the answers, but I do see your point about the deer industry selling urine all over the country. I think that there is some strong correlations suggesting that that industry may be helping to facilitate the movement. The USGS website has a map showing known CWD positive farms and areas with known wild CWD positives. One can make that connection for themselves.

The DNR has this new mapping application that shows all the sections that have had positives in the past. A friend of mine just showed it to me. If you click on the sections, it will show you how many deer have been tested and how many have came back positive. The areas near the original discoveries have the most positives and they tend to decrease as you go out from there.
http://dnrmaps.wi.gov/sl/?Viewer=CWD

I think the reason that some people don't see any sick deer is because the clinical signs (emaciation, drooling, etc.) don't start happening until shortly before they die. They can look perfectly healthy up until that point.

About out west. I will try to find something I read quite a while ago about their being herd reductions in some of the core CWD areas out their from the disease. The one in question was a Mule Deer population near Boulder Colorado. The biologist noted quite a bit of reduction in the herd, something like 25%. I believe that it was an unhunted population in the suburbs. Hopefully I can find it.

Sorry about the links, but I don't know how to make them so they work.

I respect each and every one of your opinions on the matter, but this is mine. I don't want to offend anyone or cause Ill feelings. I really love this site and appreciate Dan and everyone else's willingness to share hunting tactics freely. I think that maybe we should just not beat any dead horses and just let it be. We can agree to disagree on the matter.

Sorry for the long ramble.
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Re: CWD alive and well

Unread postby Brad » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:15 am

From what I have heard it mostly effects buck, or more bucks than does anyway. If it takes years to reach the point that it actually kills the deer, how many deer will actually live long enough to die from CWD rather than a car, hunters, predators etc.

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Re: CWD alive and well

Unread postby dan » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:48 am

I have not seen a study suggesting that lowering the population can in fact increase the spread. Would you mind providing a link, I would love to read it just for my own education. The studies that I have seen say that the biggest threat to spread is highly saturated deer densities.


Been looking for it... I am having a hard time locating it. If I remember correctly, it was a lady researcher working for U.W. on a grant from the WDNR to show that reducing the population would reduce the spread of CWD... I was alerted to the study when it made the news that the DNR was so upset that the study did not find what they wanted, they stopped all her funding.

In other words, when they are doing research, they had better find the results they are paid to find or else they will loose all funding. This was the Doyle years, and as we know, Doyle was excepting large cash amounts labeled "campaign money" from a collaboration group of auto insurance companies... The same group that now employs him... And, the CWD map is just about a mirror image of the insurance groups "to many car deer accidents" map...

Dan I agree with you that it is here to stay. But, in the same respect I think just saying heck with it and not trying to do anything about it is the wrong approach.
And what would you suggest? killing most of the deer spreads the disease border faster, killing none of the deer don't help, killing lots of the deer don't help... What would you recommend we do? Its here forever no matter what you decide. So really, your answer is irrelevant. The only thing they could do is find ways to terminate the prions that is environmentally friendly. And that, don't look to likely.


Dan the whole Rep. Gerry Geis thing was a total misunderstanding on his part. I think that it was one heck of an allegation that had no proof whatsoever behind it. I think that UW Madison is a very trustworthy source and would put more stock into what they had to say about the situation than any Representative.

I guess I agree that its irrelevant where it came from. Its here, and thats what can't be changed.

I think the best hope is they can slow down the spread to other parts of the state. Who know what scientific breakthroughs will come about in the future.

1st off, I don't think it will ever be up north the way it is around here. It does not spread well in sandy soils. Some research shows that the disease map is very similar to the soil map. The disease is mainly where there is a clay based soil. 2ndly. its most likely already there... I remember early testing that found some cwd cases thought Wisconsin but then real quick it was recanted and we were told it was a false reading... I remember a deer a guy shot back in the 90's in oconomowoc that just laid there foaming at the mouth and let him walk up and arrow it. When the skull cap was cut off the brains were mush... Pretty sure that was CWD and that area is not in the CWD area.

About the culling of deer in CWD areas. I think that in the CWD zone, the best that can be accomplished is that they can stabilize the infection rate at a lower level. As of right now it is increasing every year. There was some research just completed comparing the approaches of Illinois vs. Wisconsin. Illinois has managed to keep their overall infection rate at or near 1% and Wisconsin's has climbed to nearly 5%. I'll try to find it again if I can and provide a link.

Really, so a disease that leaches into the soil and stays there forever will never increase in transition over time if we keep the population at 5 deer per square mile? I don't buy that. At best your buying a little time. And not much of that either... In Colorado where the disease has been there almost 1/2 a century, the percent of infection has really never changed much at all despite deer numbers. In 50 years its still at about 10% at its highest ever area.
An example of culling working is when you have a new positive pop up in a new area. Minnesota had that CWD positive back several years ago. Their DNR went in and worked with landowners to cull deer in the immediate area and it worked, because they haven't had a another positive since. The same thing happened in the state of New York around 2005. They culled a lot of deer in the surrounding areas of the positives and they have not had any more positives either. The Kroll report even recommends that the DNR jump on new positives right away and keep them from building.
A little late for that here... And as far as Kroll, I like the guy, but hius opinion was a lot different before he got hired by Wisconsin. He was on a TV show called Texas trophy hunters slamming Wisconsin for its poor handling of the CWD disease for many of the reason I have given here... You can probably find that show on line somewhere.

About the showing up mysteriously stuff. I don't have all the answers, but I do see your point about the deer industry selling urine all over the country. I think that there is some strong correlations suggesting that that industry may be helping to facilitate the movement. The USGS website has a map showing known CWD positive farms and areas with known wild CWD positives. One can make that connection for themselves.

Agreed... But my point was thats a better way to fight spread than what they are doing here.. Its already here, and its here to stay. Managing the whitetails the way they should be managed instead as a disrespectful slaughter would be a better plan. They could stop the sale of urine, they could double fence deer farms, but that really don't seem to be the true agenda, does it?


The DNR has this new mapping application that shows all the sections that have had positives in the past. A friend of mine just showed it to me. If you click on the sections, it will show you how many deer have been tested and how many have came back positive. The areas near the original discoveries have the most positives and they tend to decrease as you go out from there.
Agreed... but its irrelevant. NOTHING YOU CAN DO SHORT OF KILLING EVERY SINGLE DEER WILL EVER STOP THIS DISEASE FROM SPREADING. And, if we kill all the deer, we can never ever bring them back cause the disease is in the soil.
I think the reason that some people don't see any sick deer is because the clinical signs (emaciation, drooling, etc.) don't start happening until shortly before they die. They can look perfectly healthy up until that point.
I agree with that... More likely to find them dead than see them sick and know what your seeing.

About out west. I will try to find something I read quite a while ago about their being herd reductions in some of the core CWD areas out their from the disease. The one in question was a Mule Deer population near Boulder Colorado. The biologist noted quite a bit of reduction in the herd, something like 25%. I believe that it was an unhunted population in the suburbs. Hopefully I can find it.
Out west, a lot of the leading scientists are saying culling didn't and don't work. Only total removal would stop the spread.


I respect each and every one of your opinions on the matter, but this is mine. I don't want to offend anyone or cause Ill feelings. I really love this site and appreciate Dan and everyone else's willingness to share hunting tactics freely. I think that maybe we should just not beat any dead horses and just let it be. We can agree to disagree on the matter.

Now you say this after I have typed for 20 minutes. :lol: I respect your opinion. There is no way every body is going to agree on everything. Just in closing, I want to say that at the time CWD came into play Doyle was in charge of the WDNR. He hired lawyers and friends ( campaign donors ) to run the WDNR. Those guys with no background in wildlife management or Biology were the driving force on the CWD eradication rules that we had then, and still have now. I was in touch with a few DNR friends and they told me many of the wildlife educated guys tried to speak up and were threatened to be fired. They even sent a letter that was forwarded to me at the time reading confidential to WDNR employees, and said they would be fired if they expressed any views to anyone other than the views of the department.
Soooo... They stop funding to research people whom have differing opinions and fire wildlife experts who have would life opinions... I think its easy for me to say I trust what I am hearing from out west a lot more than from here.... No offense meant to any one. But, I don't buy that they are changing anything by killing tons of deer... And its nice to see there is a plan in effect to stop it this coming season.
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Re: CWD alive and well

Unread postby carl1191 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:23 am

Thanks for the reply Dan. It's nice to see that you can debate someone and keep it civil. That's part of the reason that I like this site so much. Too much drama on some of the others, I won't name names. Good luck with the upcoming scouting season and try to stay warm in this cold weather.

Carl1191


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