Shedding Bucks

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JoeRE
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Re: Shedding Bucks

Unread postby JoeRE » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:16 am

James wrote:I hold with the belief that it purely related to a bucks testosterone levels.
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I don't think that is a belief, it has basically been proved by studies. Lots of things effect testosterone levels in bucks including stress (injuries, weather, access to food, highly competitive rutting etc), does/doe fawns coming in heat in a second or third rut, so it ends up being pretty complex.


That applies to antler growth too. Look at this spring...antler growth seemed to get started late lots of places across the midwest because we were still getting "winter" in April.


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Re: Shedding Bucks

Unread postby JoeRE » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:24 am

Edcyclopedia wrote:
dan wrote:
But, I also know from deer farm studies that in a low stress area deer will drop pretty close to the same date every year individually. I think it was something like within a 48 hour window, it might have even been tighter than that.

So, if a certain buck dropped on January 7th, the next year he would be at about the same date. But another buck in the same heard may drop march 3rd give or take a day every year...


Genetic?


I don't think so, or at least its not the case in many instances - just based on my observations I have seen individual bucks drop really early one year and then hold their antlers to a much later date the next year. I can't think of any buck I remember watching drop super early every year but I suppose it could happen.
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Re: Shedding Bucks

Unread postby dukemichaels » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:38 am

I have been shed hunting for many.. many years. I've learned a lot from observation and from other shed hunters across the country. I've also been utilizing trailcams more regularly over the past 5 years.. with much heavier emphasis on scouting for bucks who have shed their antlers (that's right.. I use them mainly for this).

I think everyone in this thread is correct for the most part. It's a testosterone thing.. that seems to happen more or less quickly depending on the outside factors of food.. and travel stress after the rut.

And.. if you were to talk to any shed hunter who knows his/her salt about antlers.. they would more than likely tell you that the injured and 2 year old bucks are often the first to shed.

Why age two? Well.. if you utilize trailcams its pretty obvious to see that they are often the most mobile in the rut. In fact.. over the years I've gotten pretty good at guessing which buck(s) will drop early just by checking cams.

One of the farms I hunt is over 1500 acres of the worst ground you'll ever see. When I get a two year old to walk in front of the nearly 10 cameras on this farm inside of two.. three.. weeks. I know he's going to shed quickly.. as those 10 cams cover miles and miles of ground in between them. Those two year olds drop quick. And it happens repeatedly every year.

As far as dropping on the same date each year.. not wild deer. Penned raised deer with the same food sources and very little ground to cover sure.. but not wild deer.

My observations.. food and each individual bucks travel distances seem to be the greatest of factors. And they.. like someone stated.. likely directly effect testosterone.
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Re: Shedding Bucks

Unread postby BassBoysLLP » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:43 am

dukemichaels wrote:I have been shed hunting for many.. many years. I've learned a lot from observation and from other shed hunters across the country. I've also been utilizing trailcams more regularly over the past 5 years.. with much heavier emphasis on scouting for bucks who have shed their antlers (that's right.. I use them mainly for this).

I think everyone in this thread is correct for the most part. It's a testosterone thing.. that seems to happen more or less quickly depending on the outside factors of food.. and travel stress after the rut.

And.. if you were to talk to any shed hunter who knows his/her salt about antlers.. they would more than likely tell you that the injured and 2 year old bucks are often the first to shed.

Why age two? Well.. if you utilize trailcams its pretty obvious to see that they are often the most mobile in the rut. In fact.. over the years I've gotten pretty good at guessing which buck(s) will drop early just by checking cams.

One of the farms I hunt is over 1500 acres of the worst ground you'll ever see. When I get a two year old to walk in front of the nearly 10 cameras on this farm inside of two.. three.. weeks. I know he's going to shed quickly.. as those 10 cams cover miles and miles of ground in between them. Those two year olds drop quick. And it happens repeatedly every year.

As far as dropping on the same date each year.. not wild deer. Penned raised deer with the same food sources and very little ground to cover sure.. but not wild deer.

My observations.. food and each individual bucks travel distances seem to be the greatest of factors. And they.. like someone stated.. likely directly effect testosterone.


Interesting. Never thought of it that way but it makes complete sense and is consistent with my findings. Thanks for sharing.

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dan
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Re: Shedding Bucks

Unread postby dan » Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:03 am

JoeRE wrote:
Edcyclopedia wrote:
dan wrote:
But, I also know from deer farm studies that in a low stress area deer will drop pretty close to the same date every year individually. I think it was something like within a 48 hour window, it might have even been tighter than that.

So, if a certain buck dropped on January 7th, the next year he would be at about the same date. But another buck in the same heard may drop march 3rd give or take a day every year...


Genetic?


I don't think so, or at least its not the case in many instances - just based on my observations I have seen individual bucks drop really early one year and then hold their antlers to a much later date the next year. I can't think of any buck I remember watching drop super early every year but I suppose it could happen.

I didn't get that from observation, or from what I "think"... There have been studies that have shown this to be the case, and its common knowledge with deer farmers.
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Re: Shedding Bucks

Unread postby Bucky » Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:05 am

dukemichaels wrote:I have been shed hunting for many.. many years. I've learned a lot from observation and from other shed hunters across the country. I've also been utilizing trailcams more regularly over the past 5 years.. with much heavier emphasis on scouting for bucks who have shed their antlers (that's right.. I use them mainly for this).

I think everyone in this thread is correct for the most part. It's a testosterone thing.. that seems to happen more or less quickly depending on the outside factors of food.. and travel stress after the rut.

And.. if you were to talk to any shed hunter who knows his/her salt about antlers.. they would more than likely tell you that the injured and 2 year old bucks are often the first to shed.

Why age two? Well.. if you utilize trailcams its pretty obvious to see that they are often the most mobile in the rut. In fact.. over the years I've gotten pretty good at guessing which buck(s) will drop early just by checking cams.

One of the farms I hunt is over 1500 acres of the worst ground you'll ever see. When I get a two year old to walk in front of the nearly 10 cameras on this farm inside of two.. three.. weeks. I know he's going to shed quickly.. as those 10 cams cover miles and miles of ground in between them. Those two year olds drop quick. And it happens repeatedly every year.

As far as dropping on the same date each year.. not wild deer. Penned raised deer with the same food sources and very little ground to cover sure.. but not wild deer.

My observations.. food and each individual bucks travel distances seem to be the greatest of factors. And they.. like someone stated.. likely directly effect testosterone.


I agree with your observation.... it is stress related for sure... more intense rutting = more stress, injury = stress, less food available = stress, deep snow with ice layer = nutritional stress, more deer to breed due to over abundance = stress
Some how stress equates to hormonal changes that cause casting of the antlers

In a controlled environment you eliminate most of the stress and timing of the drop has been shown to be consistent... not the case in wild deer. I have a PILE of sheds and history with many deer to prove that wild deer rarely drop the same day year to year. The date is from trailcams and not the day the antlers were picked up. I used to run up to 15 cams with friends in Dec-Mar... getting lazy I think we only have 3-4 out now :lol:
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Re: Shedding Bucks

Unread postby dan » Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:13 am

Dr Dave Samual
One researcher in Mississippi looked at the casting dates for individual bucks in captivity and found that as long as the environment was the same, individual bucks dropped their antlers about the same date every year. These captive bucks got the same diet all the time, thus their body condition probably stayed the same after the rut, year after year. The fact that they dropped their antlers on the same date each year suggests some kind of innate program within each buck that causes them to drop their antlers. That’s fine for captive bucks, but in the wild, other factors listed above come into play, causing the great variation we see in the timing of antler drop.


So again, stress is a factor in wild deer, but under the same conditions the drop date will be about the same date. This tells me, that even with some stress, some deer, for some reason, drop later than other annually.
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Re: Shedding Bucks

Unread postby dan » Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:15 am

In a controlled environment you eliminate most of the stress and timing of the drop has been shown to be consistent... not the case in wild deer. I have a PILE of sheds and history with many deer to prove that wild deer rarely drop the same day year to year. The date is from trailcams and not the day the antlers were picked up. I used to run up to 15 cams with friends in Dec-Mar... getting lazy I think we only have 3-4 out now

Agreed, but, if a deer would drop January 7th naturally if he had "0" stress, and another would naturally drop march 3rd... Given the same amount of stress which one do you think is dropping faster?
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Re: Shedding Bucks

Unread postby Stanley » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:54 am

I think if we sum up what we know we can put somewhat of handle on shedding and when it takes place. We know for sure that almost all bucks shed between December and April (Midwest). That is roughly a 4+ month period. We are also pretty sure testosterone levels lowering as the season ends is a contributing factor. We also are pretty sure stress contributes as to how early/late a buck sheds.

I also believe we as hunters have a better knowledge of when bucks shed than some research guys that never sat in the woods when this stuff happens. I also don't put much stock in penned up animals in a controlled environment on food and mineral supplements.

I would think it would hard for a buck to shed the same time every year with what we actually know.
You can fool some of the bucks, all of the time, and fool all of the bucks, some of the time, however you certainly can't fool all of the bucks, all of the time.


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