Do you think buck body size is a factor in antler size?

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dan
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Re: Do you think buck body size is a factor in antler size?

Unread postby dan » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:15 pm

Our research has shown that a buck does not always transmit his antler qualities to his offspring. For example, a buck with very poor antler qualities may produce offspring with very good antler qualities and vice versa. This means there is [glow=red]very little that can be done to practically manage genetics in a wild deer population[/glow] because we cannot determine which deer will pass the superior genes to its offspring. Additionally, even if we could select a "superior" buck, 50 percent of the offspring's genetic information is supplied by the doe, and there is no way to identify the superior doe!

I "somewhat" disagree with this... Yes. A mature buck with a perfect 12 point rack may produce some offspring with inferior racks. And YES, we don't know what the genetics are for the doe... However, we do know that the 12 point racked buck is spreading some of his genes and even if his offspring don't produce "12 point racks" we know his genetics are within those offspring, and when they cross with another "12 point rack genetic" either from a doe, or from a buck, another 12 pointer is much more likely than if we shot all the 10's and 12's and let the mature 6's and 8's breed... Yes, it is difficult to alter a wild herd, but on a big enough property, or with participating neighbors, I think you can make some difference...

The problem with most management practices is that they either kill based on age or score, rather than letting the superior genes mature. A lot of properties have a 3 y/o minimum. And in this case they generally shoot the best 3 year olds leaving the the small 3 year olds to live another year and breed. And whether they want to admit it or not, are generally killing the superior 2 year olds and "thinking, or claiming" they are 3... In a perfect management world we would wait for the superior bucks to mature to 6 or 7 years old and shoot the inferior bucks at ages 3 and older. Harder to do, than say, though.

There is a property in Michigan called the sanctuary. Years ago they fenced in a wild herd. At 1st they had bucks that matured with 6 or 8 point racks. They started shooting all the 6 pointers and eventually ended up with 8 and 10 point racks. They then started shooting all the 8 point racks... As of now, after years of select harvest they have monsters running around.
Yea, yea, I know its fenced. But it does show you can make a difference in some places if the properties are big enough and people follow the rules.


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Arrowbender
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Re: Do you think buck body size is a factor in antler size?

Unread postby Arrowbender » Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:28 am

Along those same lines, I find it interesting that APR's are kind of doing the same thing. Any 1 y/o that sports a superior rack (4 points on one side) is fair game. Thus a higher chance for that buck to be killed before ever breeding once.
I understand that the spikes that are left to mature can grow into "trophies" but I also believe that outstanding 1 y/o's have a pretty good chance at turning into something special as well.
Now with that being said; I am supporter of APR. It's better than not doing anyhing when the rest of your management program promotes killing yearling bucks.
IMO

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dan
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Re: Do you think buck body size is a factor in antler size?

Unread postby dan » Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:14 am

Arrowbender wrote:Along those same lines, I find it interesting that APR's are kind of doing the same thing. Any 1 y/o that sports a superior rack (4 points on one side) is fair game. Thus a higher chance for that buck to be killed before ever breeding once.
I understand that the spikes that are left to mature can grow into "trophies" but I also believe that outstanding 1 y/o's have a pretty good chance at turning into something special as well.
Now with that being said; I am supporter of APR. It's better than not doing anyhing when the rest of your management program promotes killing yearling bucks.
IMO

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I totally agree with that.
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SamPotter
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Re: Do you think buck body size is a factor in antler size?

Unread postby SamPotter » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:52 am

In a single location I've seen where the bigger bodied bucks will have modest antlers and the biggest-racked bucks have modest bodies. If you are comparing Coues and Key deer to the bucks of Saskatchewan, then sure, there are bigger racks on the bigger bodied deer of the north.

However, have you ever watched a hunt in Texas and some 160" typical walks out that only weighs about 125#? The proportion of the rack to the body is silly looking. Imagine what a rack would score if you kept this same proportion but it was on a 300# buck? You'd probably get something like this:

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Re: Do you think buck body size is a factor in antler size?

Unread postby Autumn Ninja » Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:12 am

No, when you compare apples to apples (species/sub-species/region) there is no correlation.

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Re: Do you think buck body size is a factor in antler size?

Unread postby JoeRE » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:15 am

Autumn Ninja wrote:No, when you compare apples to apples (species/sub-species/region) there is no correlation.

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Yes, the genes that dictate antler and body size potential are completely separate and not related I think.

Just like the biggest antlered buck, mid 160s, I got with a bow had hooves the size of a big doe. He had an average body size for a mature buck (5/6 year old) in the 240ish live weight range. The heaviest mature buck I have shot weighted 255 live and was a 5 or 6 year old 135" 8.
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Re: Do you think buck body size is a factor in antler size?

Unread postby BigHunt » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:07 am

Interesting topic. ..

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dan
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Re: Do you think buck body size is a factor in antler size?

Unread postby dan » Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:38 am

JoeRE wrote:
Autumn Ninja wrote:No, when you compare apples to apples (species/sub-species/region) there is no correlation.

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Yes, the genes that dictate antler and body size potential are completely separate and not related I think.

Just like the biggest antlered buck, mid 160s, I got with a bow had hooves the size of a big doe. He had an average body size for a mature buck (5/6 year old) in the 240ish live weight range. The heaviest mature buck I have shot weighted 255 live and was a 5 or 6 year old 135" 8.

My highest scoring typical and my highest scoring gross buck both weighed only about 170 dressed. But, I have taken many other heavier bucks.


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