Lets talk deer herd genetics.

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Stanley
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Lets talk deer herd genetics.

Unread postby Stanley » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:56 pm

The other thread got me to thinking about this. How do you gauge genetics? Genetics in a deer herd are kind of a complex quantity rather than perceptible substance. Do you look for symmetry? Do you look for big body size? Do you look for number of points? Do you look for mass?

Do you really know for sure what genetics are good and what genetics are poor? I have never been able to put any sense in what genetics are good in a deer herd. I know I don't know, that much I do know. I have some ideas/opinions but so does everyone else. So lets hear your interpretation of what genetics it takes to grow a big racked buck.


You can fool some of the bucks, all of the time, and fool all of the bucks, some of the time, however you certainly can't fool all of the bucks, all of the time.
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Re: Lets talk deer herd genetics.

Unread postby SamPotter » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:29 pm

All I know is genetics are beyond our control. That's what makes hunting so interesting to me- you never know what you're going to get.
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Re: Lets talk deer herd genetics.

Unread postby BigHills BuckHunter » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:22 pm

Don't know much about it all. I have heard genetics from the doe go into the bucks rack size.

We look for tall rather than wide. Just our style.

I don't believe in killing spikes. I don't think they are inferior who will only grow 100 inch racks. I've seen studies they can grow into 140 inch deer.

Something interesting: a common trait in our genetics the past 6 years is split brow tines on left side.
Now we are getting pictures including a good kill of bucks that have kickers at the base.
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Re: Lets talk deer herd genetics.

Unread postby iowa whitetail » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:24 pm

I think you take 5 bucks from the same blood line give them the nutrition they need the age they need and not two of them will look alike. I think a buck puts on so much antler but you never know how he is going to do it.
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Re: Lets talk deer herd genetics.

Unread postby PK_ » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:34 pm

Genetics are equally diverse, age and soil dictate whether potential is realized or not.
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Re: Lets talk deer herd genetics.

Unread postby UntouchableNess » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:39 pm

I've wondered if we shoot what we like, aren't we genetically selecting against it? I mean you are taking out a breeder that could spread those genetics. On the up side, odds are he probably already has. I've read that hunters trying to "cull" for a certain antler characteristic usually have little impact in the end.

As mentioned by others, I've heard that the doe plays a large role in this. Also mentioned was nutrition. I hope this is the case, cause I sure don't want to stop shooting larger bucks. ;)
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Re: Lets talk deer herd genetics.

Unread postby lynchpin » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:46 pm

Very interesting topic. Just read the following study listed below... I feel it is a good read and relivant to the conversation on this thread and the other.
The take away from the article for me was that genetics are most important when a buck can fully express his genetic capability... But to reach genetic potential ...deer need the correct nutrition, age, and quality health. So in some respect.. Nutrion and health trump genetics ... And that is why we spend so much money on food plots ect... To hold more bucks... The more bucks you have on your property with good health and nutrition... The greater chance they have of reaching Full potential and the better chance you have of seeing great bucks and the occasional Jaw dropper!

I am sure there are many more reviews on deer genetics... This seems to support Stans original post in the other thread.

http://www.awdhr.com/whitetailgenetics.htm

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Re: Lets talk deer herd genetics.

Unread postby kenn1320 » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:53 pm

The doe has input on the offsprings rack from what I have read. People see what they think is an inferior genetic buck and want to shoot him. I think its important to realize it was his mom and dad that created that combination and if you dont want more of the same, one or both of them need to be kept from breeding with each other again. In the wild its virtually impossible to know who that deers parents are and why its likely out of our hands. I do find it interesting that you do see some similar traits amoung bucks in the area. My dads cousin shot a no brow tine 6 years ago on my dads place. We have not seen another buck like that, they have all had brow tines, at least on one side. Well this year he shoots another one that is almost identicle. Crazy coincidence or what?
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Re: Lets talk deer herd genetics.

Unread postby Autumn Ninja » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:37 pm

B&C has some bucks with awesome mass but a lot of them don't. Some bucks have real tall racks but a lot if them don't. Some bucks are very wide but a lot of them aren't. Some bucks have a lot of points while others don't. But.....

The one antler characteristic that nearly all B&C bucks do share is long main beams.

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Re: Lets talk deer herd genetics.

Unread postby JV NC » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:43 pm

If you think about it, the doe controls more than 50% of the genetics of a herd.

In a free-ranging herd....if you're trying to manage for genetics (and don't know which does are the most genetically superior), you're peeing in the wind.
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Re: Lets talk deer herd genetics.

Unread postby Stanley » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:00 pm

Just some food for thought. Are genetics merely a byproduct of survival of the fittest? When Iowas deer herd was slim to none how did genetics evolve? Like I said before 40-50 years ago Iowa had very few deer and even fewer big bucks. What caused those genetics to come into play? Could it be the deer that ate the best developed into the healthier animals? Survival of the fittest may be what we see today as genetics. :think:

Something other than genetics caused the deer numbers to climb. Once the deer numbers started to climb bigger racked bucks developed. Even today some counties produce very few big racked bucks. Those counties are also counties with sparse deer populations. These counties also have the least amount of agriculture and timber combination. This cant be coincidence.
You can fool some of the bucks, all of the time, and fool all of the bucks, some of the time, however you certainly can't fool all of the bucks, all of the time.
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Re: Lets talk deer herd genetics.

Unread postby DEERSLAYER » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:45 pm

Stanley wrote:...Do you really know for sure what genetics are good and what genetics are poor? I have never been able to put any sense in what genetics are good in a deer herd. I know I don't know, that much I do know. I have some ideas/opinions but so does everyone else...

ALL genetics are good. If a buck has a small rack it doesn't make him inferior. Just inferior to you. He may in fact be superior due to body size for the climate, disease resistance, etc.
Stanley wrote:...So lets hear your interpretation of what genetics it takes to grow a big racked buck.

Now you have specified a specific trait as superior. The simple answer is the genetics that put the most bone on their head, but genetics for good health would also be desirable.

There are other important factors of course like age, nutrition and overall health caused by outside sources. The proper development of the mother while growing up and the overall health of the mother before and during pregnancy can also have an impact. The timing of birth and weather (especially during the first year of life) can affect ultimate antler size too. Because of these other influences a buck could be stunted early in life to the point it never achieves it's genetic potential.

BigHills BuckHunter wrote:...I don't believe in killing spikes. I don't think they are inferior who will only grow 100 inch racks. I've seen studies they can grow into 140 inch deer...

I can remember a study where a yearling buck had a spindley 3" spike on one side and a 2" spike with a 1" brow tine on the other. Technically he wasn't a spike but close enough in my mind. At 5.5 he scored 201 and some change.

Autumn Ninja wrote:B&C has some bucks with awesome mass but a lot of them don't. Some bucks have real tall racks but a lot if them don't. Some bucks are very wide but a lot of them aren't. Some bucks have a lot of points while others don't. But.....

The one antler characteristic that nearly all B&C bucks do share is long main beams.

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X2! Learned about this from you AJ.

JV NC wrote:If you think about it, the doe controls more than 50% of the genetics of a herd...

I would say it depends on the parents involved, but from the studies I have read I would say it's roughly 50/50 overall.

JV NC wrote:...In a free-ranging herd....if you're trying to manage for genetics (and don't know which does are the most genetically superior), you're peeing in the wind.

Pretty much!

Stanley wrote:Just some food for thought. Are genetics merely a byproduct of survival of the fittest?...

Survival of the fittest for the conditions. That is why it's important to have a diverse gene pool. A buck with small antlers may have the genetics to survive or thrive in a certain environment where a buck with large antlered genetics may not. However, genetics for big antlers are still buried in the DNA somewhere and they will make their way to the surface eventually.

Stanley wrote:Something other than genetics caused the deer numbers to climb. Once the deer numbers started to climb bigger racked bucks developed. Even today some counties produce very few big racked bucks. Those counties are also counties with sparse deer populations. These counties also have the least amount of agriculture and timber combination. This cant be coincidence.

More deer numbers = higher odds of exceptional genetics for large antlers coming out = more big bucks. Assuming a fair amount of hunting pressure then less cover typically = less bucks making it to older age class = less big bucks.

Ultimately, in a free ranging herd, I think age is the most important, nutrition is number two and genetics are last. Especially here in the Midwest where I think almost all bucks have the genetic ability to at least reach P&Y status with most of those being able to hit the 140" mark or better. In a perfect world genetics would come first, but of course we don't live in a perfect world. Give me both age and nutrition and I will have big antlered bucks. Genetics will take care of themselves.

There is more to this topic, but that is the gist of it IMHO.
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Re: Lets talk deer herd genetics.

Unread postby JV NC » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:22 pm

I would say it depends on the parents involved, but from the studies I have read I would say it's roughly 50/50 overall.


That's not where I was headed with this. If you think about it, the doe contributes more than 50% of the herd genetics.

Let's look at it this way.....

A single doe can drop twin fawns by two different sires.

Wouldn't that make this correct? :idea:
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Re: Lets talk deer herd genetics.

Unread postby SamPotter » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:51 pm

JV NC wrote:
I would say it depends on the parents involved, but from the studies I have read I would say it's roughly 50/50 overall.


That's not where I was headed with this. If you think about it, the doe contributes more than 50% of the herd genetics.

Let's look at it this way.....

A single doe can drop twin fawns by two different sires.

Wouldn't that make this correct? :idea:


Yes, but a buck can also breed multiple does, or all of them for that matter. Because yearling bucks disperse from their birthplace in distances measured in miles there is absolutely no way to influence a wild herd's genetics. None of the antlered bucks on your property were born there (excluding the theory that if you kill the mother the buck fawn will not disperse). You are stuck with whatever genetics you have. Biologically, the doe contributes 50% of the genes to the fawn and the buck the other 50%, right down the middle. Every trait the offspring display is a combination of both parents.

Having more bucks is like having more lottery tickets even though the genetics are no different. It would take thousands of years to see a significant genetic change in the wild from a "survival of the fittest" selection trend.
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Re: Lets talk deer herd genetics.

Unread postby Autumn Ninja » Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:34 am

SamPotter wrote:It would take thousands of years to see a significant genetic change in the wild from a "survival of the fittest" selection trend.

And to think, I was lucky enough to see it happen over a the last 30 years.

The deer I hunt here in ky. where brought here from Wisconsin. Back in the 70's early 80's a mature buck that would dress 230-240lbs was not uncommon. On avg, the dress weight of a mature buck has dropped about 50lbs.

A mature buck that will dress 200lbs is a giant now.

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