Determining difference between a 4 and 5 yr old deer

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BassBoysLLP
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Re: Determining difference between a 4 and 5 yr old deer

Unread postby BassBoysLLP » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:17 am

Stanley wrote:
headgear wrote:
Stanley wrote:In my opinion genetics has little to do with producing big bucks. I call it luck of the draw for a buck to produce a world class rack. Big bucks are freaks of nature not the norm.


I don't know Stan, I might say genetics are the most important element to growing a world class deer. Without them all the food and age in the world isn't going to mean a whole lot. Your freaks of nature comment applies here, they don't get to be freaks of nature without those genes.


If you think about what is involved in growing a big rack, genetics plays the smallest part. Not all genetically superior bucks grow big racks. Not all older bucks grow big racks. Not all bucks that have nutrition rich diets grow big racks. Not all healthy bucks grow big racks. It takes a combination of these things for a buck to be lucky enough to grow a big rack. These bucks are the freaks of the herd not the norm. Now, the more bucks in the herd the better the chance that one will be a freak and produce a huge rack.

We also cant forget about the throw back genetics that could produce a big rack in an inferior genetic pool. You have runts which are also freaks of nature as well as giants that are freaks of nature. This is why in my opinion genetics is on the bottom of the list. You can't grow many big racks on a bark and leaf diet. The Midwest is considered the geographical area to kill a good buck. The Midwest also happens to be one huge food plot. The areas with the biggest buck populations produce the most big bucks.

You can see this even on a smaller scale from county to county within a state. The southern states all have good genetics but produce very few large racked bucks. I think this should be considered evidence that genetics are not what it takes to produce large racked bucks. The southern states lack nutrition to produce large rack bucks consistently. In my opinion the perfect storm is; nutrition/age/buck numbers/health/freaks/geographical area/luck of the draw/genetics, put these things together and you might get a world class rack.


I agree partially Stanley. The buck numbers is a sticking point, it doesnt work a lot of times. Ive seen numerous cases where a smaller rack, bully buck takes over an area and pushes out your target from the locals (even boone class). Not to mention the other social stresses identified in several studies. It is tough to "stack" nice bucks on properies. The best bucks are generally not fighters based on my experience. They have clean racks almost every year. The social component is HUGE!

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Re: Determining difference between a 4 and 5 yr old deer

Unread postby headgear » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:19 am

Stanley wrote:If you think about what is involved in growing a big rack, genetics plays the smallest part. Not all genetically superior bucks grow big racks. Not all older bucks grow big racks. Not all bucks that have nutrition rich diets grow big racks. Not all healthy bucks grow big racks. It takes a combination of these things for a buck to be lucky enough to grow a big rack. These bucks are the freaks of the herd not the norm. Now, the more bucks in the herd the better the chance that one will be a freak and produce a huge rack.

We also cant forget about the throw back genetics that could produce a big rack in an inferior genetic pool. You have runts which are also freaks of nature as well as giants that are freaks of nature. This is why in my opinion genetics is on the bottom of the list. You can't grow many big racks on a bark and leaf diet. The Midwest is considered the geographical area to kill a good buck. The Midwest also happens to be one huge food plot. The areas with the biggest buck populations produce the most big bucks.


Again what you might call a freak of nature I would call a buck with the right genes to grow a big rack under any conditions. Plenty of big deer in the bigwoods where I hunt, even a few booners and really the only way they get that big up here is to have the proper genetics to grow a big rack. Not everyone can be a professional athlete, they need the right comgo of genetics and a few other things to get them to the top, I think its similar with deer. Either way I think we are kind of splitting hairs here.

More importantly I think a lot of the nutrition/age/genetics stuff kind of depends on where you hunt and what you are after. If you are after a true giant you need that deer to have the right genes to get there (freak of nature). If you hunt some so so public land the most important thing you need is a deer with age on him because most of the bucks never see their 3rd birthday anyway. They all need the nutrition and an argument can be made that any one is more important than the other but that might depend on our goals.
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Re: Determining difference between a 4 and 5 yr old deer

Unread postby SamPotter » Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:42 am

Dan- can you see if you can get trail cam pics of that big 8 from the past couple of years. Seeing how he has a lot of us fooled it would be really interesting to see the progression...

As far as the discussion about genetics/age/nutrition; I am a dairy farmer and run a very aggressive genetic breeding program on our farm. We transfer 50-60 embryos from the very best cows on our farm into the rest of the herd every week and the result is that 60-70% of all calves born come from the top 2% of the cows in the herd. What I am saying is I am really into genetics and domestic animal breeding (especially cattle) is extremely aggressive. The cows of today are light years ahead of your grandfather's cows.

To draw from some of the earlier discussion; a little bit of what everyone is saying is true. In order to get a truly huge buck (something unheard of in your area), everything has to be in place; genetics, nutrition, lucky breaks, and age. However, no matter what happens, if the buck doesn't have the genes, then none of the other factors matter. At the same time the buck will need to have a fair amount of the other factors to express those genes.

pH level of the soil seems to a big factor too. Our place in the Adirondacks has received an unfair amount of acid rain over the last 150 years. Many lakes and ponds became too acidic for fish to survive. Since the Clean Air Act was passed, the pH levels have started to come back up. It also seems like antler quality has improved especially mass.

There was an earlier statement about which antler characteristics are inherited from which parent. There is no way of knowing, but it is a fact that each parent contributes 1/2 of each chromosome, each of which contribute to different characteristics of the resulting offspring. Each chromosome can have segments that do different things. It is not likely that there is just one spot for brow tines or main beam length, rather a series of segments in the DNA sequence. Some genes can be a simple dominant/recessive (albinism) while others are co-dominant or incompletely dominant.
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Re: Determining difference between a 4 and 5 yr old deer

Unread postby JV NC » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:31 am

Code: Select all

However, no matter what happens, if the buck doesn't have the genes, then none of the other factors matter.


Well, with all due respect, if the proper nutrition isn't available, and he's killed as a 1.5yo, then his genetics don't matter. This can be spun to bolster anyone's particular POV.

To grow the truly freaks of nature, all of these (and possibly more) factors must be present. But, at least "I" (singular) was speaking "in general" as to the things (in order of importance) I felt contributed to growing big deer (not A big deer.....but a number of them). They are - nutrition, age structure and finally genetics.
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Re: Determining difference between a 4 and 5 yr old deer

Unread postby Stanley » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:54 am

BassBoysLLP wrote:
Stanley wrote:
headgear wrote:
Stanley wrote:In my opinion genetics has little to do with producing big bucks. I call it luck of the draw for a buck to produce a world class rack. Big bucks are freaks of nature not the norm.


I don't know Stan, I might say genetics are the most important element to growing a world class deer. Without them all the food and age in the world isn't going to mean a whole lot. Your freaks of nature comment applies here, they don't get to be freaks of nature without those genes.


If you think about what is involved in growing a big rack, genetics plays the smallest part. Not all genetically superior bucks grow big racks. Not all older bucks grow big racks. Not all bucks that have nutrition rich diets grow big racks. Not all healthy bucks grow big racks. It takes a combination of these things for a buck to be lucky enough to grow a big rack. These bucks are the freaks of the herd not the norm. Now, the more bucks in the herd the better the chance that one will be a freak and produce a huge rack.

We also cant forget about the throw back genetics that could produce a big rack in an inferior genetic pool. You have runts which are also freaks of nature as well as giants that are freaks of nature. This is why in my opinion genetics is on the bottom of the list. You can't grow many big racks on a bark and leaf diet. The Midwest is considered the geographical area to kill a good buck. The Midwest also happens to be one huge food plot. The areas with the biggest buck populations produce the most big bucks.

You can see this even on a smaller scale from county to county within a state. The southern states all have good genetics but produce very few large racked bucks. I think this should be considered evidence that genetics are not what it takes to produce large racked bucks. The southern states lack nutrition to produce large rack bucks consistently. In my opinion the perfect storm is; nutrition/age/buck numbers/health/freaks/geographical area/luck of the draw/genetics, put these things together and you might get a world class rack.


I agree partially Stanley. The buck numbers is a sticking point, it doesnt work a lot of times. Ive seen numerous cases where a smaller rack, bully buck takes over an area and pushes out your target from the locals (even boone class). Not to mention the other social stresses identified in several studies. It is tough to "stack" nice bucks on properies. The best bucks are generally not fighters based on my experience. They have clean racks almost every year. The social component is HUGE!

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Even if a good racked buck is pushed out of an area he still breeds in another area. So I don't see where this would factor into producing big racked bucks. I have personally seen certain areas stacked up with good racked bucks.
You can fool some of the bucks, all of the time, and fool all of the bucks, some of the time, however you certainly can't fool all of the bucks, all of the time.
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Re: Determining difference between a 4 and 5 yr old deer

Unread postby Stanley » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:58 am

JV NC wrote:

Code: Select all

However, no matter what happens, if the buck doesn't have the genes, then none of the other factors matter.


Well, with all due respect, if the proper nutrition isn't available, and he's killed as a 1.5yo, then his genetics don't matter. This can be spun to bolster anyone's particular POV.

To grow the truly freaks of nature, all of these (and possibly more) factors must be present. But, at least "I" (singular) was speaking "in general" as to the things (in order of importance) I felt contributed to growing big deer (not A big deer.....but a number of them). They are - nutrition, age structure and finally genetics.

I think buck population should be thrown in also. Numbers = chances for freaks to surface. I know the counties that have big deer numbers produce the most big racked bucks in Iowa. I do agree with your order of importance.
You can fool some of the bucks, all of the time, and fool all of the bucks, some of the time, however you certainly can't fool all of the bucks, all of the time.
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Re: Determining difference between a 4 and 5 yr old deer

Unread postby Stanley » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:11 am

headgear wrote:
Stanley wrote:If you think about what is involved in growing a big rack, genetics plays the smallest part. Not all genetically superior bucks grow big racks. Not all older bucks grow big racks. Not all bucks that have nutrition rich diets grow big racks. Not all healthy bucks grow big racks. It takes a combination of these things for a buck to be lucky enough to grow a big rack. These bucks are the freaks of the herd not the norm. Now, the more bucks in the herd the better the chance that one will be a freak and produce a huge rack.

We also cant forget about the throw back genetics that could produce a big rack in an inferior genetic pool. You have runts which are also freaks of nature as well as giants that are freaks of nature. This is why in my opinion genetics is on the bottom of the list. You can't grow many big racks on a bark and leaf diet. The Midwest is considered the geographical area to kill a good buck. The Midwest also happens to be one huge food plot. The areas with the biggest buck populations produce the most big bucks.


Again what you might call a freak of nature I would call a buck with the right genes to grow a big rack under any conditions. Plenty of big deer in the bigwoods where I hunt, even a few booners and really the only way they get that big up here is to have the proper genetics to grow a big rack. Not everyone can be a professional athlete, they need the right comgo of genetics and a few other things to get them to the top, I think its similar with deer. Either way I think we are kind of splitting hairs here.

More importantly I think a lot of the nutrition/age/genetics stuff kind of depends on where you hunt and what you are after. If you are after a true giant you need that deer to have the right genes to get there (freak of nature). If you hunt some so so public land the most important thing you need is a deer with age on him because most of the bucks never see their 3rd birthday anyway. They all need the nutrition and an argument can be made that any one is more important than the other but that might depend on our goals.


I do know this it is easier to kill a good buck where there are a lot of bucks rather than a low number of bucks. Genetics is a fictional factor (does contribute in the genetic scheme), buck numbers, available nutrition, age are all tangible factors. This is why I put nonfictional contributors over fictional contributors as being more important. Just my honest opinion. Great topic for conversation.
You can fool some of the bucks, all of the time, and fool all of the bucks, some of the time, however you certainly can't fool all of the bucks, all of the time.
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Re: Determining difference between a 4 and 5 yr old deer

Unread postby BassBoysLLP » Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:05 am

Stanley wrote:
BassBoysLLP wrote:
Stanley wrote:
headgear wrote:
Stanley wrote:In my opinion genetics has little to do with producing big bucks. I call it luck of the draw for a buck to produce a world class rack. Big bucks are freaks of nature not the norm.


I don't know Stan, I might say genetics are the most important element to growing a world class deer. Without them all the food and age in the world isn't going to mean a whole lot. Your freaks of nature comment applies here, they don't get to be freaks of nature without those genes.


If you think about what is involved in growing a big rack, genetics plays the smallest part. Not all genetically superior bucks grow big racks. Not all older bucks grow big racks. Not all bucks that have nutrition rich diets grow big racks. Not all healthy bucks grow big racks. It takes a combination of these things for a buck to be lucky enough to grow a big rack. These bucks are the freaks of the herd not the norm. Now, the more bucks in the herd the better the chance that one will be a freak and produce a huge rack.

We also cant forget about the throw back genetics that could produce a big rack in an inferior genetic pool. You have runts which are also freaks of nature as well as giants that are freaks of nature. This is why in my opinion genetics is on the bottom of the list. You can't grow many big racks on a bark and leaf diet. The Midwest is considered the geographical area to kill a good buck. The Midwest also happens to be one huge food plot. The areas with the biggest buck populations produce the most big bucks.

You can see this even on a smaller scale from county to county within a state. The southern states all have good genetics but produce very few large racked bucks. I think this should be considered evidence that genetics are not what it takes to produce large racked bucks. The southern states lack nutrition to produce large rack bucks consistently. In my opinion the perfect storm is; nutrition/age/buck numbers/health/freaks/geographical area/luck of the draw/genetics, put these things together and you might get a world class rack.


I agree partially Stanley. The buck numbers is a sticking point, it doesnt work a lot of times. Ive seen numerous cases where a smaller rack, bully buck takes over an area and pushes out your target from the locals (even boone class). Not to mention the other social stresses identified in several studies. It is tough to "stack" nice bucks on properies. The best bucks are generally not fighters based on my experience. They have clean racks almost every year. The social component is HUGE!

[ Post made via Android ] Image



Even if a good racked buck is pushed out of an area he still breeds in another area. So I don't see where this would factor into producing big racked bucks. I have personally seen certain areas stacked up with good racked bucks.


Once you push out your target you are no longer hunting him. That is the part of taking "management" bucks.

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Re: Determining difference between a 4 and 5 yr old deer

Unread postby JV NC » Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:13 am

In a free-ranging herd, how do you pick out the "management" does?
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Re: Determining difference between a 4 and 5 yr old deer

Unread postby Edcyclopedia » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:21 pm

Shaq wasn't produced by a couple that was vertically challenged...

I've always said that the Doe is half the offspring (I believe I'm correct on this at least :mrgreen: ) and unless we let the Doe's get to 4.5 we won't know how big her potential is.
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Re: Determining difference between a 4 and 5 yr old deer

Unread postby headgear » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:49 pm

Edcyclopedia wrote:Shaq wasn't produced by a couple that was vertically challenged...


A great example ed, I'm no basketball guy but a 7 foot center with top end athletic ability is exactly what I am talking about. No amout of training or nutrition will get them their, they are "born" with it. Yes you can spin it are argue for this or that and you might be right some or most of the time but take away the genetics and its 100% not going to happen.

Put 100 average deer in an area with great nutrition and let them grow old, you won't see an exceptional deer there. Throw 100 bucks with high end genes up in the bigwoods with average nutrition and I bet we see some giants.
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Re: Determining difference between a 4 and 5 yr old deer

Unread postby iowa whitetail » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:58 pm

JV NC wrote:In a free-ranging herd, how do you pick out the "management" does?

well for the most part doe's will travel in small groups. So when they come by you try to figure out witch one is the alfa doe she will the first one or the last one in the group and is normally the one that is on edge more than the others by that i mean nervous and aware of whats going on around her. Thats the one you want to take she is the oldest and smartest.
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Re: Determining difference between a 4 and 5 yr old deer

Unread postby Stanley » Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:03 pm

headgear wrote:
Edcyclopedia wrote:Shaq wasn't produced by a couple that was vertically challenged...


A great example ed, I'm no basketball guy but a 7 foot center with top end athletic ability is exactly what I am talking about. No amout of training or nutrition will get them their, they are "born" with it. Yes you can spin it are argue for this or that and you might be right some or most of the time but take away the genetics and its 100% not going to happen.

Put 100 average deer in an area with great nutrition and let them grow old, you won't see an exceptional deer there. Throw 100 bucks with high end genes up in the bigwoods with average nutrition and I bet we see some giants.

I would put a good amount of money out of those 100 you will see an exceptional animal. Doesn't that describe the Midwest? Lots of bucks and nutrition?

I'm also pretty sure Shaq wouldn't have been a freak if he ate bark and leaves growing up. I know a lot of tall guys with much shorter brothers. I would have to compare Shaq to a pen raised buck. Pen raised bucks are on full feed with minerals and supplements. Can't use those as comparison. :naughty: ;) :lol:
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Re: Determining difference between a 4 and 5 yr old deer

Unread postby headgear » Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:22 pm

I give up Stan. If you say we can take a bunch of 5'0" to 5'8" parents are grow some 7 foots kids well who I am to question it. ;)

I do think your brother comment kind of proves my point, I know a family of 5'9" - 5'10" guys, except one brother is 6'4". They all ate the same food and water and all grew up in the same house. If its not genetics they must have been feeding the one kid pixie dust. :D
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Re: Determining difference between a 4 and 5 yr old deer

Unread postby iowa whitetail » Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:54 pm

i would have to agree with stan. i think age is the most important then nut. everyone says they dont have big deer well how many 5 year old deer have you seen? probably not many cause the get guned down so really it just means they get killed before they reach maturity.


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